Politics Should Turkey Join The EU?

In my opinion Turkey is not European, culturally, geographically and, to a significant extent, ethnically. I also believe that Cyprus should not have been given membership. I understand there are political issues involved for both countries but I just can't see either as part of the E. U. For me Europe ends where Greece's borders end.
 
For me Europe ends where Greece's borders end.


We grew up knowing that the southeast borders of Europe are where Greece's borders with Turkey are and with all the fuzz about Turkey joining EU and Europe it feels a bit weird when Turkey appears in everything related to Europe.
 
We grew up knowing that the southeast borders of Europe are where Greece's borders with Turkey are and with all the fuzz about Turkey joining EU and Europe it feels a bit weird when Turkey appears in everything related to Europe.

I agree. The mere concept of Turkey as European feels awfully "forced".
 
... The mere concept of Turkey as European feels awfully "forced".

Come on, guys. The definition of Europe, Asia and all the rest is a mere plotted line on a map, drawn up long ago. It is completely useless but for the fact that map-makers thought the world had too little lines across it and after having decided the east-west frontier between Europe and Asia had to find something (anything) to use as referrence point in laying out the north-south frontier.

Today, no-one is courageous enough to suggest redrawing that line and so here we sit argueing over abstract "rules of thumb" and the collapse of pseudo-indignant identities which, they themselves, are products of historical progression and change.
 
The USA is over twice bigger than the EU, geographically. The gap between the rich and the poor is actually higher in the US than between say a poor Romanian and a rich northern European. The US has many times more billionaires than the EU, and many times more people living in precarious conditions, without health insurance, in trailer parks. Yet few people would argue that the USA are too big and should be split.

You're right about their disparities. But I lived in the States for over ten years. In my day, someone from Georgia was seen a a real novelty to those of us in California. But - same language; national government; customs; cultural identity; education structure/curriculum, entertainment values; legal framework etc.

The size is an issue, but you can't compare the two models, given the EU's massive disparity in cultural, linguistic, religious, economic, historic and legal frameworks, education systems, etc. It's like comparing apples with pears.

I used to be very pro-EU on an intellectual level, but in practice, the disparities make the concept completely impractical and counter-intuitive.

Ask the average guy in the street - are you European first and foremost? I guarantee most would say "no". It's a political and economic construct, not social. Without the social element, it's like building a castle on sand.
 
..... The size is an issue, but you can't compare the two models, given the EU's massive disparity in cultural, linguistic, religious, economic, historic and legal frameworks, education systems, etc. It's like comparing apples with pears.
.....
Precisely.
 
The E.U. has expanded much too fast. Some countries should never have been admitted...
 
The E.U. has expanded much too fast. Some countries should never have been admitted...
Yes. There are 2 countries in particular ..... I cannot for the life of me understand why they´ve been admitted. Who in hell makes these decisions? :annoyed:
 
You're right about their disparities. But I lived in the States for over ten years. In my day, someone from Georgia was seen a a real novelty to those of us in California. But - same language; national government; customs; cultural identity; education structure/curriculum, entertainment values; legal framework etc.

The EU has a government with laws applying in all member states and a European court of justice with power to overrule member-state courts. The EU has harmonised the education system is all member states, so that diploma and degrees are valid everywhere. Exchange programmes (like Erasmus) exist between all EU universities and funded by the EU. There really isn't much difference between the USA and the EU, except than US states are less autonomous.

The size is an issue, but you can't compare the two models, given the EU's massive disparity in cultural, linguistic, religious, economic, historic and legal frameworks, education systems, etc. It's like comparing apples with pears.

Religious disparity ? The US has much more religious disparity. The Bible Belt is strongly (some might say fundamentalist) Christian but mostly Protestant, New Mexico is mostly Catholic, and places like New York and California are a melting pot of every world religion, but are not very religious overall.

Economic disparities are bigger within the USA than the EU, although the gap is mostly social rather than geographic.

Europe has one common history, just like the USA. British history differs from Italian history just like Texan history differs from Massachusetts history.

I agree that European education systems were quite different 20 years ago. But that's not the case anymore since the EU introduced a common minimum curriculum (example). For universities this was achieved through the Bologna process.

Ask the average guy in the street - are you European first and foremost? I guarantee most would say "no". It's a political and economic construct, not social. Without the social element, it's like building a castle on sand.

That may be true in the UK, but not everywhere. Let's not forget that the UK is by far the most eurosceptic country. Ask Belgians whether they feel themselves as European as Belgian, and most would say yes (there has been polls).
 
Greeks strongly identify as Europeans.

I keep reading the news about the polls in UK and I see that many people there want their country to leave the EU.
 
Let's not forget that the UK is by far the most eurosceptic country. Ask Belgians whether they feel themselves as European as Belgian, and most would say yes (there has been polls).

That's for sure, but Norway (albeit a non-member) is even more Euro-sceptic! I think in principle, the EU is a great concept. I am 100% certain (having spent my whole career in management and business) that in an organisational sense, it is unaccountable, bloated and massively bureaucratic. That's probably a sound reason to engage with the process and help get it changed, rather than turning away from it!!

