Immigration Should the US help Europe with the integration of Muslims ?

Maciamo

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I was reading an article from the Economist (Tales from Eurabia) about the relations between the USA, Europe and the Arabo-Muslim world. They were saying that Americans had an increasingly strong new image of Europe called ?gEurabia?h, representing "an ever-growing Muslim Europe-within-Europe?\poor, unassimilated and hostile to the United States".

This is unfortunately true. Well, the Muslim community in Europe has grown fastest between the late 50's and late 70's, but problems are only growing stronger with generations of Muslims born in Europe, and still not integrated. One of the worst consequence of this poor integration of Muslims in Europe was certainly the 9/11 attack, in which Muslims based in Europe played a major role. This was followed by the Madrid and London terrorist attacks, the murder of a Dutch film maker - all presumably committed by Europe-born Muslims. More recently, thousands of teenage France-born Muslims torched thousands of cars throughout France for weeks.

Yet, British or Spanish Muslims are supposedly better integrated than French, Belgian and Dutch ones. Personally, living and travelling in various European countries, I have never felt so much tensions between the Muslims and non-Muslims than in Belgian cities (esp. Brussels and Antwerp). No wonder that the extreme-right and anti-Islamic Vlaams Belang party is now surveyed to be the most popular party in Flanders, with 27% of public support (sources), something unique in Europe.

It is in the USA's best interest to help Europe deal with its uncontrolled rise of Islamic violence and terrorism. Where I disagree with the Economist is that Europe could copy the melting-pot model of the US. Europe wasn't built on immigration, and each country has its own distinct culture, customs and tolerance. Often such cultural differences exist within a same country. In tiny Belgium, extreme-right parties are rife in Flanders, but not nearly as much in Wallonia. It is a much more complex situation than in the US. One thing that does not really differ across Europe is the Muslim's lack of integration and lack of understanding toward European culture and society, as the Mohammed cartoons protests showed.

What can be done ?
 
I don't see how the US can help Europe in this area. For one, the US hasn't been a good examaple, because of the violence directed towards muslims after 9-11. Even though there's been efforts made to help Americans understand what Islam is about. I'm still trying to figure out why there's such tension with muslims in some European nations. I haven't seen that kind of tension here in the US. Even with incidents of violence directed towards muslims. Of course, I could be wrong about this. I don't know the situation in Europe, but have Europeans made an effort to try to understand Islam? Personally, I think that's part of the problem. From your posts Maciamo, it seems that muslims aren't doing their part to integrate, but what's being done to help people in Belgium better understand Islam? Do muslims feel welcomed in Belgian society? I think that could be a reason why they won't integrate too quickly, perhaps the muslims may feel some form of hostility.
 
That depends on whether the U.S has less Muslim immigrant problems than Europe. I know quite a bit about the Chinese immigrants in the US because I talk to a lot of ABCs and I have relatives there, but not so much about the relationship of Muslim immigrants and the host country, The U.S. Maybe I will ask my uncle who lives in California what he thinks of the issue?c:?
 
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I'm not certain what the US could do in this case or even if we are willling to get involved.
 
Hmmm?c.

Sorry, but my initial reaction is, on balance, ?gWhy should they??h

I always find it quite curious – the world?fs attitude to the United States, that is.

The U.S. is (perhaps questionably, today) the most powerful nation on Earth, and indisputably the most influential ?c be that influence good or bad (also questionable). Consequently it always figures ?gstage, front, center?h in foreign affairs, whether it likes it or not. And because of its involvement in so many aspects of the world?fs affairs – this is not unreasonably so. Great Britain was undoubtedly in a similar position at the turn of the last century. (Neither power was, or is, perfect in their conduct).

However, if this makes it reasonable or logical to choose to think that this makes the United States accountable for, responsible for, or even have an obligation to become involved in every problem in today?fs asinine world – then a falsehood exists in the mind of any individual or nation that would feel so inclined.

I believe that it was an American who came up with the concept of ?gCatch 22?h – (?gDamned if you do – and damned if you don?ft ?c.?h).

One can see why.

Even on this forum, the United States is criticized for many of its actions, attitudes and influences. Even on this forum, some ?gEurocentric?h posters have (by implication at least) extolled the ?gsuperiority?h of Europe (by virtue of its history, cultural diversity, cuisine etc. etc. etc) over other parts of the world (particularly, one could suspect – the arch-rival, the ?grenegade?h escaped colony of America).

But (not for the first time ?c) when ?gthe chips are down?h, and a problem is to be resolved ?c who is suddenly stared at, glared at ?c and asked ?gto help?h?

The United States!

And Europe is not the only part of the world that is guilty of this ?gcop-out?h.

