Scottish R1b-U152, Danelaw vs. Channel crossing

[Taranis]

It appears sensible and stands up well against the Cimbri hypothesis for U152 in Scotland. I think Dr. David Faux related the introduction of iron-working to the regions settled by the Cimbri, positing an archaeological argument with iron-work introduction into the East Jutland from the U152 homelands in Central Europe.

Honestly, I just don't see how Faux's scenario would work out. The concentrations in Jutland, even East Jutland, are way lower than in large swathes of the British Isles. You would require a massive founder effect for this to work out, and the archaeology doesn't back that up (there may have been some immigration / invasion of some kind with the start of the iron age in Britain, but nothing on the scale to support this, in my opinion).

Regarding the Celtic/Germanic question of the Cimbri, this is mainly based on the question when the First Germanic Sound Shift occured. Given the numerous Celtic loanwords in Proto-Germanic (which all occured before the first sound shift), it was generally agreed on that the sound shift must have been after circa 500 BC (the time when the proto-Germanic peoples of the Jastorf culture would have adopted iron-working from the Hallstatt Celts). Hence, the name "Cimbri" could be Celtic (if Germanic already shifted at that point) or Germanic (if the shift occured later). The Cimbrian Wars were in the 2nd century BC, and a strong argument can be made that the sound shift occured even later, namely in the 1st century BC to 1st century AD. If you look at the treatment of Germanic tribal and place names in Caesar compared against Tacitus or later sources, a strong case can be made that this was the case.

Another issue, of course, is the location on the Jutland penninsula, and area in which you - at later times, of course, find zero evidence for Celtic typonomy. And conversely, there is no evidence for Germanic tribes in Britain before the Roman Period (I would have said "before the Anglo-Saxon invasion", but this is not quite accurate because there probably were already Germanic mercenaries in Britain under the Romans).

 

[Dorianfinder]

Honestly, I just don't see how Faux's scenario would work out. The concentrations in Jutland, even East Jutland, are way lower than in large swathes of the British Isles. You would require a massive founder effect for this to work out, and the archaeology doesn't back that up (there may have been some immigration / invasion of some kind with the start of the iron age in Britain, but nothing on the scale to support this, in my opinion).

Regarding the Celtic/Germanic question of the Cimbri, this is mainly based on the question when the First Germanic Sound Shift occured. Given the numerous Celtic loanwords in Proto-Germanic (which all occured before the first sound shift), it was generally agreed on that the sound shift must have been after circa 500 BC (the time when the proto-Germanic peoples of the Jastorf culture would have adopted iron-working from the Hallstatt Celts). Hence, the name "Cimbri" could be Celtic (if Germanic already shifted at that point) or Germanic (if the shift occured later). The Cimbrian Wars were in the 2nd century BC, and a strong argument can be made that the sound shift occured even later, namely in the 1st century BC to 1st century AD. If you look at the treatment of Germanic tribal and place names in Caesar compared against Tacitus or later sources, a strong case can be made that this was the case.

Another issue, of course, is the location on the Jutland penninsula, and area in which you - at later times, of course, find zero evidence for Celtic typonomy. And conversely, there is no evidence for Germanic tribes in Britain before the Roman Period (I would have said "before the Anglo-Saxon invasion", but this is not quite accurate because there probably were already Germanic mercenaries in Britain under the Romans).

The question for me is one of R1b-U152 penetration and the erratic distribution along the East coast. We find trace amounts of U152 in Scandinavia, just enough to keep us guessing.

Scottish R1b-U152 is of particular interest to my Greek R1b-U152 database. I have 3 Greek families with L2* who match/overlap Scottish L2* from the county of Roxburgh.

Not sure what the connection is except that they are obviously related and live on the coast.

 

[Dorianfinder]

we are more likely to have had a population of U152 that is closer to the North Sea with higher L2 levels and a population that is farther from the North Sea with lower L2 level, which then got amplified as expansion occurred.

Do you leave any possibility that L2 may have traveled in an easterly direction or were the Eastern Celts and Greek 'proto-Celtic' peoples of a different admixture? I'm thinking about the L2* that flooded North Italy c.1200BC. Could there have been a similar migration into the South Balkans of L2* or is this unvalidated in your opinion?

What would differentiate Roman and Venetian R1b-U152 from a possible prehistoric migration from the Hallstatt area in upper Austria?

This relates to the Scottish lowland population as they too have to contend with the possible diffusion of Gallic, Belgic and Roman R1b-U152 into the Scottish lowlands (possibly via sea travel).

 

[sparkey]

Do you leave any possibility that L2 may have traveled in an easterly direction or were the Eastern Celts and Greek 'proto-Celtic' peoples of a different admixture? I'm thinking about the L2* that flooded North Italy c.1200BC. Could there have been a similar migration into the South Balkans of L2* or is this unvalidated in your opinion?

The fact that some L2 is present in Eastern Europe indicates to me that it did indeed move eastward. I doubt that L2 originated very far East, probably not much farther than its points of highest frequency (although I'd be interested in seeing a diversity analysis to confirm or reject this). So the question is what time. I'll leave the possibilities open because I'm not sure I have enough data in front of me.

What would differentiate Roman and Venetian R1b-U152 from a possible prehistoric migration from the Hallstatt area in upper Austria?

Probably very little other than making a giant tree from ultra-high-definition STR testing with a huge sample size. I think in the case of Britain, it's generally best to assume a Halstatt/La Tene origin unless proven otherwise. I'm a lot less familiar with the dynamics of Eastern Europe, though.

This relates to the Scottish lowland population as they too have to contend with the possible diffusion of Gallic, Belgic and Roman R1b-U152 into the Scottish lowlands (possibly via sea travel).

I agree that the Scottish Lowlands are tricky to figure out.

 

[Taranis]

The question for me is one of R1b-U152 penetration and the erratic distribution along the East coast. We find trace amounts of U152 in Scandinavia, just enough to keep us guessing.

Scottish R1b-U152 is of particular interest to my Greek R1b-U152 database. I have 3 Greek families with L2* who match/overlap Scottish L2* from the county of Roxburgh.

Not sure what the connection is except that they are obviously related and live on the coast.

Actually, I have a far simpler explanation for the "erratic" distribution: later history, in particular the Viking influence. As for trace amounts of U152 in Scandinavia, one possibility is slaves. The Vikings were known to have practiced an extenive slave trade.

I actually have seen no satisfying numbers yet about the percentage by which the modern-day population of Scandinavia is descended from Viking slaves, but I suspect it must be a fair percentage. I hope Maciamo posts a map of R1b-L21 soon.

One issue we should always consider with any Haplogroup distribution: we always see the sum of things, the current state and we have to consider what influences came through there across time.

 

[spongetaro]

. I hope Maciamo posts a map of R1b-L21 soon.

Here you can find new maps of R1b l21, U152 and U106

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full.pdf

 

[Twilight]

Actually, I have a far simpler explanation for the "erratic" distribution: later history, in particular the Viking influence. As for trace amounts of U152 in Scandinavia, one possibility is slaves. The Vikings were known to have practiced an extenive slave trade.

I actually have seen no satisfying numbers yet about the percentage by which the modern-day population of Scandinavia is descended from Viking slaves, but I suspect it must be a fair percentage. I hope Maciamo posts a map of R1b-L21 soon.

One issue we should always consider with any Haplogroup distribution: we always see the sum of things, the current state and we have to consider what influences came through there across time.

True, although I honestly don't see any North Sea Viking settlement in Scotland. :/