sea peoples

[zanipolo]

T group arrived in northern italy 17000 years ago

http://www.kerchner.com/haplogroups-mtdna.htm

 

[zanipolo]

sea peoples haplogroup

There are J2 Phoenicians in the later years of their empire. This was verified.

J2 is not old enough to have been the haplogroup of the Sea Peoples , then again , the phoencians did colonise most of the mediterraen . The where the pre - carthagians that battled Rome.

The ancestors of the Sea Peoples would have to have been J.

The 40% J2 population in Malta is a late arrival.

62% of Crete is J2


Was the veneti J2 only due to their trade within the levant?


The Sea Peoples seemed to have mixed with the earlier Caucasian races the Hittites, and Aryans, who were all J1.

 

[how yes no 2]

No, it's not that easy if you look at the roots:

ŠRDN - "Sardinians"
ŠKLŠ - "Sicules"

If Shekelesh was related with Skythians, it'd have been spelled something along the lines of "ŠKT". You'd somehow need to explain how T becomes L in the root. Also, again the Scythians were a steppe people.

ok, what about Sardis as origin of tribal name Sherdana/Serden...

"Spard" or "Sard", another name closely connected to the name Tyrrhenian, was the capital city of the land of Lydia, the original home of the Tyrrhenians; it was referred to by the Greeks as "Sardis". The name preserved by Greek and Egyptian renderings is "Sard," for the Greeks call it "Sardis" and the name appears in the Egyptian inscriptions as "Srdn."[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians


for my theory that doesnot change much, as I am convinced that Balkan Serbs (and identity of other Slavs) origin from European branch of I2 (and perhaps R1a) Serians, while sea peoples were an Asian branch of Serians or Cimmerians... the relationto Serians is extremely clear.... already statement of Bavarian geographer that "the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it" is clear indication of what I claim here...

and even though sea peoples are history of Asian branch of Serians,in wider scope they are part of history of Serians/Cimmerians and thus also of proto-Serbs and proto-Slavs... people who origin from Asian branches of Serians would be Kurdish Sorani, Pasthun Sarbans, and Chuvash (turkic people who has dominantly Slavic genetics and legend of origin from Sabirs - turkic tribe who are located in same place where Serboi of Caucasus were prior to turkic invasions of the area)

as for Sardinians I am sure that their I2a1 in distant history meant strong relationship with other I2 people.... same as their tribal name is clearly related to what I call haplogroup I tribal name pattern: Sardis, Sarbans, Serbs, Scordisci, Serdi, Suebi, Swedes...

 

[zanipolo]

ok, what about Sardis as origin of tribal name Sherdana/Serden...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians


for my theory that doesnot change much, as I am convinced that Balkan Serbs (and identity of other Slavs) origin from European branch of I2 (and perhaps R1a) Serians, while sea peoples were an Asian branch of Serians or Cimmerians... the relationto Serians is extremely clear.... already statement of Bavarian geographer that "the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it" is clear indication of what I claim here...

and even though sea peoples are history of Asian branch of Serians,in wider scope they are part of history of Serians/Cimmerians and thus also of proto-Serbs and proto-Slavs... people who origin from Asian branches of Serians would be Kurdish Sorani, Pasthun Sarbans, and Chuvash (turkic people who has dominantly Slavic genetics and legend of origin from Sabirs - turkic tribe who are located in same place where Serboi of Caucasus were prior to turkic invasions of the area)

as for Sardinians I am sure that their I2a1 in distant history meant strong relationship with other I2 people.... same as their tribal name is clearly related to what I call haplogroup I tribal name pattern: Sardis, Sarbans, Serbs, Scordisci, Serdi, Suebi, Swedes...

I agree that the sardinians have a high % of the I haplogroup, but was it because they where illyric or due to etruscan migration?

Zeruiani stement was -
In the manuscript of the anonymous Bavarian geographer was written: "...Zeruiani (the Serbs), whose kingdom is so great, that from them all the Slav peoples came into being and are said to originate from them."
This is from the 10th century AD, why do you try to match something which is "young" for ita ancient association. Its clearly from someone without historical knowledge

This zeruiani is this meant to be serb, while Horvati is meant to be craotion?

 

[how yes no 2]

This zeruiani is this meant to be serb, while Horvati is meant to be craotion?
[/I]

Horvati means croissant
and yes Conan the Cimmerian was Serb

but seriously, I think that Croats tribal name is derived from tribal name of Hurians... Hurians were in my opinion R1a people and some of them ended up turkic (ak+hur = Og+ hur =Ogur = Ugri), some Slavic (Croats and also many Carpathian Slavs who did use tribal name white Croats)...

tribal names of Serians and Hurians go far beyond ancestors of present days Serbs and Croats... it is just that Serbs and Croats are the parts who has kept ancient tribal names...

e.g I think that Germanic Sciri and Hirri are again branches of Serians and Hurians who probably ended up in Germanic people, Celtic Scordisci and Helvetti perhaps again origin from Serians and Hurians...