I find it odd for example, how I have a number of Euro MEPs in my constituency. Who can I nail down as accountable? Which one? All?

In a global economy, I think the EU is our best refuge against the mega economies (e.g. USA, China).

I honestly think though, there is much scope for reform. Or am I being a typical Anglo Saxon?! :unsure:
 
In my opinion it shouldn't. In fact I think it should give up some of its European, such as Istanbul and the lands West of it. Most of its land is in the Middle East and it would be better if they were to join the Middle Eastern or West Asian Union if such a union takes place. I don't even think it should be a candidate.

What do you think?

Well your argument suggests that the EU is a geographical entity, which is paradoxical as it is. First of all EU is not just a land mass but a union formed by "ideas" like equality, freedom, human rights and many others as stated in the EU constitution.

But let us assume that EU is a geographical union:

1.Where does it start and where does it end? If it ends in Thrace and Istanbul, why Cyprus is in the EU? Cyprus is located in the easten meditterranean region. It's a couple hundred miles away from Syria, Israel, Lebanon and Egypt. So what makes Cyprus in Europe? And what doesn't make Turquie in Europe while 70% of her land mass is more westward than Cyprus is?

2.Again according to your suggestion, UK, Ireland and Iceland are not in the European continent.

3.The idea of a unified Europe has its basis in Ancient Greek and Roman Empire which includes Anatolia, Middle-East and North Africa. Isn't Roman Empire european enough?

4.Another attempt to unify Europe was Ottoman Empire (Which is the descendant of Roman and Byzantine Empires) Her 2 capitals (Adrianopolis and Constantinopolis) were in Europe and her borders started from Wien and included today's Hungary, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Romania,Ukraine, Bulgaria, Kosovo, Poland (as an ally), Greece, Makedonia and Albania most of which are EU countries.

5.You stated that the majority of Turquie's lands are in Asia. That's not entirely true. Because Anatolia is a peninsula and it forms a bridge that connects Europe to Asia.

6.Turquie's lands in Europe is much larger than many countries in Europe.

Blah blah blah...

But of course we all know that geographical location has nothing to do with the common tendency of rejecting Turquie's admission to EU.
For all I know, if Turquie was located in Switzerland it would still be rejected by the average people in the EU.

Because the real cause of rejection lies beneath the misbelief that "Turks are the others" This idea was planted by the Roman Church after the collapse of the Roman Empire, to unify the european kingdoms under the Church's rule. Infact, Turks were not the enemy of Christianity. Even the Mehmet the conqueror of Istanbul was a son of an Orthodox Queen of ours as well as almost all other Ottoman sultans. And yes Turks commited acts of violence not only against christians but also muslims. Yet it was nothing when compared to secterian violence commited by european christians to other christians. This is basic European History 101.

The church used this propaganda to recruit ordinary farmers as soldiers to fight against "the enemies of God". So it was all political. Typical use of religion to decieve people.

But today that status quo has changed. Today's Turquie is the ally of EU and, her soldiers fighted side by side with Western soldiers in Korea, Balkans, Afghanistan, Somalia etc. Also Turquie fights Islamic fundamentalists everywhere in the globe efficiently. And she is doing that not because of political engagements (like Pakistan) but because she is a secular, constitutional, democratic republic.

Also, unlike Germany, japan and Iraq, Turquie has chosen the path of democracy by herself with a revolution and not pressed or forced to do so. Women rights were given in 1920's, long before the U.S. and many european countries.

Also I'm not naive and I know that my country has a lot of democratic issues to be resolved such as the Kurdish identity and reinforcing civil society. Call me an optimist, but I believe that such issues will be resolved in a couple of years. Never forget: This nation has changed its alphabet, revolutionized the society, wiped out the Sharia, found the democratic republic in less than 10 years at the begining of the last century. And I myself am the product of that revolution. I studied in Turkish state schools where I learned ancient Greek philosophy, Magna Carta, tunes of Bach, English, Spanish and other languages and I grew up in the streets of Istanbul. I represent the average Turkish citizen (with a little more effort:)

And I'm asking to my fellow european friends: Do you prefer to sustain the hostility of the medieval times, pushing Turquie away from Europe to Islam world and create an anthagonist and a powerful, potential threat? or Do you prefer to encourage a more democratic country which will strenghten the EU and show the world that EU is not a christian club or a bunch of pious nationalists?

Please answer..


Kivanch K


Musician

Istanbul, TR
 
I would in general be in favour of Turkey joining the EU I think the advantages out weigh any disadvantages, the EU has been a stabilising force encouraging prosperity, democracy and the rights of individuals and bringing a large Muslim country into the fold could act as a be-con to Muslims in other countries who might be tired of the status quo in their own homelands.
As an Irish man I could never make the argument that Turkey is to poor to be considered for membership but my one main concern is the relative instability between the secular and religious forces at play. Maybe its just the western media slant but it does appear to be a rolling back of secular independence in government and a indirect treat to Turkeys continued democracy.
 
i believe europe dont want turkey because europe is not democratic enough..
EU is just a new name of holy crusade in this years.

thats why if they accept turkey there will be no more holy crusade;
it will became open for every religion every people, so the real democracy will come:)

i dont believe any other needles reasons that eu tells turkey.
turkey is 10times better then so many countrys in EU.

