Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Cobol19]

Cobol19, saying that the frequency of I2a-Din in the Balkans is evidence that it originated there is poor reasoning. The center of diversity of I2a-Din is apparently not in the Balkans, and the clade TMCRA is very young to begin with, indicating that it expanded on the Balkans rapidly and recently (relatively speaking, the Classical and Medieval periods are very much in play). As I've mentioned, Nordtvedt places the center of diversity of I2a-Din north of the Balkans, as diversity of it appears to increase as we go north. However, it's less clear where the center of diversity is on an east/west scale, mainly because we don't have enough data on I2a-Din in the East.

That isn't to say that I agree with Bodin, especially on his dismissal of the Slavs as being the source of I2a-Din in the Balkans. His main objection to that theory seems to be that the Slavs carried primarily R1a, which is now more rare than I2a-Din in the Balkans. But I think this frequency-based argument runs into similar issues. It's entirely possible that the expanding population had genetic drift toward a minority haplogroup, or that they were such a small segment of the original population that their haplogroup frequencies weren't representative of the whole. Besides, there is significant North Slavic I2a-Din, which we are fairly sure is older than Balkan I2a-Din, so why not assume them as the source, given that our knowledge of Eastern I2a-Din is lacking?

To rephrase what I said, when I think of the Balkans I tend to mix it up with Southeast Europe, the latter is where I think the diversity is highest, I never said frequency is more relevant than diversity, nor do I have to say that since it was not what I was arguing with Bodin, the initial claim he made was that I2a2 existed among the Medes, I have no idea where he came up with this, but when I mentioned the Balkans, my main arguments were:

a) I2a2 in West Asia is mostly a gene wave from the Balkans to Anatolia (This point did not mean it originated in the Balkans).

b) It's highly unlikely that it existed among the Medes since the Iranic people came to West Asia from South-Central Asia where haplogroup I* and its subclades are seriously lacking, and if it did exist among the Medes in West Asia, it surely did not exist among their Iranic ancestors in their ancestral lands.

c) We don't have enough evidence that most I* in West Asia are I2a2 nor do we have enough evidence of the percentages (The argument was about the Kurds), I say this because other subclades actually exist in the region (Like I2c for example), so for all we know, it may be a mixture of I's (I2a, I2b, I2c, along with a few I1's), until further studies are done on these subclades, there's no need to rename the I* to I2a2 just because someone feels it, after all this is not about feelings, it's about evidence, and Bodin was not providing that evidence.

 

[Cobol19]

yes I know that I1b = I2a2 = I2a1b , it is my haplogroup , what I tried to corect in your previous post is that I2a1b is not I M26 but I P37 .
So now you acepting possibility that I* in West Asia is I2a1b , why do you argued at all ?
How did I2a1b get from Balkans to Kurdistan without leaving almoust any traill in Anatolia - do you believe they had aeroplains ?

No I don't agree with you, we only agree on the haplogroup designations, you still have not provided evidence on the numbers of I2a2 among the Kurds (Because you don't have any), the studies mention I*, of course some of them or maybe even all of them will carry I2a2, but other subclades of I* should not be ruled out since they also exist in the region, my question to you is how can you say a certain people carry a certain lineage when you don't have evidence?

Listen, if you tell me this is your opinion, I would understand, but if you claim something (Not an opinion), you need evidence, and frankly, you don't have any evidence, therefore you have no argument.

 

[Goga]

if I2a1b is Slavic why dont Slavs have more of it than R1a ?
Ukrainians have 12% of I2a1b ( amongs strongest percents in Slavs , except " South Slavs")and 11,8% of J2 , why dont you claim J2 is also Slavic

there is 10.5% of I2a in Russian. How many Russians are in Russia? Maybe 115 million, so that makes 12 million Russians of I2a origin.

