Scythian/Sarmatian DNA, your thoughts.

[Goga]

And you don't think it's possible that the N drifted away? We see the pattern of N levels: Russia 23%, Belarus 5%, Ukraine 5%, Serbia 2%. If you consider the pattern of decreasing N from North Russia to South Russia it looks about as expected for the Slavic expansion theory.

Ok.

Croatia is almost a third R1a. And wouldn't the Sarmatians have a lot of R1a anyway?

I think something but not a lot. It's possible that Sarmatians were 'native' Europeans and not Slavic from northwest Russia or Iranic from the steppes.

 

[Benkimim]

What DNA can Scythians/Sarmatians can have ?

 

[sparkey]

What DNA can Scythians/Sarmatians can have ?

The debate has been about relative amounts of I2a-Din vs. R1a. I think that they were probably quite R1a dominant, others think that they were I2a-Din dominant or at least had it in high proportions. I'm not sure about other haplogroups. They could have had significant J2.

 

[Benkimim]

Thanks dude

 

[Goga]

The debate has been about relative amounts of I2a-Din vs. R1a. I think that they were probably quite R1a dominant, others think that they were I2a-Din dominant or at least had it in high proportions. I'm not sure about other haplogroups. They could have had significant J2.

Maybe also with some E1b1b?

What did you do to me. I'm confused again. Why...

 

[sparkey]

Maybe also with some E1b1b?

Yes, and probably also some T and some others. Q is a question mark to me, when did it get to Ukraine, I wonder?

What did you do to me. I'm confused again. Why...

Next we'll both be proven wrong and a dozen new theories will arise.

 

[Cobol19]

The debate has been about relative amounts of I2a-Din vs. R1a. I think that they were probably quite R1a dominant, others think that they were I2a-Din dominant or at least had it in high proportions. I'm not sure about other haplogroups. They could have had significant J2.

I don't even know why haplogroup I2a is in discussion, ancient Scythian DNA show R1a1a for most part along with some C*, that's it, if people are basing this on the modern Serbs/Croats just because there's some sort of historical story connecting them to some of these ancient Iranian groups, I would think I2a already existed among these native Southeast Europeans before the merging of these Scythian/Sarmatian groups, and surely, if we check this for example:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg

We see that R1a does have significant presence in some of these Southeast European populations (Slavic speaking ones for most part), in other words haplogroup I2a does not seem like an important lineage among the ancient Iranian populations in general, nor has it been a factor, to me this is a Southeast European lineage that was probably found in ancient Illyrian and Thracian tribes.

Then again we're not even sure if even the R1a among them was brought by the Scythians or not, I actually believe that most of this R1a is the European kind that was brought by the Slavs, if you notice the latest SNP studies on R1a1a:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...h0VmNvbGh6d1E&hl=en_US&authkey=CMjR3ssG#gid=0

The European kind of R1a1a is different from the non-European ones, Z93+ seems to be the common R1a1a lineage found among the non-European populations such as Turks, Indians, Iranians, Arabs, Jews etc, while those who are Z93- are Europeans, the bigger question is whether the Scythians carried Z93+ or not, if so, then there's hardly any Scythian DNA in Europe, and if not, then the European Scythians were either a bunch of Iranianized Scythians (Not the real ones), or we assume that the Indo-Iranians were indeed of European origin while the ones in Asia are only Indo-Iranian by language.

My opinion on the matter is the Indo-Iranian lineage was likely Z93+, but this lineage exists among other non-Indo-Iranian folks too so the split between the European and non-European R1a1a must have happened a long time ago, that the association between the Indo-Europeans in Europe and those in Asia is mainly a language one rather than a genetic one.

 

[razor]

I don't even know why haplogroup I2a is in discussion, ancient Scythian DNA show R1a1a for most part along with some C*,

That's interesting. I didn't know there had been studies of ancient Scythian DNA. Would you have a reference?

 

[Goga]

My opinion on the matter is the Indo-Iranian lineage was likely Z93+, but this lineage exists among other non-Indo-Iranian folks too so the split between the European and non-European R1a1a must have happened a long time ago, that the association between the Indo-Europeans in Europe and those in Asia is mainly a language one rather than a genetic one.

Well, you're not the only one who thinks that only the archaic Indo-European language connect all Indo-European speakers. Many western scholars suggest that too. And I do agree with you.

I think that the Iranic (Aryan) folks spread R1a Z93+ among the other non-IE folks in Asia, like Semites in the Mesopotamia (Syrians, Iraqis, Assyrians etc.) in West Asia.

But there're still big genetic differences between the Semites and Iranic folks in West Asia.

 

[Cobol19]

That's interesting. I didn't know there had been studies of ancient Scythian DNA. Would you have a reference?