Serians/Cimmerians and Hurians(?) might have been tribal names of proto-Indo-European people

so, term Serian is much much wider than term Serb today is... I think it was mostly about haplogroup I2 people...but it could have been in same time about R1a as well...

Serbs of today in my opinion origin mostly from Scordisci/Serdi who went around along Danube in Celtic spread from Bohemia to Serbia, and than during Roman expansion back to Bohemia, and than as Slavs back to Serbia...
that is why Byzantine emperor says they come from land Boiki (that by the description he gives matches only Bohemia) where they also originally dwelt... note that he does not imply continuity of living in Bohemia before moving to Balkan but instead he says that they also originally dwelt there...there is a reason why one of previous Byzantine emperors called Serbs to settle on Balkan...you do not just call distant barbarians to settle....in my opinion it's because they were related to previous people who lived in Serbia... they would origin from those Seneca's Serians who dare to cross frozen Danube...

I agree that the sardinians have a high % of the I haplogroup, but was it because they where illyric or due to etruscan migration?

Zeruiani stement was -
In the manuscript of the anonymous Bavarian geographer was written: "...Zeruiani (the Serbs), whose kingdom is so great, that from them all the Slav peoples came into being and are said to originate from them."
This is from the 10th century AD, why do you try to match something which is "young" for ita ancient association. Its clearly from someone without historical knowledge

I think Illyrians were actually E-V13 and also J2, and that Tosks would be probably closest to those people
reason I think so is that E-V13 shows high variation but low frequency in Dalmatia where core of Illyrians was...

Serbs origin from Scordisci, and we know that Scordisci lived mixed with Illyrians... that explains large E-V13 and significant J haplogroups in Serbs of today...

back to Zeruiani...


Zeruiani is same tribal name as Serians that is quite clear....

I do not think that German historian in 10 century would invent previous big state of Slavic people... he heard about it and wrote down what he heard... was he lied to? from what I have gathered in this posts, I do not think so...

Seneca clearly speaks about how big the state of Serians was - northwest China (Serica), areas in Europe (ruling over scattered Scythians places them in east Europe and crossing frozen Danube on bear feet means they live around Danube), living unguarded from Sarmatians in Caspian highlands (which maps to Serboi recodrded by Ptolemy in Caucasus and to Siraces on northeast shores of Black sea who origin from them), and having control over Red sea ...

how big state was you can see by tribal names Serboi in Caucasus (later after turkic invasion of Caucasus they became Sabirs and than Chuvash people - today Chuvash people are turkic people who are thought to partially origin from Sabirs and have autosomal genetic of Slavic people ), by looking at tribal names of Pasthun Sarbans, Kurds Sorani... and by looking at traces of haplogroup I in Asia.... R1a was part of this, but it was also Scythians who spread it throughout Asia, so it is not so clear to see Serians in it... Serians of Red sea map to usage of yet another tribal name related to the one of the Serbs - Sheba/Sabbeans...

on north shores of Black sea Serians = Siraces (most hellenized of all Sarmatians and thought to be same as Serboi or related to them)

what I have shown here is that Serians were most likely Cimmerians... and that they were related to Veneti tribes...

related tribal names Cimmerian/Serian/ Serb were very wide spread... and so was the populous race of Veneti... how much is this covered by genetics is hard to say... from what I see both Cimmerians and Veneti map fairly well to I2 people...

so big spread means that when we speak of Serians it was possibly some ancient old large kingdom... tribal name Serbs was used there...that doesnot mean that those were all same as Balkan Serbs...it means that Balkan Serbs are the people who along some other have preserved that tribal name...

regarding your interest for Veneti, in my opinion Adriatic Veneti might have had dominant J2 and R1b but that would be due to italic people and Illyrians...while I am sure that their tribal name was related to originally I2 Veneti..perhaps in case of Adriatic Veneti I2 could have been mostly I2a1 as in Sardinians

 

[how yes no 2]

btw. a bit off topic about relation of Cimmerians/Serians to Illyrians...
I think that tribes of Serians/Cimmerians had nothing to do with Illyrians...
while Serians/Cimmerians were in my opinion I2 + some R1a people, I think that Illyrians probably originally were E-V13 and J2 with some R1b as well...