EU can accept turkey or not;
its realy not important for me,because i know we are in europe since 1453,and no one can chance this...
 
i believe europe dont want turkey because europe is not democratic enough..
EU is just a new name of holy crusade in this years.

This is because you think of Europe as Christian. Only lower class, low intelligence, elderly or seriously indoctrinated people are Christian nowadays.

thats why if they accept turkey there will be no more holy crusade;
it will became open for every religion every people, so the real democracy will come:)

You imagine the future as a world of religions. I hope it will be a world of reason instead. Religion is always worse than reason. It leads to wars, it keeps people ignorant, it impedes scientific an social progress, and it make people live with very outdated moral and lifestyle principles.

The future of Europe is not freedom of religion but freedom from religion !

The only reason I think Turkey could possibly join the EU is because it is a secular state and many Western Turks aren't very religious. But it is people like you who make me hesitant about letting Turkey entering the EU.
 
This is because you think of Europe as Christian. Only lower class, low intelligence, elderly or seriously indoctrinated people are Christian nowadays.



You imagine the future as a world of religions. I hope it will be a world of reason instead. Religion is always worse than reason. It leads to wars, it keeps people ignorant, it impedes scientific an social progress, and it make people live with very outdated moral and lifestyle principles.

The future of Europe is not freedom of religion but freedom from religion !

The only reason I think Turkey could possibly join the EU is because it is a secular state and many Western Turks aren't very religious. But it is people like you who make me hesitant about letting Turkey entering the EU.


Too right, Maciamo ... (y)
 
i believe europe dont want turkey because europe is not democratic enough..
EU is just a new name of holy crusade in this years.

thats why if they accept turkey there will be no more holy crusade;
it will became open for every religion every people, so the real democracy will come:)

i dont believe any other needles reasons that eu tells turkey.
turkey is 10times better then so many countrys in EU.

EU can accept turkey or not;
its realy not important for me,because i know we are in europe since 1453,and no one can chance this...

Your perspective is all wrong on this... Turkey has a VERY long way to go on many fronts.

Only a small sliver of Turkey can be considered as forming part of Europe.
 
You imagine the future as a world of religions. I hope it will be a world of reason instead. Religion is always worse than reason. It leads to wars, it keeps people ignorant, it impedes scientific an social progress, and it make people live with very outdated moral and lifestyle principles.

The future of Europe is not freedom of religion but freedom from religion !

The only reason I think Turkey could possibly join the EU is because it is a secular state and many Western Turks aren't very religious. But it is people like you who make me hesitant about letting Turkey entering the EU.

Hear, hear. Zealous Christians are as worrying as zealous Muslims. Religion divides. Always has and always will. Since the Bush era, we have been sliding backwards towards a Crusades mentality in the polarisation of politics/religion. Both sides are barking mad.

Instead of asking why Turkey should be admitted to the European Union, I would ask why it should? Where is the compelling social or economic reason?

As posted earlier, I feel strongly that although the EU has much in its favour logically and rationally, there is much work to be done to make the existing membership/structures more accountable to the people and effective, organisationally. No more expansion before that happens, is my vote.
 
at first i am a turk who is living intanbul(west enough:p) and i am Muslim ..

the thing is i am trying to tell. eu peoples always saying that muslim turkey,turkey is muslim ,religious.... ,

everyone can believe to anything its not my problem i have respect for all of them.

and after hearing from most of eu people that kind a we dont want turkey because most of is muslim.

because many people know muslims wrong and it makes them to think wrong.
they are not even thinking how it can be good or bad.
most of people thing just says things like we dont want muslims in europe.
they know wrong and they fear.. what they dont know
 
at first i am a turk who is living intanbul(west enough:p) and i am Muslim ..

the thing is i am trying to tell. eu peoples always saying that muslim turkey,turkey is muslim ,religious.... ,

everyone can believe to anything its not my problem i have respect for all of them.

and after hearing from most of eu people that kind a we dont want turkey because most of is muslim.

because many people know muslims wrong and it makes them to think wrong.
they are not even thinking how it can be good or bad.
most of people thing just says things like we dont want muslims in europe.
they know wrong and they fear.. what they dont know


There are a few aspects to that. Firstly, that people object because Turkey is Muslim. That is probably true for many, but what people see of Islam in world affairs cannot be considered acceptable, especially to those who hold European values. See the contradiction in values? We do.

Secondly, most Europeans do not value Turkey's approach to democracy and civil rights. I read a poll recently about Turkish attitudes to everyday issues, and it was very concerning - not to the Turks obviously, but to those of us who hold European values dear. (Perhaps someone can assist in finding the survey on the web? It illustrates my point in this paragraph clearly.)

I am not a Christian. My objections are based on the differences in values. Turks are welcome to their views. So are Europeans.
 

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