Economy Should Greece Leave the Euro?

[iapetoc]

I don't know

for some reasons it is an advance for Greece to leave Eurozone,

1rst will stop immigration illegal or not

2nd will help to return the borrowing money as material and goods and production, and not as money values,

3rd will make Greek economy to be most flexible as prices and cost will drop.

the only ones will lose from Greek go back to Drachma will be the Germans,

same for Italy spain and Portugal,

High values of Euro works as a break in South Economies,
if Greece leaves Euro but remain in EE in 5 year time Greece will overpass and will start to produce goods that today cost a lot,
so it is a threat to strong economies,

besides if Greece leaves Euro next day 2 000 000 workers and emmigrants will run in EE for work.

the problem in Greece is 1 High production taxes 25%
big governor and public workers >40%
bad politicians the last 30 years

so to solve problem

1 must hung most of politician
2 must send away lots of public workers
3 low taxes in first and second degree of production

instead IMF is driving to opposite site
1 Help politician to say lies
2 cuts off salaries etc
3 raises taxes not only in consuming but also in production

I believe that Greek crisis is well driven model on how handle same situations in Future, so not to hurt strong economies,

I hope Greece return back to Drachmas,
the next day 2 million non Greeks legal and illegal immigrants will run to rest of EU

 

[Reinaert]

Well, the EU was a fine idea, and it worked quite well, until Britain became a member. They torpedoed a "social paragraph" in the EU guidelines. Dirty Maggy Mae Thatcher, together with Ronald Reaguns started the boost of neo conservative capitalism.

The British economy got in shambles. People took money from the bank to buy shares, and after a while the shares went down and they had to sell their house. The same rigid policy is taken over by the Dutch government.

We have had many years that the Dutch should stay on the same wages, while everything gets more expensive.
To secure a strong euro, and a strong economy. And who profits from that?
Not the people. The banks and big companies.

And they, as a farewell thanks, invest in China now..

Except some good banks, where I invest my money in.
For the benefit of the people, not the bloody capitalists!

 

[Maciamo]

The euro being so overvalued at the moment, the financial problems of Greece, Portugal and Ireland might actually be good for the euro, by scaring some investors away. Otherwise the euro might go back to levels of 1.6 USD like in 2008.

The best system might be one that uses multiple currencies at the same time within a same country, if not for everything, at least for commerce. It's already the case on many eCommerce websites, where customers are free to choose the currency in which they pay. This way, big exporters wouldn't be disadvantaged by a strong euro (and can always change back their Forex to euro once the euro is cheaper).

 

[Elias2]

The euro being so overvalued at the moment, the financial problems of Greece, Portugal and Ireland might actually be good for the euro, by scaring some investors away. Otherwise the euro might go back to levels of 1.6 USD like in 2008.

The best system might be one that uses multiple currencies at the same time within a same country, if not for everything, at least for commerce. It's already the case on many eCommerce websites, where customers are free to choose the currency in which they pay. This way, big exporters wouldn't be disadvantaged by a strong euro (and can always change back their Forex to euro once the euro is cheaper).

I think this is true aswell. Some people think this crisis is going to be the end of the EU project (you know who you are! haters! :cool-v , but really its probably the biggest test this new system can go through and point out the weaknesses in the currency.

On Greece, it's probably going to default in the next year. Germany might be angry but it saves a decade of hard austarity in greece with no growth.

 

[Riccardo]

No! It would be the real start of the European failure with all that this concerns...

The real problem are not "P.I.G.S." (I think that this acronym is stupid and offensive)...But how can European states lie to us Europeans trying to show an Union that is everything but an Union?
They should try to think less in a geo-political way...We are a weak continent nowdays and politicians think their own state is a super-power. They should put the basis for a true political Union. That's the only way to the growth.

 

[iapetoc]

Well the road Back has started,
the last 2-3 days all newspappers say the same,
Greek probably from september is going back to Drachmas,

that is a good point for me,
1 Gives flexibility to Greece to solve problems,
2 as EU since Euro is no longer currency of Greece, will send at least 2-4 000 000 half working immigrants to rest of Europe,

the next I am expecting is to change laws of immigration and unemployment,

and the best is to send (KICK) back the 3 heads of EU commision to salvation, cause instead of solving problem, they push Gov to sell Islands to Big Corp, and even to Turkish businessman

late statistics say that 50% of Greek money is off the Greek Banks,
Greek money is devastating to Bulgaria and Albania,
it is estimated that 300 000 greeks open business in Bulgaria, and work there, while in Greece devastate the last 10 years 2 000 000 Arabs and Pakistans and 1,500 000 of Albanians,
well in September we will either see Euro to jump high, or drop to 1:1 with dollar,
I am proud I am Greek, But I am not proud for Greek Politicians,
They 98 % sting
from 1978 and after they started to de-industrialize Greece, while all projects cost 3-5 times due to black money,
Typical is the case of sub-marines a duel among Greece and Germany economy, as also the siemens scandals in Greece.
And the case of Spanish Bank tolls, which from 2 Euro / 100 km became 11.40 E/100 km.