thing is that Dalmatia had several waves of almost complete depopulation...Strabo records that Dacians during their wars with Celtic people such as Boii depopulated Illyria.. it was resettled by Pannonians who I think already were I2a2 and perhaps proto-Slav related people... a clue for this is in few preserved "Illyrian" words from Roman times actually mapping to Slavic, also Oseriates are tribe who lives on big complex of lakes (Plitvice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plitvice)... and their tribal name has clear relation to lake people only in Slavic languages... (jezero/ozero = lake)

than there were various barbarians who were entering violently in that area... from historic sources Goths were very brutal in ethnically cleansing the area...and so were Avars...in the end came various Slav groups... both Serbs and Croats were called by Byzantine emperors to settle the depopulated area...so they didnot come as conquerers...

very high variance and very low frequency of haplogroup E-V13 in Croatia speaks of genocide....
Croats have less E-V13 than e.g. Germans, but by far highest variance of E-V13 in Europe... it's not a peacefull migration to Albania as than Albanians would have much larger variance.. it is genetic image of genocide... but it is a genocide in many waves: mostly carried out by Dacians, Goths and Avars

Serbs are also told that have been called to settle lands depopulated by Avars...
but unlike Croats Serbs have large E-V13 frequency and relatively low variance, and also significant J haplogroups...I think this is partly due to assimilated previous inhabitants, partly due to probable origin from earlier Scordisci/Serdi who are known to have lived mixed with Illyrians

 

[archaiocapilos]

sea peoples haplogroup

There are J2 Phoenicians in the later years of their empire. This was verified.

J2 is not old enough to have been the haplogroup of the Sea Peoples , then again , the phoencians did colonise most of the mediterraen . The where the pre - carthagians that battled Rome.

The ancestors of the Sea Peoples would have to have been J.

The 40% J2 population in Malta is a late arrival.

62% of Crete is J2


Was the veneti J2 only due to their trade within the levant?


The Sea Peoples seemed to have mixed with the earlier Caucasian races the Hittites, and Aryans, who were all J1.

Crete is 30-35% J2 not 62%. J2 is not only a Phoenician haplogroup, in fact it is more Anatolian than Phoenician and Greek mythology specifically links Minoans with Anatolian groups like Carians and Lycians. If it was a Phoenician influence there should also be a lot of J1 in Crete which is not the case

 

[archaiocapilos]

Well, first off, the case for R1a1a being associated with early Indo-Europeans (or, at least, one early branch of Indo-European speaking peoples) is reasonably plausible. I think it's possible to argue for both genetic and linguistics, but one should be cautious to not mix things up because you make very different statements for very different times there. In my opinion, you can correlate genetics and archaeology, and you can correlate linguistics and archaeology (in particular, you can make statements when a certain word must have entered the vocabulary of a language, because it does conform to certain sound laws, but not to others), but you cannot directly correlate genetics and linguistics.

Secondly, I'm not convinced that the Proto-Slavs lived in the steppe, primarily because Proto/Common Slavic, although lacking maritime terminology, apparently has a lot terms for lakes and forests, which is not consistent with steppe peoples.

R1a1a could only be the haplogroup of Indo-Aryan and Slavic languages not of all Indo-European speakers.
BTW there are forests and enormous lakes in the steppes of central Asia...

 

[how yes no 3]

it was conspiraxcy of northerners.....
key of sea peoples were R1a

they came from Ukraine, which is indicated by Q correlating with R1a in sea peoples conquest area

among R1a Northerners Sherdana were I2a carriers...they are distant ancestors of Kurds

they probably did live originally in the area...

 

[Goga]

They got my attention not so long time ago and I never heard about them even 1 year ago. I'm very much interested in these people. According to me they're very fascinating, because according to many historians they were responsible for the decline of many civilizations in the ancient world, like Hittites, Minoans, Mycenaeans and even Egypt.

I read they these folks came from Sicily or something.

 

[Goga]

@ how yes no,

With all due respect, I like your theories and view of point very much, they're very interesting and original at least. But Kurds do not believe that they're descendants of the Sea People. Kurds are 'Mountain People' and not 'Sea People'.

If you can proof that Kurds are partly descendants of these Sea People, you will rewrite Kurdish history!

 

[Selwyn Greenfrith]

Seafolk = Lands with lots of islands: Scotland, Faeroes, Norway, Denmark, Greece, Finland, Croatia(?) Malta(?)

 

[how yes no 3]

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...1.287842&spn=10.201969,28.059082&source=embed

i would say these (deep blue and magenta pins on the map) are people who origin from Sherdana

R1a1 southern east branch
common ancestor 4400±450 years before present...
i expect they start of from Ukraine...and expand into middle east and central Asia.... note their preference for sea coasts...

essentially, looking at R1a branches at http://r1a.org/3.htm this is origin of R1a in Kurds

this confirms my claims that name Kurds origins from name Sherdana

elsewhere (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27558-origin-of-tribal-names) I have explained that PIE *suerb and *uend were names given by R1a for part of those people living in border lands... hence *suerb gives location name Sirbonis in Egypt named after Sherdana...

