Angela
Elite member
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Sorry; you're misinformed. Proselytism by Jews was made a crime punishable by death as soon as Christianity became the religion of the Empire. The only exception would be non-Christian areas like some in Lithuania when the Jews first arrived, because they were still pagans.
Barbara Aiello is a quack in my opinion. Her meanderings have no place in a site dedicated to genetics and actual historical research.
As for the historian you cite, this is the kind of "history" he pursues.
"[FONT="]we must reject the prejudice of those who affirm that we cannot speak of a Jewish presence in centers where there are no written documents to confirm it. For them, the answer of an absolute authority such as Lucien Febvre is enough: “History is made, without a doubt, with written documents. When there is. But it can and must be done without written documents, if none exist. By means of all that the historian's ingenuity allows him to use to make his honey, in the absence of the flowers normally used. So with words. With signs. With landscapes and with bricks. With forms of fields and with bad herbs. With the eclipses of the moon and the attacks of draft horses. With the expertise on stones made by geologists and with the analysis of metals made by chemists. In a word, with all that, being proper to man,it means the presence, the activity, the ways of being of man ”.
"[/FONT][FONT="]history of the Jewish presence also in this area must be sought and reconstructed little by little, piece by piece, starting also from the silences and from nothing, given that the expulsion of the Jews from Calabria has determined a total oblivion on their presence in ours. region. It must be said, however, that, compared to other Calabrian communities (small and large) that are proud to have hosted Jewish 'colonies' even without having a written history, some signs can be found in the Lamezia area. We start from Nicastro. The presence of Jews in Nicastro, at the current state of research, is historically documented in the thirteenth century, although it cannot be excluded that,like other Jewish communities that came to Calabria and Sicily following the Arabs, they had already settled there between the end of the 9th and the beginning of the 10th century. in conjunction with the Saracen raids of that period, when the first settlement called Musconà was born. The Jewish presence in Nicastro, however, is not extensively documented by any of the most accredited Nicastro historian.
[/FONT]Are you seriously putting forth the proposition that a genetic impact by Jews on Calabrians is "proved" by hints, or, even worse, silences, i.e. the ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE that there were Jewish communities in Calabrian towns?
Let us say that the stories recounted by some old people that there used to be a Jewish community in X,Y, or Z town were true. SO WHAT? Come to Livorno, where there was a large, thriving Jewish community which lasted down to the modern era. The great Italian painter Modigliani was part of that community. Hell, Pontremoli, a village in the Lunigiana, had a Jewish community. In fact, a very famous family of Rabbis who left when there was rioting promoted by Gentile merchants and settled in Salonica was named Pontremoli. So did La Spezia, and Genova, and dozens of towns in Piemonte and in the Romagna. Check out France, southern France, in particular, or Germany or Greece or numerous areas under the control of the Ottomans. When they saw an economic opportunity, or, as in the case of Pontremoli they were invited to settle to set up trade, Jewish communities would spring up. When they were persecuted by the locals or expelled by a new ruler they left and settled somewhere else. The pattern is the same all over Europe.
You are sadly misinformed about the history of European Jewry if you believe there was anything unique about Calabria or Sicily in that regard.
More importantly, even in cases of DOCUMENTED Jewish settlements, the idea that when persecuted any significant percentage of them remained would need SOME, ACTUAL evidence to be worthy of serious discussion. Even more ludicrous is the idea that a small percentage of a small group would have asignificant genetic impact on the surrounding population. Do you have any idea how small these Jewish enclaves were? Livorno indeed was home to a relatively large number of Jews. However, Pontremoli, larger than most of the Calabrian towns you're discussing, had six families at the most populous time. SIX!
Plus, Jews, until they were emancipated by the Napoleonic Code, were living in ghettos where they were locked in at night and the gates were opened in the morning. The descriptions of the conditions in the ghettos in Piemonte and even in the larger ghetto in Rome are horrifying. If there were riots, etc., resulting in an exodus, how many people would take in some stragglers who wanted to remain? The only path for them would have been to present themselves to the local priest or to a Bishop and ask to be baptized. Were there any? Yes, there were. Enough to change the genetics of a region? No, there weren't.
