Sardinians

[Alan]

@Angela

Well I do actually think they are based on assumption, because the Mediterranean component map is based on Dodecad v3 I remember. And in Dodecad v3 there was no specific Anatolian cluster as in Globe13. There was just Turkish_D and Turks and both had ~28% Mediterranean. Taking that into account and seeing how they are identical to the Mediterranean figures of Globe13. We can use Globe13 for this analyses. And in Globe13 we have West Anatolian and Central Anatolian samples and they are identical.

I am not trying to criticize Maciamo for what he did. Back than we didn't had this specfic Anatolian cluster and he assumed that because West Anatolia was once Greek, that this region might have more of the Mediterranean component. But back than even I told him that this is speculativ and some results of West Anatolians I had seen were identical to those in Central Anatolia. But now we have confirmation for that.

So the map is slightly incorrect.

That brings us back to Coon's idea that Nordics are just depigmented-and perhaps slightly altered-Mediterraneans.)

Nordics are definitely just depigmented and slightly altered Mediterraneans. This fact was pointed out even by racist German anthropologists. Who saw the skeletons of Anatolian farmers who looked Robust Mediterranean.

This is also the only logical explanation. Thin, high nose bridges and longer heads are kind of things which are typical to evolve in hotter climate. While in northern, colder latitudes it is more likely that people will adopt to snub/les prominent noses and rounder/broader cranial features. However most modern West Eurasians are a cross of both features.

 

[Fire Haired14]

None of them look like each other. This is true for most of the world. There is no Sardinian-look.

 

[Angela]

In terms of pigmentation, in some studies the Sardinians do have the lowest levels of derived SLC42A5 in Europe, although close to those for some Iberians. In other studies it is some Iberians who have the lowest levels rather than the Sardinians.





This is a map which illustrates the cline quite well.

This is the distribution of derived SLC24A5:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...al_distribution_of_SNP_rs1426654-A_allele.png

I think a number of factors may be at play. If you take a look at the preprint of the Iain Mathieson paper, the Anatolian farmers were fixed for derived SLC24A5, and about 40% derived for SLC42A5, what used to be called the specifically "European" depigmenting snp. Well, not quite, as it turns out.

The WHG were not derived for it. The EHG, at least from the two samples we have, were in fact derived for it. From the data we have on the Central and Iberian Neolithic, it seems to me that after admixture the levels for derived SLC42A5 actually went down, and particularly in the Iberian Neolithic (the same might be true of the Italian Neolithic but so far we just have Oetzi and a sample from Remedello). This is obscured a bit in the Mathieson et al preprint, in my opinion, because they inexplicably chose to combine the WHG and the EHG, who had very different pigmentation profiles.

See the updated Mathieson et al pre-print here:
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2015/10/10/016477

If I'm correct, and the admixture with the WHG actually "darkened" them a bit, why the rebound in central Europe, but not in Iberia? Is it possible that the "WHG" in central Europe were slightly admixed with the EHG? The whole relationship between the WHG and the EHG needs some clarification, in my opinion. The stats for EHG as a mix of ANE and WHG failed slightly, but there is some relationship, and I think the two (WHG and EHG) get conflated in certain calculators.

Fwiw, I've always found it ironic that the WHG, who plot rather "north" on PCAs, and pull certain modern groups "north" as well, were most probably "darker" than the Anatolian farmers who came from the south-east, and might have made the early farmers slightly "darker" after admixture.

Anyway, this is just speculation. It's just something to think about. I think we need more data before we can definitively say how these changes took hold and spread. It's particularly important to keep in mind that, as I've said again and again, pigmentation is a polygenic trait. As important as derived SLC42A5 is, it's only one snp. I think the TYR snps also deserve some attention.

I do think that it's pretty clear that selection played a part in these changes. We have a new paper out that supports the Mathieson et al proposition that there was selection for reduced height in Sardinians, although Mathieson said, I believe, that it was also selected for in Iberia. The data does show that the Sardinians are shorter than the Anatolian farmers.

Mathieson also states that there was selection against light eyes in southern Europe over time, although I would like to see more data on this. I don't think they've totally figured out how and why light eyes might be beneficial in certain environments and not so beneficial in others. Certainly as to skin pigmentation and alleles that allow for deep tanning it would seem logical that extremely fair skin that won't tan would not be optimal for the burning summer sun of some Mediterranean areas of Europe.