I don't have access to the paper, but here's the following study:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/4462755368m322k8/

The study was based on Kurgan skeletons from the second millennium BC all the way to the fourth century AD (Which the Scythians fall between the time-line and very well roaming the steppes).

 

[Cobol19]

Well, you're not the only one who thinks that only the archaic Indo-European language connect all Indo-European speakers. Many western scholars suggest that too. And I do agree with you.

I think that the Iranic (Aryan) folks spread R1a Z93+ among the other non-IE folks in Asia, like Semites in the Mesopotamia (Syrians, Iraqis, Assyrians etc.) in West Asia.

But there're still big genetic differences between the Semites and Iranic folks in West Asia.

Iranians are not the only folks that carry Z93+, many other groups too, the age is likely much older than civilizations (Older than Indo-Iranian languages), so chances are it probably existed among other non-Iranian groups way before the arrival of Iranian languages, why do I say this? Because it exists among people in Arabia (As in Gulf Arabs), Jews, South Indians, etc, in other words the lineage exists in areas where the Iranians have not touched significantly, the more logical explanation is that this lineage predates the Indo-Iranian languages and it was in existence in other areas before the Indo-Iranians started migrating, but the main point is those folks who speak Indo-European languages and carry R1a1a in Asia are closer to other non-Indo-European folks under this lineage than to the Indo-Europeans in Europe, remember, we're talking genetics here, not languages.

Note, the Assyrians hardly have any R1a1a (Like 2% or 3%), so they're insignificant to the Z93 story.

 

[Goga]

Iranians are not the only folks that carry Z93+, many other groups too, the age is likely much older than civilizations (Older than Indo-Iranian languages), so chances are it probably existed among other non-Iranian groups way before the arrival of Iranian languages, why do I say this? Because it exists among people in Arabia (As in Gulf Arabs), Jews, South Indians, etc, in other words the lineage exists in areas where the Iranians have not touched significantly, the more logical explanation is that this lineage predates the Indo-Iranian languages and it was in existence in other areas before the Indo-Iranians started migrating, but the main point is those folks who speak Indo-European languages and carry R1a1a in Asia are closer to other non-Indo-European folks under this lineage than to the Indo-Europeans in Europe, remember, we're talking genetics here, not languages.

Ok. I'm not sure about R1a in Arabs. Maybe they got it before the Aryans and maybe from the Aryans. I don't know that yet.

But I still believe that R1a in Iranic people is Iranic. All west Iranic people is West Asia are very close to each other. I mean even if the Ossetians don't have much R1a genetically they're still very close to Kurds and West Persians. Somehow there's a correlation between all West Iranic peoples, Iranic folks in the Caucasus and native Caucasians.

So Kurdish R1a is still very close to Ossetian G2a for example. Even closer than to other non-Iranic R1a.

 

[sparkey]

I don't even know why haplogroup I2a is in discussion, ancient Scythian DNA show R1a1a for most part along with some C*, that's it, if people are basing this on the modern Serbs/Croats just because there's some sort of historical story connecting them to some of these ancient Iranian groups, I would think I2a already existed among these native Southeast Europeans before the merging of these Scythian/Sarmatian groups, and surely, if we check this for example:

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg

We see that R1a does have significant presence in some of these Southeast European populations (Slavic speaking ones for most part), in other words haplogroup I2a does not seem like an important lineage among the ancient Iranian populations in general, nor has it been a factor, to me this is a Southeast European lineage that was probably found in ancient Illyrian and Thracian tribes.

Then again we're not even sure if even the R1a among them was brought by the Scythians or not, I actually believe that most of this R1a is the European kind that was brought by the Slavs, if you notice the latest SNP studies on R1a1a:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...h0VmNvbGh6d1E&hl=en_US&authkey=CMjR3ssG#gid=0

The European kind of R1a1a is different from the non-European ones, Z93+ seems to be the common R1a1a lineage found among the non-European populations such as Turks, Indians, Iranians, Arabs, Jews etc, while those who are Z93- are Europeans, the bigger question is whether the Scythians carried Z93+ or not, if so, then there's hardly any Scythian DNA in Europe, and if not, then the European Scythians were either a bunch of Iranianized Scythians (Not the real ones), or we assume that the Indo-Iranians were indeed of European origin while the ones in Asia are only Indo-Iranian by language.

My opinion on the matter is the Indo-Iranian lineage was likely Z93+, but this lineage exists among other non-Indo-Iranian folks too so the split between the European and non-European R1a1a must have happened a long time ago, that the association between the Indo-Europeans in Europe and those in Asia is mainly a language one rather than a genetic one.