Greek politicians they vote a law so they never go to prison,
even an Austrian judge try to send a case in court by nothing,
the great stupidity is that make 'search scandal groups' to search , but they mostly hide scandals,
that is the problem if a country has 1 and 1 ruler prime minister, that is for make laws, votes Laws, Execute Law,
personally I believe that Greece must change constitution and gov form to a more rulers than 1,

if a country like north Greece has >25% unemployment, then you, your family, and the whole cousins vote a politician just to find you a work,
ty.

 

[iapetoc]

well we are not sure about that,

the last news in Greece is different,

seems like central-right of parliament is against of written orders to save economy,
Greeks wants to send the Τροικα (the 3 economical EU managers) back to Brussels
cause they are trying to make Greeks to sell everything they have, very cheap,
the orders that Troika gave seems like are sinking Deeply Greek economy,
and many started to think against the measure,

the other about immigration and locals, seems like a war is on in Athens,
every Day 1 Greek and 1 immigrant is being killed by nationalist motives in Athens,
Greek Goverment is sleeping in Dreams, and ask for more help from EU,
but the last case of Police sending to hospital rioters, and the Burn down of a police station in heart of Athens, is another issue,

Finally Greek state decide to give 200 E and a pair of Shoes to every immigrant wants to go back to his country,

Greek are looking for work elsewhere, and primary in England, Arabia, while Greek Business moved to Bulgaria and Albania,
it is estimated that 300 000 are going to immigrate to Bulgaria next 5 years, making the last the strongest economy in Balkans.

the return to Drachmes and leave Euro is open and much talk about,
But also the case of a strong front against Troika and EU is open in Greece,
For first Time Central-right wing is against EU and Central-Left is supporting EU.
and Neo-Nazi are reaching 6% in Athens, above Communist parties
while in 1990 was 0,01%

either miracles, either unbelievable, either prophetic seems like Big changes are in EU, or ready to start.

fortune Hunters started to arrive, the Fortune hunt has started,
Houses that cost 300 000 E before 3-4 years are now sold for 150 000,
the high taxes make people to sell, cause Greeks started to stop buying goods from market,
paradise of smugglers cause taxes like 15% in food make people to buy illegal with out receipt from market to buy cheap,
with merchants start to say 10 E with receipt 8 E with out,
Greek province is still stable, and resist the crisis, but Athens seems a city deep in anarchy (no order)

and since Touristic era has started, nothing is mentioned,
especially in the provinces of Greeks that are known for Touristic numbers all is Quiet and nothing Happens,
In Fact they drop prizes so to be available to Greeks to make Tourism,
Food is down 10-20 % than last year, rooms 5-15%, only soft drinks are raised by 5% due to taxes,
seems like that biggest industry that remained in Greece, Tourism is not in crisis, but in fact raises, and becomes better.

Besides 1 of the IMF Troika man just arrested in NY for rape attempt in a hotel,
!!!!!!!
so the case of Greek crisis will be still open for long, since 62 years old Dominique Strauss-Kahn is in prison

president of France sarkozi is not afraid of him anymore.

prime minister wants Greece to stay in Eurozone,
while major antipoliteusis (opposition) is preparing for offensive economical policy , by drop taxes lower than 5% in production and market, and try to find laws to put taxes for every imported good especially from Germany.
but the main target, to punish and avoid corrupt politician is still a dream,
so many scandals from 1978 and after, and no one went prison,
the strange in the case is that all ministers or prime ministers from 1981, that control ministry of economy, all finished Harvard university,
Greek prime minister, and Greek major opposites in Fact were room-mates
!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[iapetoc]

But he was your best friend...

Germany don't want to pay for Greece, and DSK had always defended you in front of Merkel...

Are you serious?

yes the case of Germany and Finland against Greek depth is another story,

In Greece we know and we quess other reasons,
Greek crisis is because of some Bankers the lend money with x3 or x4 times over than others with bigger depth.