origin of tribal name Kurds is thus same as origin of tribal name Serbs and means in language of ancient R1a people "people living in border lands"...warriors in wars, merchants in peace....

central Asian component (green pins especially) is I think related to Sart people...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

Sherdana holding strategic places in south coastal areas of Arabia and India explains why Sart people were known as merchants and thought by some to have been Arabs....they were trading spices from south and silk from north from area called Serica...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica

note green pins also in Serica proper north of Tibet

in mongolian "sar" means moon and explanation for name Sarta is "people with moon (crescent) on the flag"....



flag of Kurdistan also has crescent (moon)

Serbia has 4 crescents on coats of arms.....Serbia is not sampled much in existing databases of R1a but I am curious whether some deep-blue and green pins will appear there in future...especially because there are deep-blue pins in Ukraine, south Poland (white/west Croatia) and Germany (from what I could figure out white/west Serbia fom where Serbs come to Balkan was in Bohemia/Bavaria)

same as in Kurds it is white crescent on red backround (red and white are original Slavic colors - e.g. Croatian checkboard, polish flag...)

crescent are placed such that they turn back to each other as protecting something in the middle - i would say this is symbolic representation of border people - people guarding boarders of R1a (+ I2) people...

 

[Yetos]

flag of Kurdistan also has crescent (moon)

Serbia has 4 crescents on coats of arms.....Serbia is not sampled much in existing databases of R1a but I am curious whether some deep-blue and green pins will appear there in future...especially because there are deep-blue pins in Ukraine, south Poland (white/west Croatia) and Germany (from what I could figure out white/west Serbia fom where Serbs come to Balkan was in Bohemia/Bavaria)

same as in Kurds it is white crescent on red backround (red and white are original Slavic colors - e.g. Croatian checkboard, polish flag...)

All Muslim countries have moons,
Turkish flags had 3 moon as Pakistans also,
Maybe Serbia is a Muslim and Turkish country also ????




Be more careful, cause misunderstandings may happen

 

[how yes no 3]

All Muslim countries have moons,
Turkish flags had 3 moon as Pakistans also,
Maybe Serbia is a Muslim and Turkish country also ????




Be more careful, cause misunderstandings may happen

turkic people are clearly not "moon" people...
their flags do not show moon, but moon with one or more stars...
so they can be "night" people and not "moon" people

in Slavic languages
"srp" = sickle, crescent

 

[Yetos]

turkic people are clearly not "moon" people...
their flags do not show moon, but moon with one or more stars...
so they can be "night" people and not "moon" people

in Slavic languages
"srp" = sickle, crescent

what about Maldives?

Are they Serbs also?
the have cresend but no Star

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Maldives.svg


what about Moggolia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Mongolia.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Uzbekistan.svg


a flag symbol does not mean something sometimes

 

[Alan]

Well the moon indeed is an older symbol and was adopted by muslims. But in this case, the moon on this specific Kurdish flag is connect to Islam. This flag "How yes no" belongs to a Kurdish islamic movement. The real symbol of Kurds is the Sun.

 

[how yes no 3]

notice: some ideas in this post may look very weird to some readers... I do not claim that those are facts...I suggest a set of possible links, some of them might be for readers quite hard to fit in own perception of reality..




Dogons are west African tribe with unexplainable detailed knowledge about remote star system Sirius... they claim to have obtained the knowledge from alien beings that are like humans but adapted for life in water...


Dogons are not the only African tribe that has link to Sirius star system,,,Serer also have Sirius system in their myths of origin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serer_people




Robert Temple was studying Dogons intensively and wrote some books about his findings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9ruJ2t-xaE&feature=relmfu

he says that throughout the world e.g. in chinese mythology there is a stroy about civilization being founded by beings adapted to life in sea
he has reconstructed the voyage of Dogons over time and could trace it to town Sabha in Lybia, and concludes that they origin from Garmantes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garamantes
main town of Garmantes Germa is now called Sabha...
he believes that Dogons have brought their knowledge from ancient Egypt...



however wikipedia gives us opportunity to investigate further roots...
in ancient Babylon a deity of agriculture, fertility and fishing is called Dagon


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon
Hebrew dāg/dâg, 'fish'
Dagon je "fish-god" also half man half fish
Dagon - word that also means grain, seed

I did speak before about Roman historian attributing meaning "seed, grain" to word German and specuilating that this is about original Celts


"The English term Germans is only attested from the mid-16th century, based on the classical Latin term Germani used by Julius Caesar and later Tacitus. It gradually replaced Dutch and Almains, the latter becoming mostly obsolete by the early 18th century"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans

it is possible that tribal name Garamantes comes from the same root...