I agree totally about the R1a presence in the Scythians and Slavs. I disagree about I2a presence in Illyrians, though... there's no evidence for that and STR diversity in I2a-Din indicates otherwise. I suspect that the modern population Illyrians would have mimicked most closely in their Y-DNA frequencies is Albanians, that is, high R1b, E1b, and J2, but low I2a and R1a.

 

[Cobol19]

Ok. I'm not sure about R1a in Arabs. Maybe they got it before the Aryans and maybe from the Aryans. I don't know that yet.

But I still believe that R1a in Iranic people is Iranic. All west Iranic people is West Asia are very close to each other. I mean even if the Ossetians don't have much R1a genetically they're still very close to Kurds and West Persians. Somehow there's a correlation between West Iranic peoples and the Caucasus.

So Kurdish R1a is still very close to Ossetian G2a for exampel. Even closer than to other non-Iranic R1a.

I think you're mixing the deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA) with the autosomal DNA, and in that respect, the closest to the Kurds based on Dienekes' project were the Iranians (The sample contained Persians for most part), I can't speak for the Ossetians since there was no sample to compare with.

 

[Cobol19]

I agree totally about the R1a presence in the Scythians and Slavs. I disagree about I2a presence in Illyrians, though... there's no evidence for that and STR diversity in I2a-Din indicates otherwise. I suspect that the modern population Illyrians would have mimicked most closely in their Y-DNA frequencies is Albanians, that is, high R1b, E1b, and J2, but low I2a and R1a.

Well, unless ancient DNA is found, this is all speculation, would you say that I2a-Din was mostly in ancient Dacia perhaps?

 

[razor]

Thanks. This seems very plausible (especially for Herodotus' Paralatae). But DNA investigation of classical Scythia (between Don and Danube) could still come up with a few surprises, given the heterogeneous nature of its "Scythian" populations (including the "elder brothers" of the Scythian Foundation Legend).

 

[Cobol19]

Thanks. This seems very plausible (especially for Herodotus' Paralatae). But DNA investigation of classical Scythia (between Don and Danube) could still come up with a few surprises, given the heterogeneous nature of its "Scythian" populations (including the "elder brothers" of the Scythian Foundation Legend).

Maybe, I'm not aware of any ancient DNA studies in Eastern Europe if that was the desirable request, these 26 samples were found in South Siberia, but according to the study, the specimen were European looking and had light features.

 

[Goga]

I think you're mixing the deep ancestry (Y-DNA/mtDNA) with the autosomal DNA, and in that respect, the closest to the Kurds based on Dienekes' project were the Iranians (The sample contained Persians for most part), I can't speak for the Ossetians since there was no sample to compare with.

Well according to the study called "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians" Ossetians are very close to other West Iranic people.

Ossetians have almost the same DNA as other Aryans in West Asia like Kurds and West Persians!

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a common Iranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well as a genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the North Caucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into the circumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

 

[Cobol19]

Well according to the study called "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians" Ossetians are very close to other West Iranic people.
They're like Kurds and West Persians!

"Average pairwise Fst values are smaller between Ossetians and Iranians than between Ossetians and Caucasians for both mtDNA and the Y chromosome, significantly so for mtDNA, which suggests an Iranian origin of Ossetians. Subsequentand largely male-mediated migrations between Ossetians and neighbouring groups in the North andSouth Caucasus, respectively, would explain the greater similarity between Ossetians and Caucasians for the Ychromosome, as discussed previously.
In conclusion, the genetic results are supported bythe archaeological record, in that they reflect a commonIranian origin of South and North Ossetians, as well asa genetic footprint of ancient migrations in the NorthCaucasus that mostly involved male individuals. Thus, genetic studies of such complex and multiple migrationsas the Ossetians can provide additional insights into thecircumstances surrounding such migrations."

http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

I can't speak for mtDNA since I have not examined the numbers, but in terms of Y-DNA the Ossetians proportion is way too different from other West Iranian groups, they're mostly dominant with G2a (Some Ossetian groups even reaching up to 70% and over), while West Iranian groups like the Kurds, Persians, etc are much more diverse, so in terms of Y-DNA frequency, the closest to the Ossetians are other neighboring Caucasian populations, in terms of mtDNA I don't know since I have not checked, and in terms of autosomal DNA, I once again don't know since there's no sample to compare with.

 

[Goga]

I can't speak for mtDNA since I have not examined the numbers, but in terms of Y-DNA the Ossetians proportion is way too different from other West Iranian groups, they're mostly dominant with G2a (Some Ossetian groups even reaching up to 70% and over), while West Iranian groups like the Kurds, Persians, etc are much more diverse, so in terms of Y-DNA frequency, the closest to the Ossetians are other neighboring Caucasian populations, in terms of mtDNA I don't know since I have not checked, and in terms of autosomal DNA, I once again don't know since there's no sample to compare with.

Don't you believe this study?