According to many people ancient Iranic people were J2 (+G2a) and R1a (+R2a) folks. They came from West Asia and mixed with R1a folks. Some recent studies hinted that:

Where in India did the Aryans arrive? Three answers to one question:

http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-a...gc.r_pw.&fp=14f6892a5a332bf1&biw=1298&bih=595


Y-haplogroups of carriers of the Aryan language:

http://www.google.nl/#sclient=psy-a...gc.r_pw.&fp=14f6892a5a332bf1&biw=1298&bih=595

 

[Goga]

Also, Kurdish and Georgian mtDNA is very close to each other!

From: American Journal of Physical Anthropology, Volume 112, Issue 1, May 2000.
Written: David Comas, Francesc Calafell, Nina Bendukidze, Lourdes Fañanás, Jaume Bertranpetit.

Abstract

Mitochondrial DNA sequences from Georgians and Kurds were analyzed in order to test the possible correlation between female lineages and languages in these two neighboring West Eurasian groups. Mitochondrial sequence pools in both populations are very similar despite their different linguistic and prehistoric backgrounds. Both populations present mtDNA lineages that clearly belong to the European gene pool, as shown by 1) similar nucleotide and sequence diversities; 2) a large number of sequences shared with the rest of European samples; 3) nonsignificant genetic distances; and 4) classification of the present lineages into the major European mtDNA haplogroups already described. The outlier position of the populations from the Caucasus according to classical genetic markers is not recognized in the present Georgian mtDNA sequence pool. This result suggests that the differentiation of mtDNA sequences in West Eurasia and the outlier features of Caucasian populations should be attributed to different processes. Moreover, the putative linguistic relationship between Caucasian groups and the Basques, another outlier population within Europe for classical genetic markers, is not detected by the analysis of mtDNA sequences.

Am J Phys Anthropol 112:5–16, 2000. © 2000 Wiley-Liss, Inc

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/(SICI)1096-8644(200005)112:1%3C5::AID-AJPA2%3E3.0.CO;2-Z/abstract

 

[rms2]

But wait a moment , Scythians ruled over proto Slavs so they would mixed with them , also it is real posibility that Slavs are descendants of Scyth ploughers and older population of descendants from Yamna culture - Cymmerians and they were both R1a - and R1a is prevalent Slavic haplogroup - if I2a1b is Slavic why dont Slavs have more of it than R1a ?
Ukrainians have 12% of I2a1b ( amongs strongest percents in Slavs , except " South Slavs")and 11,8% of J2 , why dont you claim J2 is also Slavic

"Slavic" is a linguistic category, so where J2 occurs among Slavic-speaking people, it is Slavic.

 

[Bodin]

No I don't agree with you, we only agree on the haplogroup designations, you still have not provided evidence on the numbers of I2a2 among the Kurds (Because you don't have any), the studies mention I*, of course some of them or maybe even all of them will carry I2a2, but other subclades of I* should not be ruled out since they also exist in the region, my question to you is how can you say a certain people carry a certain lineage when you don't have evidence?

Listen, if you tell me this is your opinion, I would understand, but if you claim something (Not an opinion), you need evidence, and frankly, you don't have any evidence, therefore you have no argument.

Whait a moment do you say no of Kurdic I* is I2a1b ? You way of reasoning is realy simmilar to Turkic diplomats - Ishalah - It could be but not necesarly. There is certainly some I2c but no more than 1-2% ( it is not shown greather % anywhere else ) which else I* could it be except I2a1b Din , I didnt claim anything I was just presenting my theory that Medes are ancestors of Sarmathian and Kurds and Sarmathians are ancestors of Serbs and Croats , and I trying to deffend it with evidences , toward now I encountered just pro evidence and none contra it. And no we havent agree about designations neither because you didnt admited that I M26 is not equal to I2a1b

 

[Bodin]

there is 10.5% of I2a in Russian. How many Russians are in Russia? Maybe 115 million, so that makes 12 million Russians of I2a origin.

According to many people ancient Iranic people were J2 (+G2a) and R1a (+R2a) folks. They came from West Asia and mixed with R1a folks. Some recent studies hinted that:

Why would you count numbers ? I dont understand a point .
Yes J2 mixed realy early with R1a , thats reason I asked him way dont he call it Slavic

 

[Bodin]

"Slavic" is a linguistic category, so where J2 occurs among Slavic-speaking people, it is Slavic.