The case of Germany and the Deny was programmed to pass some change in public issues that was accepted with almost no trouble, some economical classes, that had much privileges
the problem was and is corrupted person in places, covered by political parties,
and seems like today only a small % is find, while the situation is the same,
the IMF gave support to Greece cause Greece followed the instructions,
and did not revolt as other places, why? I don't know, But seems Greek society is in Luck of dreamer and modern philosophers,

IMF only check and does not solve problem,
DE FACTO only in my area 13 small corporations just closed and 7 of them moved to Bulgaria (also EU) just because of the taxes in primary production, thhat was raised from 9, 15 to 13-15, 23-25 %
if you put taxes to primary production then you kick all foreign investments, and even your people stop producing but prefer to buy cheap imported,
since IMF gave instructions, as a strange reaction, Greek market started to buy from German cheap markets, !!!!! and import Turkish products and change label, !!!!!!
last winter in Greece that perfect oranges, we ate !!! Turkish, Brazilian Spanish and North African !!!!!
since IMF started to gave instruction all construction industry is stoped due a new law that raises taxes from x2 to x8 according the old,
well it is another thing to cut salaries and another to stop any production sending 000 000 to unemployment.

Indeed German will not want to pay for the Greeks had a reason, cause a German worked until 65 and some Greeks got retirement at 45 (military and police forces).
But that was solved from the Begin,
Greece change laws and is according majority of EU laws today,
But that did not help, still spreads are very high,
then what is Happening,
Simply Portugal was smart and avoid IMF,
But Greece was Dump, and accepted IMF,
(socialist with a Porche, that pays 150 000 for a house while normal Greeks pay 250-300 E rent)
well simply IMF manage to kick away the last industries that did not left in previous times, and manage to make problem from a crisis a Gordian tight, that will last until 2025-2030,
the case of portugal opened eyes in some Greeks and today people, are suspicious that something is Behind,
Angela of Germany told clear in past, SELL SOME OF YOUR ISLANDS,

and IMF instruction although Helps us with some money today, simply puts a bomb in our national lands in 2 ways,

1 is by selling Islands or monuments simply is like selling your heaviest industry,
2 is the case of international laws,
it is written in a thread about Cyprus,

simply Greek crisis started the exact time that Greeks and Cyprus demanded to expand sea-reef boarders to 12 miles than 6 that are today, a case that is Casus Beli for Turkish,

and the abandoned plan of South Stream and Nabuco that will transfer oil and Gas to italy and west Europe,

simply the East Mesogeios (mediteraneo) oil and gas, is in Target.

to make things more easy,
the trouble of today Greece is from 1823, (Cursed English Loan in Greek History since even today Greece pays the revolution)
but the heart of the point is the loan from Goldman-Sucks (or whatever)
that was a hidden loan even from that time Greek major opposite,
with that loan Greece manage to enter Eurozone, but after 10 years money wnted back,
it is the story of an Austrian Judge that tried to send an ex prime minister to trial,
Germans knew about Goldman-Sux (whatever) but they had profits from Greece that time, cause they sell submarines, opened market chains, sell trains and make railway electric, the famous Siemens case, and its Greek branch, But they stay Quiet, since they had profit,
But the case that Greek can drop EU values, made them angry,
and they started to find reasons,
some of them were right as I said above,
but soon they realize what is Behind economy spreads, and want a piece of the cake, and force Greek to sell the rights in Islands or Great monuments, but for what? to build hotels and Bundesbank invest in Tourism? or to set foot in future gas Drill?????
remember that Cyprus and Greece are in Casus Beli with Turkey for that reason Years now,
the famous Grey zones of east Mediteraneo.

find about Ιμια Imia-kardak case before when Greeks and Turks were with finger in trigger.

the theory of moving capitals that started at Cold-war, simply today still exist by some banks in order to take what they want,
capitals could be money, industrial machines, huge % of immigration that can absorb money from central-state plan, etc

well that is what is striking Greece today,

on the other hand, it is a change for Greeks to rearrange their political, constitutional etc believes,
since Greece entered EEC, Maastrich (whatever), Eurozone, Nato, etc with out 1 referendum, but as a new orismos (definition) that is widely spoken in Greece today,
the Parliament-al coup

 

[LeBrok]

1. Reform political system the way that only smartest and most honest people can be elected to government, and political parties. (Utopia?)

Or.

2. If Greece is lucky a smart dictator will take power, a la Lee Kuan Yew, and make Singapore out of Greece.

Or

3. Implement pro business education in high schools and colleges, shift mentality of Greeks to entrepreneurship form "everybody works for government", expect an improvement in a generation.


Honestly, I wish Greeks the best, but I don't see how they can implement viable changes to lift Greece economy. Unions won't let government reform economy, and politicians are too corrupt and short sighted to invoke trust in society. I think we'll see a bigger and bigger mess till someone, a dictator will take power and will try saving Greece his way. They will be lucky if it is a smart dictator. I would be at least a bit of an optimist if Greece had fairly normal and balanced economy. Unfortunately it's not the case.