Dogons - believe in alien beings adapted to life in sea who organized their society
Dagon = half man, half fish
Dagon = grain,seed

Germans/Gomer/Garamantes = grain,seed
this allows us to speculate that tribal name Dogons is derived from deity name Dagon and related to belief in adavanced beings adapted to life in sea who brought them civilization (e.g. agriculture)

note that I did explain before that white Syrians of Cappadokia are in fact very likely same people as Cimmerians or Gomer...
it is very curious that those tribal names tend to come in pair....
Germa/Sabha
Garamantes/Seres
Gomer/Syrians
even dialects in Kurdish areas: Germiyanî is one of Sorani dialects...


now we make excursion to another area with belief in fish-like beings...
it is advanced Neolitics culture of Vinca that was roughly spread on area of nowadays Serbia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinca_culture


on area matching exactly Vinca culture we find later Celtic tribe Scordisci and related thrachanized Serdi
S(c)ord+isci = Serd+ i
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi


with -isci being celtic ending and -i being Thracian
ommition of (c) is explained in same way as in Sclaveni (roman writing) = Slaveni/Sloveni (own name)

Scordisci disaapear with spread of Roman empire...

in same time Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs (and explicitly names among them Serbs, Croats and Carantines) as moving to north in times of Roman expansion - this movement is described to happen from exactly the same Danubian areas where Scordisci are known to live and where before I speculate Sherdana originally lived and where before that Vinca culture existed...


Sherdana left behind them single place name - Serbonis
Serdi took same Danube root to Asia minor as I propse Sherdana did earlier in history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people


curious trace of Sherdana sea people could be R1a1 south-east branch,,,
purple markers do tend to spread via sea red sea, Syria, Tunis,Persian gulf, southwest India , and green markers are matching exactly known spread of Seres./Serians

Serres is in wider term also used for an arc from northwest China to India and we can see that arc clearly made in Seres proper from green dots and in Afghanistan and Pakistan by purple dots....
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...2&source=embed

note that databases are scarce with R1a1 data from Serbia, but scientific papers indicates that in Euroasia it is oldest in Serbia...which suggests in fact presence of both green and purple markers.....

I do wonder whether Serer people of Africa may as well origin from Garamantes and be part of people related to Seres /Serians/Syrians...it is not impossible considering the purple dot found all the way in Tunis...


note also the match of all those tribal names to the name of star system Sirius

note also that Sherdana left behind them a single place name - Sirbonis/Serbonis


I suggest possible partial continuity of modern Serbs from european branch of Sherdana via Scordisci/Serdi/Danubian Slavs...and continuity of Kurds from eastern branch of Sherdana... I also believe that these people may partly origin from Vinca culture in which sea beings were worshiped as deities...


and final link

Karlovac rodoslov from 16th century dealing with pre-histroy of Serbs mentions this:
According to it, during the Emperor Licinius: "All Serbs worshipped Dagon. From Dagon the Dagonians and Dacians received their names; From Ser, all the Serbs." and "Among many others he [Licinius] persecuted the saints and martyrs Jermil and Stratonik, who were in Dagonia, near the Ister (Danube)".^[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlovacki_Rodoslov

hence there is a link between Serbs and Dagon

and name Dacians is related to Dagon!
if Serbs are Dacian related people this explains that wolf is important animal to Dacians, Kurds and Serbs, and also to Lycians ( Lukka of sea peoples and also known that several of their leaders had name Sarpedon which I think just meant king of Serbs) and also existance in those areas of typical circular dances with holding hands...(similar dance in west Euirope only exist in Catalonia where it is called Sardana)


now lets skip for a moment the border of known reality and try to imagine what would be genetical implication of some admixture of advanced beings living in a sea to some group of people......

i would expect to see tradition carried in carrying the name "sea people" and big talent for water sports in particular waterpolo...

ex-yugoslavia is part of world that is immensely talented for waterpolo, even though there were only few clubs (e.g. in Serbia currently in total 32 clubs most of them founded in last few years)
but yet most of gold, silver, bronze meadils on all kinds of competitions went to ex-Yugoslavia and countries derived from it: Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia

ex-Yugoslavia
Olympic Games record

• 1936 – First round
• 1948 – Second round
• 1952 – Silver Medal
• 1956 – Silver Medal
• 1960 – 4th place
• 1964 – Silver Medal
• 1968 – Gold Medal
• 1972 – 5th place
• 1976 – 5th place
• 1980 – Silver Medal
• 1984 – Gold Medal
• 1988 – Gold Medal
• 1992 – Didn't participate

World Championship record

• 1973 — Bronze Medal
• 1975 — 13th place
• 1978 — Bronze Medal
• 1982 — 7th place
• 1986 — Gold Medal
• 1991 — Gold Medal

World Cup record

• 1979 — Bronze Medal
• 1981 — Silver Medal
• 1983 — Didn't participate
• 1985 — 4th place
• 1987 — Gold Medal
• 1989 — Gold Medal
• 1991 — Silver Medal