As most of you are aware, I am not an American. I only live a few miles/kilometers from the US, but I am not American. I am a European. I still have British citizenship, and I travel on a EEC passport. (Y?fknow ?c one of the little red ones ?c!) I do not always agree with US policy; I do not like the present administration, and am quite open in declaring that Canada has several issues itself with the US that are quite vexing to some of us that live here. That?fs life!

But I do have more than a nodding acquaintance with the United States and its people and notwithstanding the above paragraph, I appreciate what they do contribute to the world, warts and all. I also like Americans as a people and think that it?fs slightly unfair to ask of them solutions to problems that should be soluble to the individuals or nations directly involved.

If the European community is so damned effective, so potentially powerful, and so influential – with thousands of years of experience at this sort of thing – why can?ft it resolve this little problem on its own?

My apologies at sounding so harsh – but that is truly how I feel.

?W????
 
Sensuikan San said:
Hmmm?c.
Sorry, but my initial reaction is, on balance, ?gWhy should they??h
I always find it quite curious – the world?fs attitude to the United States, that is.
....
But (not for the first time ?c) when ?gthe chips are down?h, and a problem is to be resolved ?c who is suddenly stared at, glared at ?c and asked ?gto help?h?
The United States!
...
If the European community is so damned effective, so potentially powerful, and so influential – with thousands of years of experience at this sort of thing – why can?ft it resolve this little problem on its own?
My apologies at sounding so harsh – but that is truly how I feel.

First of all, the US should care because European Muslims hate the US, committed 9/11 and will attack the US (and Europe) again. This is a fight of Western civilisation against Islam. That's why the US should feel concerned; not because they are a superpower or have a better model of society for Muslim immigrants.

So this thread title should really have been : "What can the Western world do to convince Muslims to adopt the shared Western values and stop seeing the West as the ennemy ?"

If Americans do believe that the failed integration of Europe's Muslims (esp. Arabs) is caused by a deficient system, then why not welcome a share of Europe's Muslims to the US and see if things get better ? :evil:
 
Maciamo said:
First of all, the US should care because European Muslims hate the US, committed 9/11 and will attack the US (and Europe) again. This is a fight of Western civilisation against Islam. That's why the US should feel concerned; not because they are a superpower or have a better model of society for Muslim immigrants.
So this thread title should really have been : "What can the Western world do to convince Muslims to adopt the shared Western values and stop seeing the West as the ennemy ?"
If Americans do believe that the failed integration of Europe's Muslims (esp. Arabs) is caused by a deficient system, then why not welcome a share of Europe's Muslims to the US and see if things get better ? :evil:
The significant difference is that most european nations rely back on thousands of years of cultural history, yet they have been flexible enough to accept other "lifestyles" but that are currently hitting back and threatening our own. The US has no such meter to measure up to so there anything is pretty much a go as long as everyone prays the same god... the $$$. I think America disguises better it's racial conflict because the american standards that people are required to live up are very materialistic and easily achievable, therefore there is a different looking glass that examines racial relations, a looking glass tainted by a green filter ;)

So the US can really teach nothing to Europe and vice versa because they live completely different realities that do not allow for a suggestion to solve the other's predicament.
 
Maciamo said:
First of all, the US should care because European Muslims hate the US, committed 9/11 and will attack the US (and Europe) again. This is a fight of Western civilisation against Islam. That's why the US should feel concerned; not because they are a superpower or have a better model of society for Muslim immigrants.
So this thread title should really have been : "What can the Western world do to convince Muslims to adopt the shared Western values and stop seeing the West as the ennemy ?"

An extremely good point, and a totally valid question. Perhaps we should propose it as an additional thread? Do you want to do it, or should I "fire it up"?

Maciamo said:
If Americans do believe that the failed integration of Europe's Muslims (esp. Arabs) is caused by a deficient system, then why not welcome a share of Europe's Muslims to the US and see if things get better ? :evil:

Why not? I don't think "our" (American/Canadian) Muslims are any different to yours. They all come from the same place!

Duo said:
..... So the US can really teach nothing to Europe and vice versa because they live completely different realities that do not allow for a suggestion to solve the other's predicament.

There you go! Precisely my point! And quite right, too!

?W????
 
It is not that we don't care about Europe's problem's, especially when they may directly affect US concerns in the future. It is just that the US holds absolutely no special sway in the Muslim world. I'm not certain given the present circumstances and global political climate that any help from the US isn't more of a liability then an asset.
 
Sensuikan San said:
An extremely good point, and a totally valid question. Perhaps we should propose it as an additional thread? Do you want to do it, or should I "fire it up"?

Well, that was the intended purpose of this thread since the beginning.:eek:kashii:

Why not? I don't think "our" (American/Canadian) Muslims are any different to yours. They all come from the same place!