If there are no drastic changes, and most likely there won't be, Greece will go deeper and deeper into dept, till no one will lend them money no more, next they will go bankrupt. Therefore it is better for Greece to go bankrupt, leave EU asap, like right now, and better for rest of Europe and other lenders. The only problem is if Greece can use properly this opportunity to get rid of crippling debt and start economic recovery. This will be a great opportunity, but it could be easily waisted by same government and unions.

I wish them the best, but this is my grim scenario for the future.
Greek government will be forced by the lenders, the economic crises, smart economists, to implement reforms. It will be crippled though by strong Unions, longs strikes, civil unrests, culture of entitlements, and other products of socialistic education. Under these circumstances reforms won't give the right results, governments will change quickly, more civil unrests, debt will be unmanageable. Lenders will refuse to give Greece more money, government quits, people will come to streets, big mess and bloodshed. Military will take charge of the country, and dictatorship will begin. It will take about 5 years to get to this point.
Can we say deja vu?

Greece situation can be improved if we have a strong economic recovery in Europe and tourists will show up in big numbers and full pockets. It might prolong the status quo till next recession in about 10 years.


Anyone dares a prediction? We'll come back in few years to check who was right.

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

LeBrok?

:65:

So your suggestion would be that instead of looking for ways out the economic crisis the Greeks should prepare for keeping their eyes on a 'benevolent dictator'?

Hell yeah, in order to avoid too much blood, what about a reality casting show? Don't worry about few smart people in the jury, Gadaffi, Mubarak & friends don't have much to do these days...

 

[iapetoc]

how about a EU dictator that has no army control, but money,

Greece had dictatorship until 1974,

how about modern dictatorship, an economical tyrrant,

well some changes should happened in Greece before years, and Greece should made some laws about retirement and public corporation according EU law,

But the rest?
could IMF play the role of a 'dictator' ?????

a non elected, but forced power, by economy, instead of an foreign army, or an inner army???
hmmmmmmmmmm
just wondering, why portugal deny it,
and press Greece so much????
why economical spreads get so high only for Greece and not some rest countries.
hmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[LeBrok]

LeBrok?

:65:

So your suggestion would be that instead of looking for ways out the economic crisis the Greeks should prepare for keeping their eyes on a 'benevolent dictator'?

QUOTE]

Lol, sounds like it all right.
I guess if I have a choice between almost nonfunctional democracy ( as in Greece now), and a smart dictator (like Lee Kuan Yew), I'd go with dictator.

There is no way the Greek government can implement radical economic reforms without willingness of citizens to sacrifice, without trusting government, without unified front behind ruling party.
So what is the way out?

Everybody agrees that we should have the smartest and most honest people to run our countries. Current political systems fail to achieve this goal. It needs to be changed.
A doctor have to finish 7 years of medical education and few years of practice, before we trust him with our health.
A president or ministers that runs a country of millions of citizens and businesses, billions or trillions dollars of budget, who can make you and your kids live well, or ruin your life, doesn't need to finish economic school. He doest even need to prove that he could run his family finances well. He just needs to be a good looking, good demagogue, have some charisma or whatever excites people. Most people make their choices based on their emotions and not on logic. Besides, the candidates are not the fist class either.
Now, this is very wrong, don't you think? I'd say, it is time for a change.

PS. Should we start a thread "How to fix democracy?"

 

[iapetoc]

LeBrok?

:65:

So your suggestion would be that instead of looking for ways out the economic crisis the Greeks should prepare for keeping their eyes on a 'benevolent dictator'?

QUOTE]

Lol, sounds like it all right.
I guess if I have a choice between almost nonfunctional democracy ( as in Greece now), and a smart dictator (like Lee Kuan Yew), I'd go with dictator.

There is no way the Greek government can implement radical economic reforms without willingness of citizens to sacrifice, without trusting government, without unified front behind ruling party.
So what is the way out?

Everybody agrees that we should have the smartest and most honest people to run our countries. Current political systems fail to achieve this goal. It needs to be changed.
A doctor have to finish 7 years of medical education and few years of practice, before we trust him with our health.
A president or ministers that runs a country of millions of citizens and businesses, billions or trillions dollars of budget, who can make you and your kids live well, or ruin your life, doesn't need to finish economic school. He doest even need to prove that he could run his family finances well. He just needs to be a good looking, good demagogue, have some charisma or whatever excites people. Most people make their choices based on their emotions and not on logic. Besides, the candidates are not the fist class either.
Now, this is very wrong, don't you think? I'd say, it is time for a change.