Finaly , yes Slavic is just linguistic category . But up to V century AD Slavic languague was confined in small , clossed group around Pripyat river . And that group was probably R1a genetically.
Do haplogroups speack languague ? How could J2 be Slavic ,we could assign haplogroup to group of peoples no to they languague

 

[Cobol19]

Whait a moment do you say no of Kurdic I* is I2a1b ? You way of reasoning is realy simmilar to Turkic diplomats - Ishalah - It could be but not necesarly.

There's no diplomacy in this, it's all about evidence, and while I do believe that I2a2 does indeed exist in West Asia (Never denied that), I think it's a waste of time to assume that all the I* found in Kurds in previous studies is I2a2, unless you have evidence that it's all I2a2, stop claiming that.

There is certainly some I2c but no more than 1-2% ( it is not shown greather % anywhere else ) which else I* could it be except I2a1b Din ,

The major subclade of I among the Armenians is I2c, not I2a2:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

If such cases exist in the region, you cannot rule out other cases unless you present proper evidence.

I didnt claim anything I was just presenting my theory that Medes are ancestors of Sarmathian and Kurds and Sarmathians are ancestors of Serbs and Croats , and I trying to deffend it with evidences , toward now I encountered just pro evidence and none contra it.

So it's an opinion, not evidence, I disagree with it but it's your opinion.

And no we havent agree about designations neither because you didnt admited that I M26 is not equal to I2a1b

I got mixed up and made an error with the marker name (M26), which is due to the recent changes and the paper using the older designations, but to make it clear, I believe the recent I2a1b (Previous I2a2) came to West Asia from the Southeast Europe via the Balkans, and it had nothing to do with the original Iranian populations that migrated from South-Central Asia to West Asia (Early Medes/Persians).

 

[Bodin]

To rephrase what I said, when I think of the Balkans I tend to mix it up with Southeast Europe, the latter is where I think the diversity is highest, I never said frequency is more relevant than diversity, nor do I have to say that since it was not what I was arguing with Bodin, the initial claim he made was that I2a2 existed among the Medes, I have no idea where he came up with this, but when I mentioned the Balkans, my main arguments were:

a) I2a2 in West Asia is mostly a gene wave from the Balkans to Anatolia (This point did not mean it originated in the Balkans).

b) It's highly unlikely that it existed among the Medes since the Iranic people came to West Asia from South-Central Asia where haplogroup I* and its subclades are seriously lacking, and if it did exist among the Medes in West Asia, it surely did not exist among their Iranic ancestors in their ancestral lands.

c) We don't have enough evidence that most I* in West Asia are I2a2 nor do we have enough evidence of the percentages (The argument was about the Kurds), I say this because other subclades actually exist in the region (Like I2c for example), so for all we know, it may be a mixture of I's (I2a, I2b, I2c, along with a few I1's), until further studies are done on these subclades, there's no need to rename the I* to I2a2 just because someone feels it, after all this is not about feelings, it's about evidence, and Bodin was not providing that evidence.

You claim that I2a1b camed from Balkans in Anatolia makes no sence - there is almoust no I2a1b in Anatolia , and small amounts that are found in nortwest Anatolia could be explained by Byzantine and Turkic settling of Balkans populations there . I already asked you how did they get to Kurdistan living no trace in Anatolia - you dont have PROVE they came from Balkans and it is also NOT LOGICAL
And also there is some I* in southwest Asia , hotspot in Pashtuni tribe Sarbani ( see similarity of name to Serbs )

 

[Bodin]

There's no diplomacy in this, it's all about evidence, and while I do believe that I2a2 does indeed exist in West Asia (Never denied that), I think it's a waste of time to assume that all the I* found in Kurds in previous studies is I2a2, unless you have evidence that it's all I2a2, stop claiming that.