More recent gene flows may also have a part to play. As the map above illustrates, I think, gene flow from North Africa with or even after the Neolithic that might have been enriched by additional flows from SSA might have carried ancestral states for these alleles that have affected pigmentation. Sardinians do show some North African, as do some other parts of southern Europe. I would be willing to wager that the samples from Sardinia that had the lowest derived levels of SLC42A5 were those from areas that had been affected by those specific gene flows.

 

[Sile]

Again, I have no idea what you are actually trying to tell me? What has this to do with my comment that modern Central and North Europeans are today more WHG than EEF and it is soley based on the Indo Europeans who brought some fresh WHG (additional to Teal) and diseases with them which killed off many of the farmers and the momentum for other WHG groups to re expand. So I can't quite understand in what way does this contradict my argument? My argument was even if modern Central Europeans were more EEF if they went through the same selection pressure and Vitamin D deficiency in higher latitudes, the result would have been the same. Light hair and pigmentation is not the result of a specific ancestry it's a combination of enviornment, diat and genetics. And we have a Late Neolithic Hungarian sample who is EEF and is the first ancient individual to combine blond hair, blue eyes and light skin. This is a confirmation for this hypothesis, Dienekes also pointed that back than.

Genediker has tested these noelithic german famers with 95% EEF and circa 5300BC and they where all blue or green eyed , light skinned and non-freckled people. The hungarian came much later and did not introduce blond-hair , blue eyes etc.

What Meyer states is soley based on his opinion. I am not sure if you know it, but fact is that Suttgart is up to 90-95% identical to Anatolian farmers. One is a theory which might or might not be true, the other a fact. But then even if those EEF farmers really came from the Black Sea (what is quite possible) from where did they start off do you think? Do you believe they are natives of this region? While they are identical to 6000 BC Anatolian farmers in a region where farming started? Obviously they took the root from Anatolia through the Balkans to the north of the Black Sea. That means the north/northwest of the Black Sea would have been a layover.

So do you see why the statement, "they didn't came from Anatolia" is incorrect? I am certanly following fresh water but I don't know if you are.

I should explain what Meyer was referring too, he referred to the neolithic german markers found by haak ( G2a and T1a ) did not come from Anatolia...................
there would definitely be farmers from anatolia who came from there later

 

[Pax Augusta]

Sardinians:

1st row:Sergio Atzeni – Caterina Murino – Pasquale Tola – Ampsicora – Comita I de Lacon-Zori 2nd row: Eleonor of Arborea – Joseph Toronto – Paola Antonelli – Enrico Berlinguer – Pinuccio Sciola
3rd row: Giovanni Antonio Sanna – Francesco Cossiga – Antonio Gramsci – Giovanni Matteo Mario – Anna Maria Pierangeli
4th row: Gian Luigi Gessa – Costantino Nivola – Marisa Sannia – Giovanni Maria Angioy – Francesco Cocco-Ortu
5th row: Giuseppe Manno – Goffredo Mameli (Genoese of Sardinian descent) – Salvatore Satta – Grazia Deledda – Andrea Parodi
6th row:Pope Hilarius – Amedeo Nazzari – Antonio Segni – Antonio Marras – Leonardo Alagon
7th row: Maria Lai – Emilio Lussu – Paolo Fresu – Domenico Alberto Azuni – Pope Symmachus
8th row: Domenico Ruiu – Marianus IV of Arborea – Maria Carta – Franco Columbu – Giovanni Spano – Giovanni Soro

Angela, thanks for sharing this. It's true that some of the Sardinians don't look any different than mainland Italians, but it's true that some people in these pics aren't ethnic Sardinian. Paola Antonelli, the woman in the middle in the second row, was born in Sardinia to Lombard parents. Antonio Gramsci was only half Sardinian. Anna Pierangeli was born in Sardinia to Central Italian parents (Pesaro, Marche). Others could have ancestry from mainland Italy. The isolation of Sardinia is true but sometimes is overestimated.

 

[Angela]

Angela, thanks for sharing this. It's true that some of the Sardinians don't look any different than mainland Italians, but it's true that some people in these pics aren't ethnic Sardinian. Paola Antonelli, the woman in the middle in the second row, was born in Sardinia to Lombard parents. Antonio Gramsci was only half Sardinian. Anna Pierangeli was born in Sardinia to Central Italian parents (Pesaro, Marche). Others could have ancestry from mainland Italy. The isolation of Sardinia is true but sometimes is overestimated.