PS. Should we start a thread "How to fix democracy?"

you are right about that,
modern ministers and presidents are well trained actors.
they show you the carrot, but never the wipe.

 

[edao]

"The proposed reforms have sparked riots on the streets of Athens, nationwide strikes and rattled global markets. The French and German leaders are due to meet shortly in Berlin to discuss how to prevent Greece defaulting.French and German banks have the most exposure to Greek debt, holding, between them, 55% of Europe's total exposure.


Berlin and Paris have differed over the handling of the Greek crisis: Mrs Merkel has been insistent that banks and private creditors holding Greek debt should accept losses as part of the rescue plan, in the face of domestic opposition to German taxpayers underwriting more of Greece's debt burden.


France, meanwhile, is reluctant to accept those terms as three major French banks are heavily exposed to Greek debt and risk considerable losses if it is restructured.


Greece's debt was downgraded by Standard & Poor's ratings agency earlier this week, making it the lowest-rated of the countries it monitors."



Looks like Greece has reached the tipping point. :gun::danger::flame:
How long before default?
What will a Greek default mean for the economies of Europe?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13805964
http://www.euronews.net/2011/06/17/papandreou-battles-to-save-his-government/

 

[Cimmerianbloke]

Looks like the story is going to end badly after all, since the bail-out contributors want a serious austerity plan before handing the check to the Greeks. That means all the austerity measures taken so far were not enough. I feel sorry for the Greeks, as I feel sorry for the Spaniards and Portuguese who are next. 10 years ago, I was called a fascist ans a racist when I proned the 2-speed Europe some politicians proposed, that is a leading bunch of advanced EU members, with the poorest and less advanced left dragging behind. Now, no need to tell you I am having the last laugh, with only the best to come. When Spain defaults after the summer (the seasonal jobs will give some breathing space), it's going to be the end of the European dream, because believe me, the Germans are sick and fed up of being the EU wallet. Poor Europe, as her most talented people are leaving she allows unqualified mass immigration to stick its teeth and drain her welfare states dry. History will remember capitalism collapsed less than 2 generations after its victory over communism.
As for the Euro, most recent members and would-be members have been motivated by the fat checks and subsidies that come with the membership. I was appalled at the lack of balls of most member states when the Evil Kascinzky brothers vomited their anti-gay and anti-German rethoric, and at the boldness of the Czech president Klaus showing the EU his finger while pocketing the benefits with the other hand. I do not want that kind of behaviour tolerated in the name of common harmony.
We have to acknowledge the failure of the actual system and find solutions. Greece defaulting might be its chance to deregulate and becoming a fiscal paradise. She was in no position to be admitted in the first place anyway...

 

[iapetoc]

Looks like the story is going to end badly after all, since the bail-out contributors want a serious austerity plan before handing the check to the Greeks. That means all the austerity measures taken so far were not enough. I feel sorry for the Greeks, as I feel sorry for the Spaniards and Portuguese who are next. 10 years ago, I was called a fascist ans a racist when I proned the 2-speed Europe some politicians proposed, that is a leading bunch of advanced EU members, with the poorest and less advanced left dragging behind. Now, no need to tell you I am having the last laugh, with only the best to come. When Spain defaults after the summer (the seasonal jobs will give some breathing space), it's going to be the end of the European dream, because believe me, the Germans are sick and fed up of being the EU wallet. Poor Europe, as her most talented people are leaving she allows unqualified mass immigration to stick its teeth and drain her welfare states dry. History will remember capitalism collapsed less than 2 generations after its victory over communism.
As for the Euro, most recent members and would-be members have been motivated by the fat checks and subsidies that come with the membership. I was appalled at the lack of balls of most member states when the Evil Kascinzky brothers vomited their anti-gay and anti-German rethoric, and at the boldness of the Czech president Klaus showing the EU his finger while pocketing the benefits with the other hand. I do not want that kind of behaviour tolerated in the name of common harmony.
We have to acknowledge the failure of the actual system and find solutions. Greece defaulting might be its chance to deregulate and becoming a fiscal paradise. She was in no position to be admitted in the first place anyway...

correct since Greece enter Eu the economy is going to worse worse worse

Biggest income of Greece 1973-1978
1978 enters EU
after that only (-)
in fact I believe it is better if Greece leave the Euro and starts taxes in every imported Eu product
and start find another market for weapons

since enter enter IMF and troika the estimation of all run out,

Europeans and Imf are in hurry to give the dose so not the truth went out

another failure of IMF

I post numbers and how worked the IMF and troica in another similar thread