European Championship record

• 1950 — Bronze Medal
• 1954 — Silver Medal
• 1958 — Silver Medal
• 1962 — Silver Medal
• 1966 — Bronze Medal
• 1970 — Bronze Medal
• 1974 — Bronze Medal
• 1977 — Silver Medal
• 1985 — Silver Medal
• 1987 — Silver Medal
• 1989 — Silver Medal
• 1991 — Gold Medal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslavia_men's_national_water_polo_team


FR Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro)

Olympic Games record

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2"]As FR Yugoslavia[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1992[/TD]
[TD]Didn't participate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1996[/TD]
[TD]8th[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #CC9966"]
[TD]2000[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2"]As Serbia and Montenegro[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: silver"]
[TD]2004[/TD]
[TD]2nd[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

World Aquatics Championship

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2"]As FR Yugoslavia[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1994[/TD]
[TD]Didn't participate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #CC9966"]
[TD]1998[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: silver"]
[TD]2001[/TD]
[TD]2nd[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2"]As Serbia and Montenegro[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #CC9966"]
[TD] 2003[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD]2005[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


European Championship


[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2"]As FR Yugoslavia[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1993[/TD]
[TD]Didn't participate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1995[/TD]
[TD]Didn't participate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: silver"]
[TD]1997[/TD]
[TD]2nd[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1999[/TD]
[TD]7th[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD]2001[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2"]As Serbia and Montenegro[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

FINA World League

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2"]As FR Yugoslavia[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD] 2002[/TD]
[TD]Didn't participate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2"]As Serbia and Montenegro[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2003[/TD]
[TD]4th[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: silver"]
[TD] 2004[/TD]
[TD]2nd[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD]2005[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD]2006[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Serbia

Olympic Games record

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR="bgcolor: #CC9966"]
[TD]2008[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #CC9966"]
[TD]2012[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

World Aquatics Championship

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR]
[TD]2007[/TD]
[TD]4th[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD]2009[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: silver"]
[TD]2011[/TD]
[TD]2nd[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

European Championship

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD]2006[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: silver"]
[TD]2008[/TD]
[TD]2nd[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #CC9966"]
[TD]2010[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD]2012[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

FINA World League

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD]2007[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD]2008[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #CC9966"]
[TD]2009[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD]2010[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: gold"]
[TD]2011[/TD]
[TD]1st[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR="bgcolor: #CC9966"]
[TD]2012[/TD]
[TD]3rd[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_men's_national_water_polo_team_statistics

Montenegro
European Championship

• 2008 — 1st place

• 2010 — 5th place

• 2012 — 2nd place

Olympic Games

• 2008 — 4th place
• 2012 — 4th place

Olympic Games Qualification Tournament

• 2012 — 1st place

FINA World League

• 2007 — Preliminary round

• 2008 — 4th place

• 2009 —1st place

• 2010 — 2nd place

• 2011 — 5th place

• 2012 — does not participate

World Championship

• 2009 — 9th place

• 2011 — 7th place

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro_national_water_polo_team

Croatia

Olympic Games

• 1992 – Didn't participate
• 1996 – Silver Medal
• 2000 – Seventh place
• 2004 – Tenth place
• 2008 – Sixth place
• 2012 – Gold Medal

World Championship

• 1994 — 4th place
• 1998 — 9th place
• 2001 — 8th place
• 2003 — 9th place
• 2005 — 4th place
• 2007 — Gold Medal
• 2009 — Bronze Medal
• 2011 — Bronze Medal

European Championship

• 1993 — Fifth place
• 1995 — Fourth place
• 1997 — Fourth place
• 1999 —Silver Medal
• 2001 — Fourth place
• 2003 — Silver Medal
• 2006 — Seventh place
• 2008 — Fourth place
• 2010 — Gold Medal

FINA World League

• 2002 — 7th place
• 2003 — Didn't participate
• 2004 — Didn't participate
• 2005 — 4th place
• 2006 — Semifinal round
• 2007 — Preliminary round
• 2008 — Preliminary round
• 2009 — Silver Medal
• 2010 — Bronze Medal
• 2011 — Bronze Medal
• 2012 — Gold Medal

FINA Water Polo World Cup

• 1991 — Didn't participate
• 1993 — Didn't participate
• 1995 — 8th place
• 1997 — 8th place
• 1999 — Didn't participate
• 2002 — 8th place
• 2006 — 4th place
• 2010 — Silver Medal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_national_water_polo_team


Isn't this a remarkable talent for water sports in particular waterpolo that we find in south Slavs?
Does the talent come from genetics?
Are south Slavs descendants of "sea people"?

and more curious can this possibly genetic trait be linked to the legends of mysterious humanoid beings adapted to life in water, from beings that originate in star system Sirius?

and do not ask me am I Serious

 

[how yes no 3]

back to Karlovac rodoslov

" "All Serbs worshipped Dagon. From Dagon the Dagonians and Dacians received their names; From Ser, all the Serbs."

so, Dagon is paired with Ser. But who is Ser?
perhaps his wife?