Yes, I knew about Gramsci. I also knew that Pierangeli was not a Sardinian surname, but I'd never seen anything to the effect that the parents were newly arrived to the island. It certainly explains the looks of both sisters. I've always thought my mother looked a lot like them, especially Marisa Pavan, but even more beautiful, of course.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-h3W-_HaKP...ipA/s1600/1971_deaths_pier_angeli_18_1951.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/fe/ca/fd/fecafd9ba562d6ca6082883e04891ae0.jpg

This is Pavan as she got older. She looks a bit like Jackie Kennedy there.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/LhIDRlfhFEc/hqdefault.jpg

People should know that there was some admixture over the years from the mainland, if only from the amount of U=152 there. That's why I tried to stress that you can't just pick any Sardinian and say, there, that's what the unmixed EEF looked like...

 

[Pax Augusta]

Yes, I knew about Gramsci. I also knew that Pierangeli was not a Sardinian surname, but I'd never seen anything to the effect that the parents were newly arrived to the island. It certainly explains the looks of both sisters. I've always thought my mother looked a lot like them, especially Marisa Pavan, but even more beautiful, of course.

They were very beautiful indeed. Pierangeli family (Luigi and his wife Enrichetta Romiti) moved to Sardinia in 1931 or 1932 (some months before the birth of the twins) due to the work of the father who was an architect. But in 1935 they returned to mainland Italy and settled in Rome where they lived 15 years and the twins were pushed into show business careers by their mother. I doubt that the twins (known in show business as Pier Angeli and Marisa Pavan) ever identified themselves as Sardinian. Pier Angeli died 10 September 1971 in Beverly Hills, while Marisa still lives in Paris, France.

People should know that there was some admixture over the years from the mainland, if only from the amount of U=152 there. That's why I tried to stress that you can't just pick any Sardinian and say, there, that's what the unmixed EEF looked like...

I do agree with you. But you know anthrophorums love the extreme simplifications.

 

[MOESAN]

A lot of contradictions, even in the scientists world - by the way the EEF %s changes in Central Europe according to surveys; auDNA is (today) not an exact science in its whole typlogy even if some segments can accurately be studied -as a whole it works only when comparing populations through the same lents! and initial EEF were already a kind of mix, even if this mix was based upon close enough populations.

 

[MOESAN]

My method to "pinpoint" the EEF look is to find phenotypes of Sardinians which I find show some cranial and other resemblences to other "isolated farming groups". Or groups with also high EEF ancestry. As example if I see a German, Scandinavian, British or Iberian person who I think could pass as an individual from another group with very high farmer ancestry and his cranial is rather associated with farming cultures. I expect this to be some sort of farmer look.


As example

When I saw this image of Raul in Qatar with an Qatari I instantly thought both look like at least 80% of their ancestry is the same.

http://www.sportsfeatures.com/PressPoint/images/49501-olympic-image1.jpg


This Sardinian boy, Iraqi guy who looks and is probably a mix of Eastern and Southern farmers, and Benzema look quite similar in cranial and many other features.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4085/4981704205_86f2bb643f.jpg
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/8e/fe/e8/8efee82d680677cc9a8370c852cb6466.jpg
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B-e6eYoCcAAU3PK.jpg:small
http://golazogoal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/benzema.jpg

Xabi Alonso, reconstruction of neolithic farmer from britain and random Lebanese Guy.
http://www.tz.de/bilder/2014/06/21/3645424/1961692379-xabi-alonso-1yKvvLuvh1ef.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/17/article-2525035-1A2418AB00000578-695_634x467.jpg
http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p400897/6a01156f68db9c970c0120a5a48c5a970b_800wilebanesemen.jpg


The same game with females. This Sardinian girl reminds me allot of some Circassian girls I have seen.

https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/a-giorgia-palmas-0.jpg

This Sardinian and Circassian females look also quite similar. Circassians have around 10% EHG therefore unlikely that the similarty is based on the WHG ancestry. And Sardinians have close to non Teal.
http://www.spettegola.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Elisabetta-Canalis.jpg
http://s15.postimg.org/piwmcj5tn/Circassiangirl4.jpg

Thats how I spot these things, I take a European person (since they have most of the EEF ancestry in them) and look if I find a Near Easten/North African equivalent in cranial and some othe physical features. If yes than I account this to EEF ancestry.