Do they ? Do Muslims in Canada and the US all come from Morocco and Algeria ? I thought they were more from the Middle East, Black Africa (e.g. Nigeria), Pakistan or even Indonesia... According to the Economist, in the USA most of the Muslims are Black, and most of the Arabs are Christians. That's the exact opposite of the situation in France and the Benelux.
 
This article of the Economist has lots of good points and an excellent summary of the situation : Islam, America and Europe : Look out, Europe, they say

It says among others that the US Muslim population is estimated between 3 and 7 million (about 1.7% of the total population) and is mostly made of fairly well-educated and "upwardly mobile" immigrants of Iranian, South Asian origin and Black converts with no ties with the rest of the Muslim world. France's Muslim population is estimated at 5 to 6 million (probably more than the US), or about 9% of the population. An approximate 5.6% of the Dutch population is Muslim, while it is 3.9% in Germany, 2.8% in Britain and 2.3% in Canada.

One interesting point made by the Economist is that Europe's most radical Muslims consider that "their host countries' gravest sin lies in their alignment with America", especially since the election of G.W. Bush. This is why the US has little to teach Europe about how to deal with Muslims. It could be argued that terrorist attacks and violences in Europe in the last few years have been caused by Europe's close ties with the USA and some European countries' support of the Bush-led invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.

So Europe and the US are two good reasons to consult each others regarding Europe's Muslims. On the one hand, Europe's Muslims cause problems because of America. But on the other hand, America's worst fears of terrorist attacks mostly come from Europe's Muslims...

The irony is that poll show that Americans have a more positive image of Islam and Western-Muslim relations than Europeans.
 
That would seem to fit my version of reality. We should have consulted with Europe and reached at least a nominal consensus before taking actions in Iraq and Afganistan. It is the US that should be asking Europe for advice. I don't think we are quite ahead of the curve yet. It is possible that our policies are making things worse for all of you.
 
Maciamo said:
Do they ? Do Muslims in Canada and the US all come from Morocco and Algeria ? I thought they were more from the Middle East, Black Africa (e.g. Nigeria), Pakistan or even Indonesia... According to the Economist, in the USA most of the Muslims are Black, and most of the Arabs are Christians. That's the exact opposite of the situation in France and the Benelux.

Hmmm! Extremely good question. Hadn't thought about that one before.
No, most that I am aware of seem to come from Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Jordan and Palestine. Haven't seen too many from the North African countries, except a few Egyptians, in Toronto. And, naturally, here on the West Coast we see many from Indonesia.

I tend to not truly count American "Black Muslims" as being quite the same. I truly don't think they view Islam in quite the same way that people from the Middle East do.

NOW ... am I in lottsa trouble!

?W????
 
Sensuikan San said:
Hmmm! Extremely good question. Hadn't thought about that one before.
No, most that I am aware of seem to come from Iraq, Iran, Pakistan, Jordan and Palestine. Haven't seen too many from the North African countries, except a few Egyptians, in Toronto. And, naturally, here on the West Coast we see many from Indonesia.
I tend to not truly count American "Black Muslims" as being quite the same. I truly don't think they view Islam in quite the same way that people from the Middle East do.
NOW ... am I in lottsa trouble!
?W????

I would have to agree with comment regarding "Black Muslims", The Nation of Islam isn't really the same. I also don't believe they view Islam the same way.
 
Sensuikan San said:
Hmmm?c.
Even on this forum, the United States is criticized for many of its actions, attitudes and influences. Even on this forum, some ?gEurocentric?h posters have (by implication at least) extolled the ?gsuperiority?h of Europe (by virtue of its history, cultural diversity, cuisine etc. etc. etc) over other parts of the world (particularly, one could suspect – the arch-rival, the ?grenegade?h escaped colony of America).
?W????

Um I think people in this forum are rather decent, even if we don't agree with each other we are not extremely rude to each other. That's one of the reasons I come here.

There are many American forums who bashed others much more unmannerly
especially against French and other people they don't like; there is even a ****french .com on the internet.
 
America has absolutely no intention to strengthen Europe´s position in any way. That's why they push for Turkey to join the EU. A massive muslim country joining the EU would bring the institutions to a halt and would dilute the poor homogeinity this Union has, clearing the path of a massive economic rival.
On another hand, they haven´t done such a good job on their own land as 9/11 and the regular foiling of attacks on american soil prove. On a private note, I think it is the duty of the guest to adapt to his/her new environment. It is, though, the government´s responsabilities to select adequate candidates for immigration. The current situation shows us that some groups have very little chances to adequately integrate.
 
America's relationship with the Muslim world has been deeply impacted by the Cold War. Because Israel offered a "Westernized" democratic bastion agaisnt Soviet gambits into the Middle and Near East, the Oil Fields so necessary for the economy, the US has been drawn into a relationship with the Bogeyman of Modern Islam.
 

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