Dagan's wife was in some sources the goddess Shala (also named as wife of Adad and sometimes identified with Ninlil). In other texts, his wife isIshara.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon

Ishara (išḫara) is the Hittite word for "treaty, binding promise", also personified as a goddess of the oath.
In Hurrian and Semitic traditions, Išḫara is a love goddess, often identified with Ishtar.

The name is from a PIE root *sh[SUB]2[/SUB]ei "to bind (also magically)", char in Bulgarian "magical charming", also in Greek himas "strap" and Old Norse / Old High German seil "rope". Possibly also cognate is soul, and Welsh Gwen-hwyfar (Irish Find-abair, from Proto-Celtic *windo-seibaro- "white ghost", from a meaning "enchanted" of the extended root *sh[SUB]2[/SUB]ei-bh-). ishar (or eshar), oblique ishan-, the Hittite for "blood" is probably derived from the same root, maybe from a notion of "bond" between blood-relations (c.f. Sanskrit bandhu). The verb ishiya "to bind, fetter", "to oblige" is directly cognate to Sanskrit syati or Russian shyot with similar meanings.

Her astrological embodiment is the constellation Scorpio and she is called the mother of the Sebitti (the Seven Stars) (Seux, 343). Ishara was well known in Syria from the third millennium B.C. She became a great goddess of the Hurrian population. .... she was invoked to heal the sick (Lebrun).^[1]
The Hurrian cult of Ishara as a love goddess also spread to Syria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishara

Ishtar (pronounced /ˈɪʃtɑːr/; Transliteration: ^DIŠTAR; Akkadian: ������������ ; Sumerian ������������������) is the Assyrian and Babylonian goddess of fertility, war, love, and sex.^[1] She is the counterpart to theSumerian Inanna and to the cognate north-west Semitic goddess Astarte.
Ishtar was the goddess of love and war, above all associated with sexuality.....
In the Babylonian pantheon, she "was the divine personification of the planet Venus".^[4]

we know that in latin alternative name for Danube is Ister....
question is whether this could be a legacy to a worship of Ishtar godess, wife of Dagon.....
Vinca culture worships fish-like beings like Dagon...

Karlovac rodoslov tells that all Serbs worshiped Dagon and got their name from Ser, while Dacians got name from Dagon. This looks like a pair of deities where west part (Danubian) got name after female, and east part Dacia after male.....

Danube area where they live would accordingly be named Ister...
among Dacians are Carpi/Harpi who can perhaps be mapped to later Croats (Hrvati)...

if Ser comes from Ishara/ Ister there ought to be alike goddess in Slavic mythology to which when religion was changed tribal name is transfered....

and it is Zorya

"She is depicted as a warrior goddess, fully armed and courageous, and was invoked to protect against death in battle with the prayer "Defend me, O maiden, with your veil from the enemy, from the arquebus and arrow..."^{[citation needed]} She is a patroness of horses, protection, exorcism, and the planet Venus, and Slavs would pray to her each morning as the sun rose.^[4] "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya

now, Ishtar was related to Venus and so is Zorya... they are both also war goddesses and love godesses...

this is related to what i was writing before about Zorya/Danica goddess ...
i was writing about Serians/Zeruiani ("state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs origin from it" - Bavarian geographer) being in fact Zoryans - people of Zorya....

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26546-Dacian-Language&p=374314&viewfull=1#post374314



Zorya serves the sun god Dažbog = Daž + bog (slavic for 'god') - could this god be legacy of Dagon worship? Dag -> Daž?

in Slavic mythology Dazbog is not central god, he is replaced with PIE god Perun (same as Baltic Perkunas, Celtic Taranis, germanic Thor).... logically, in some myths Zorya is Perun's wife, while she is said to serve Dažbog....



worship of Dagon is mentioned in old testament as worshiped by tribe of Asher:

In the Tanakh (also referred to as the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible), Dagon is particularly the god of the Philistines with temples at Beth-dagon in thetribe of Asher (Joshua 19.27), in Gaza (Judges16.23, which tells soon after how the temple is destroyed by Samson as his last act).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_of_Asher

tribe of Asher is one of the ten lost tribes of Israel....

wikipedia makes curious sentence from suspicious source "Asher Tribe also has links to preancient and ancient India, China and Central Asia, Siberia and Europe, as well as the Americas"

now, if Philistines partially origin from "sea people" (e.g. tribe Dan from Denyen) than Asher can be related to tribal name of Serres/Serians which is a tribe related to Siberia, central Asia, China and Europe...