thanks for the posts; some of them don't have the very same type - the red bearded man - it recalls me a Basque footballer - is rather closer to ancestral forms; that said yes some ''mediterranean' types remained closer to the archaic types when other, even more gracilized, lost jaw and took forehead bulb, what could have occurred rather in the easstern part of Mediterranea - Benzema is far from the typical 'mediterraneans' of any kind but the young Sardinian is close enough to him at first sight.
your 9° picture man is in between archaic (capelloid side) and "evolved", shows still archaic features, but with darker pigmentation could very well illustrate some kind of western 'mediterranean' of today; but the first EEF were rather on the Coon's 'danubian' type, which apparently, was very far from any archaic type concerning crania ,

Angela is right when she says the most of the time regional types are variated; types have a value when we study statistical presence of absence of certain features and measures in a population and the eventual variation of distribution over time, brutal or smooth - that said, 2 well determined types are sufficient to create a lot of diverse new apparent "types" by crossings and their results in the subsequent populations, crossing-over coming in play to complicate things; we speak as we were thinking a set of cranial features is passed and determined by a pair of alleles; in fact I suppose there are several pairs of alleles implied in this determination of cranial features, acting upon diverse parts of it. It's seems proved for the forehead, by instance. Here I don"t speak about some diseases, some accidental events between fecondation and birth (congenital), and way of life. The hard work is t try to discriminate all these influences, and some chosen pictures cannot help too much

 

[MOESAN]

'danubian', concerning face, was a bit far from today Eastern 'mediterraneans' too, concerning nose particuiarly. the difference could be explained by more introgression of North-Near-Eastern people or 'cappadocian' (western 'west-asian'?) among today Semitic Near-Easterners; but the difference could be for the most due to hazard selection among farmers of Catal Höyük having headed towards Southern Europe. it's the opinion of some scientists - so the auDNA, before more recent mixings, could have been close enough within first farmers even the ones stayed in Fertile Crescent, knowing our analysis of auDNA is not guaranteed by God.

 

[LeBrok]

Traits of EEF:
So called Greek nose with full root
Tip of nose pointing rather down than up
Full vertical forehead
Dark hair, brown eyes, with little wave.
Oval head/face
Rounded chin
Slimmer and shorter posture

Similar to women on first picture in post 1.

 

[Angela]

'danubian', concerning face, was a bit far from today Eastern 'mediterraneans' too, concerning nose particuiarly. the difference could be explained by more introgression of North-Near-Eastern people or 'cappadocian' (western 'west-asian'?) among today Semitic Near-Easterners; but the difference could be for the most due to hazard selection among farmers of Catal Höyük having headed towards Southern Europe. it's the opinion of some scientists - so the auDNA, before more recent mixings, could have been close enough within first farmers even the ones stayed in Fertile Crescent, knowing our analysis of auDNA is not guaranteed by God.

As you know, I get lost with some of this, so bear with me.

I found this in my files labeled as the anthropological types of the Neolithic Anatolians by Angel. Is that true to your knowledge, and whether it is or it isn't could these samples be described this way.

I ask, because I can see the first three in European faces, but much less so in the modern Near East. Even in Europe, however, modern "Mediterranean" phenotypes area a lot more varied than that.

Also, to which picture are you referring here, and which ancestral type?
"thanks for the posts; some of them don't have the very same type - the red bearded man - it recalls me a Basque footballer - is rather closer to ancestral forms"

If, " Benzema is far from the typical 'mediterraneans' of any kind but the young Sardinian is close enough to him at first sight", then to what type do Benzema and the young Sardinian belong, because they look similar to me as well. Do you mean that Benzema is not "Mediterranean" looking but the Sardinian is?

Also, as to your comment that, "your 9° picture man is in between archaic (capelloid side) and "evolved", shows still archaic features, but with darker pigmentation could very well illustrate some kind of western 'mediterranean' of today; but the first EEF were rather on the Coon's 'danubian' type, which apparently, was very far from any archaic type concerning crania", do you mean the atypical Lebanese man below?
"http://z3.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p400897/6a01156f68db9c970c0120a5a48c5a970b_800wilebanesemen.jpg

If that's the case do you mean that he shows a blend of Mesolithic European and Anatolian?

Finally, what do you think of LeBroc's collection of traits and his example? As to one particular, most of the plates of Mediterraneans I've seen actually don't have a vertical forehead. Also, nose morphology has always been problematic for me. How can we tell about soft tissue?

Fwiw, whatever the physical anthropologists may say, when I think Mediterranean this is the face I see...Anna Maria Pierangeli...