Now, enough of this nonsense.
This is a place for genetics and serious historical research, not fantasy.
Barbara Aiello is a quack in my opinion. Her meanderings have no place in a site dedicated to genetics and actual historical research.
As for the historian you cite, this is the kind of "history" he pursues.
"[FONT="]we must reject the prejudice of those who affirm that we cannot speak of a Jewish presence in centers where there are no written documents to confirm it. For them, the answer of an absolute authority such as Lucien Febvre is enough: “History is made, without a doubt, with written documents. When there is. But it can and must be done without written documents, if none exist. By means of all that the historian's ingenuity allows him to use to make his honey, in the absence of the flowers normally used. So with words. With signs. With landscapes and with bricks. With forms of fields and with bad herbs. With the eclipses of the moon and the attacks of draft horses. With the expertise on stones made by geologists and with the analysis of metals made by chemists. In a word, with all that, being proper to man,it means the presence, the activity, the ways of being of man ”.
"[/FONT][FONT="]history of the Jewish presence also in this area must be sought and reconstructed little by little, piece by piece, starting also from the silences and from nothing, given that the expulsion of the Jews from Calabria has determined a total oblivion on their presence in ours. region. It must be said, however, that, compared to other Calabrian communities (small and large) that are proud to have hosted Jewish 'colonies' even without having a written history, some signs can be found in the Lamezia area. We start from Nicastro. The presence of Jews in Nicastro, at the current state of research, is historically documented in the thirteenth century, although it cannot be excluded that,like other Jewish communities that came to Calabria and Sicily following the Arabs, they had already settled there between the end of the 9th and the beginning of the 10th century. in conjunction with the Saracen raids of that period, when the first settlement called Musconà was born. The Jewish presence in Nicastro, however, is not extensively documented by any of the most accredited Nicastro historian.
[/FONT]Are you seriously putting forth the proposition that a genetic impact by Jews on Calabrians is "proved" by hints, or, even worse, silences, i.e. the ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE that there were Jewish communities in Calabrian towns?
Let us say that the stories recounted by some old people that there used to be a Jewish community in X,Y, or Z town were true. SO WHAT? Come to Livorno, where there was a large, thriving Jewish community which lasted down to the modern era. The great Italian painter Modigliani was part of that community. Hell, Pontremoli, a village in the Lunigiana, had a Jewish community. In fact, a very famous family of Rabbis who left when there was rioting promoted by Gentile merchants and settled in Salonica was named Pontremoli. So did La Spezia, and Genova, and dozens of towns in Piemonte and in the Romagna. Check out France, southern France, in particular, or Germany or Greece or numerous areas under the control of the Ottomans. When they saw an economic opportunity, or, as in the case of Pontremoli they were invited to settle to set up trade, Jewish communities would spring up. When they were persecuted by the locals or expelled by a new ruler they left and settled somewhere else. The pattern is the same all over Europe.
You are sadly misinformed about the history of European Jewry if you believe there was anything unique about Calabria or Sicily in that regard.
More importantly, even in cases of DOCUMENTED Jewish settlements, the idea that when persecuted any significant percentage of them remained would need SOME, ACTUAL evidence to be worthy of serious discussion. Even more ludicrous is the idea that a small percentage of a small group would have asignificant genetic impact on the surrounding population. Do you have any idea how small these Jewish enclaves were? Livorno indeed was home to a relatively large number of Jews. However, Pontremoli, larger than most of the Calabrian towns you're discussing, had six families at the most populous time. SIX!
Plus, Jews, until they were emancipated by the Napoleonic Code, were living in ghettos where they were locked in at night and the gates were opened in the morning. The descriptions of the conditions in the ghettos in Piemonte and even in the larger ghetto in Rome are horrifying. If there were riots, etc., resulting in an exodus, how many people would take in some stragglers who wanted to remain? The only path for them would have been to present themselves to the local priest or to a Bishop and ask to be baptized. Were there any? Yes, there were. Enough to change the genetics of a region? No, there weren't.
Now, enough of this nonsense.
This is a place for genetics and serious historical research, not fantasy.