........................................................................................................


note that tribal name such as Deutch may as well be derived from Dagon in same way as Dacians.... name Dutch is exonym comming from England....


it is interesting to wonder whether name of central deity has legacy in modern languages

in many cultures, it would be normal to greet people with mention of God...
a day/night cycle is also typically related to primary God...
hence it is expected that a word for "day" may have something to do with ancient deities...

"day" also as in greeting "good day" in dutch is "Dag" in german "tag" which could relate to Dagon

english "day" however may come from "Dei" as in "deity" like Greek Deus

in Slavic countries "day" is "dan" and for "dawn" is "zora/zorya"
(Zorya/Danica)


it might indicate that english language doesnot origin from area of Dagon
hence there "dog" is word used for tamed wolf (wolfs being people under Dagon - e.g. Dacians...)
in english in fact word "God" is reversed of "Dog"
while in Slavic reversed deity would now be referred to as "Gad"...

the differences that we see in language could be a reflection of an old division in religious groups....

Dacians and Germans being Dagon worship areas, Slavs being related to Isher/Ishtar/Ser/Zorya
and Scandinavians and Danes (from where english comes to UK) being perhaps originally related to some other religion....maybe something alike to the one of ancient Greeks...


----------------------------------------------------------
after linking Ishara/ Ishtar/Ser/Zorya
and relating ancient ancestors of Serbs with Dagon worship

maybe link to Celtic connection should be reexplored...
in
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...bian-parallels&p=390588&viewfull=1#post390588

Taranis claimed
"Danu is an Indo-European river/mother goddess found both in Celtic and in Hindu mythology. It is clearly unrelated with the Slavic word for day, and a connection with Zorya (or with "Danitsa") is completely spurious."
Zorya = Dawn Dan = day
its about mother goddess essentially


if Zorya is in fact Ishar/Ishtar as I show above and
Danube (where Danubian Slavs who worship her live), is alternativelly called Istar,
does not that give a clue that it is the more or less the same godess afterall

"Dagda is derived from earlier *Dagodeiwos (as you wrote above), meaning 'good god'. Dagda is also known as "Ollathair"
- Dajbog is derived from Proto-Slavic *dati- (to give, compare with Latin "dare", Greek "dosis") and PIE *bhag- (to divide, compare Sanskrit "bhajati" - "to distribute"). Dajbog is thus the "giving god" or possibly, the "giver of wealth"."

in my opinion both were legacy of Dagon worship....
what is "good god" but the one who "gives"...
but it is not that God is named after words, but words came to existance after name of God...Dagon in this case...

-------------------------------------
note that Zeruiani are widely interpreted and Serbs, but in fact that is in my opinion name of pre-Slavic people.... while Serbs are a border part of that stock... e.g. same like Zebulun tribe of Israel is on south border of tribe Asher....

this is logical comparison as Israel area was likely settled during invasion of sea peoples coming from north... and as legend says northerners made a conspiracy and united to invade south areas..... tribes of Israel are perhaps a set of colonies founded by various northern nations....

 

[how yes no 3]

note that Zeruiani are widely interpreted as Serbs, but in fact that is in my opinion name of pre-Slavic people.... while Serbs are a border part of that stock... e.g. same like Zebulun tribe of Israel is on south border of tribe Asher....

this is logical comparison as Israel area was likely settled during invasion of sea peoples coming from north... and as legend says northerners made a conspiracy and united to invade south areas..... tribes of Israel are perhaps a set of colonies founded by various northern nations....

Curiously, a son of Zebulun is called Sered, founder of family/tribe Seredites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebulun

Now, Seredites would logically be written down as "srd" in middle east manuscripts, which is a name under which we find Sherdana...

note that i do not imply Israelite origin of Sered...
what I say is that every Israelite tribe had myth of origin that defined its relation to other tribes and that Israelite manuscripts wrote those down.... while Sered people perhaps existed much before this is written down and same as other northerners who came with "sea people" majority of them lived outside of their Palestine colony.....

but it is just an idea of course...


Asher is probably same as ancient Assyrian/Syrian
now core of Asyrian empire matches in shape and location fairly well distribution of Kurds today

Sorani (central Kurdish folk) would be a continuation of Asher/Assyrian/Syrian tribal name...


Egyptian sources: in 12th century Hittite collapse and their lands (Hatti, Karkemisch, Syria...) are taken over by sea people....sea people are coalition of northerners from all lands....
Assyrian sources: in 12th century Hittite falls under Phrygians and Assyrians take over what is now called Syria (but Assyrians = Syrians in Greek sources)

now, this leads to conclusion: among "sea people" are Phrygians, but probably allied with Assyrians and some other people...or as Egyptians stated "northerners from all sides".

why "sea people"? perhaps many of them share Dagon worship religion....worship of genuine "sea people".... but is that really the case?