The major subclade of I among the Armenians is I2c, not I2a2:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=yresults

If such cases exist in the region, you cannot rule out other cases unless you present proper evidence.

So it's an opinion, not evidence, I disagree with it but it's your opinion.

I got mixed up and made an error with the marker name (M26), which is due to the recent changes and the paper using the older designations, but to make it clear, I believe the recent I2a1b (Previous I2a2) came to West Asia from the Southeast Europe via the Balkans, and it had nothing to do with the original Iranian populations that migrated from South-Central Asia to West Asia (Early Medes/Persians).

I never said all I* in Kurdistan is I2a1b
Yes but Armenians had only few percents of I*
It is oppinion backed up with reports of Diodorus and Pliny , what back up your oppinion?
How would they get from Balkans to Kurdistan?

 

[Cobol19]

You claim that I2a1b camed from Balkans in Anatolia makes no sence - there is almoust no I2a1b in Anatolia , and small amounts that are found in nortwest Anatolia could be explained by Byzantine and Turkic settling of Balkans populations there .

"Almost none" does not mean "None", the point is as one keeps going east, this lineage fades, there's a hot spot among the Kurds but such phenomenon happens with other lineages too, it's called a genetic drift.

The other thing is, stop hanging on to I2a1b, you can't even prove if that's what the Kurds carried or not.

I already asked you how did they get to Kurdistan living no trace in Anatolia - you dont have PROVE they came from Balkans and it is also NOT LOGICAL

What's not logical is you're claiming that this so called lineage existed among the Medes, yet it's absent from their ancestral lands.

And also there is some I* in southwest Asia , hotspot in Pashtuni tribe Sarbani ( see similarity of name to Serbs )

a) Pashtuns don't live in Southwest Asia.
b) Once again, show me your proof of this I* existing among the Pasthuns.
c) If I* does exist, show me evidence that's it's I2a1b.

You see Bodin you have a problem with providing evidence, everything you say means absolutely nothing unless you show the evidence, you saying this stuff is like me saying there's I2a1b among Aboriginal Australians, will you believe it? No, so unless you have evidence, stop making up fairytales.

 

[Bodin]

"Almost none" does not mean "None", the point is as one keeps going east, this lineage fades, there's a hot spot among the Kurds but such phenomenon happens with other lineages too, it's called a genetic drift.

The other thing is, stop hanging on to I2a1b, you can't even prove if that's what the Kurds carried or not.

What's not logical is you're claiming that this so called lineage existed among the Medes, yet it's absent from their ancestral lands.

a) Pashtuns don't live in Southwest Asia.
b) Once again, show me your proof of this I* existing among the Pasthuns.
c) If I* does exist, show me evidence that's it's I2a1b.

You see Bodin you have a problem with providing evidence, everything you say means absolutely nothing unless you show the evidence, you saying this stuff is like me saying there's I2a1b among Aboriginal Australians, will you believe it? No, so unless you have evidence, stop making up fairytales.

No I dont making fairytailes , you are , I2a1b that is weak in Anatolia has to be from Balkanies settlers -Serbs there during Ottoman empire( ever heird of Yeni Cari , or Belgrade quarter in Istambul?) , if it was there before Turks settled Serbs , than Serbian I2a1b would increased it % and it would be more significant. So only fairytale is your claim I2a1b came from Balkans. Explain your claim - when do they come to Balkans , and when do they moved to Anatolia. My Fairytale atleast has timeline , your is soap buble

 

[Bodin]

I made lapsus taping not Southwest Asia but South east . You also not proiding any evidence , there is more posibility there is I2a1b in Aboriginal Australians then it crossed from Balkans to Anatolia

 

[Cobol19]

Yes but Armenians had only few percents of I*

There's no I* among Armenians in the project, all the subclades are detailed:

Total I2 in the project - 5% (19/316)
I2c-L596 - 4% (16/316)
I2a2a-M223 - 1.6% (5/316)
I2a1b-M423 - 0.3% (1/316)

The frequency is hardly very important unless it's very insignificant, and 5% while not major, still somewhat significant.

It is oppinion backed up with reports of Diodorus and Pliny , what back up your oppinion?

The diversity of Iranian languages peak in South Central Asia, and according to Herodotus, that's where the Scythian homeland was before they left it due to wars with other Iranian tribes.

How would they get from Balkans to Kurdistan?

The same way other haplogroups travel.

 

[Cobol19]

No I dont making fairytailes , you are , I2a1b that is weak in Anatolia has to be from Balkanies settlers -Serbs there during Ottoman empire( ever heird of Yeni Cari , or Belgrade quarter in Istambul?) , if it was there before Turks settled Serbs , than Serbian I2a1b would increased it % and it would be more significant. So only fairytale is your claim I2a1b came from Balkans. Explain your claim - when do they come to Balkans , and when do they moved to Anatolia. My Fairytale atleast has timeline , your is soap buble

Your timeline does not mean anything, as for the rest, I honestly don't understand you, the English is not very good.

 

[Bodin]

hier is evidence there is I in Pacistan :
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html#fig1
They conect it with Greeks , but I believe it is mistake , because it would be more evenly spreaded , and I already presented evidences why I believe I2a1b comed in Greece after VI century AD
And hier is map thet shows hotspot of I in Southeast Asia :

Its from Eupedia ( and yes they dont imagine maps , but work them according to data )
Now before you say Ishallah ( it could be but not necesarly ) , if you wont to realy chalenge my theories present some evidence for your own theory , or atleast some evidence that contradicts my theory . And no saying that there is more I2c than I2a in Armenia out of 4 % of total I* do not contradict my theory

 

[Bodin]

There's no I* among Armenians in the project, all the subclades are detailed:

Total I2 in the project - 5% (19/316)
I2c-L596 - 4% (16/316)
I2a2a-M223 - 1.6% (5/316)
I2a1b-M423 - 0.3% (1/316)

The frequency is hardly very important unless it's very insignificant, and 5% while not major, still somewhat significant.

The diversity of Iranian languages peak in South Central Asia, and according to Herodotus, that's where the Scythian homeland was before they left it due to wars with other Iranian tribes.

The same way other haplogroups travel.

When I said I* I was refering on total I , and it is insignificant in Armenia
Did you read Herodothus ? He say they comed from east pushed by Masagets - and Masagets lived on Arral sea - that is not southeast Asia but Central Asia
I didnt ask you how they traveled I ask way didnt they left mark in Anatolia

 

[rms2]

Finaly , yes Slavic is just linguistic category . But up to V century AD Slavic languague was confined in small , clossed group around Pripyat river . And that group was probably R1a genetically.
Do haplogroups speack languague ? How could J2 be Slavic ,we could assign haplogroup to group of peoples no to they languague

I agree with you . . . to a point. But R1a is older than the Slavic languages and more extensive than the Slavic languages. And there is plenty of I2a (I don't know much about the "1b" part - I don't keep up with y hap I that much) in Slavic-speaking Eastern Europe. My own stepson, born in Russia, with a very Slavic Russian surname, is I2a. His closest match in Ysearch is Polish.

No doubt the original I2a men spoke a number of languages now dead, as did the first R1a men. But if you are I2a with a Slavic surname and extensive ancestry in a Slavic country, you are a Slav (if you want to be).

But I am starting to get the picture that you are trying to sort out the ultimate origins of these haplogroups and connect them to ethnic groups. So, in that sense, you are saying that I2a1b is not truly Slavic in its origin. I think it has been a component in the Slavic profile for so long it's going to be hard to tease it apart from the "original Slavs", whoever and whatever they were.

I wish you luck!

 

[Bodin]

Your timeline does not mean anything, as for the rest, I honestly don't understand you, the English is not very good.

It is realy ignorant to say Diodorus and Pliny reports dont mean anything , and not providing any proves against it .
I say it simple :
1) when acording to you I2a1b reached Balkans?
2)when it moved from Balkans to Kurdistan?
Did you understod now?