Shulaveri and Haji Firuz

[Olympus Mons]

[FONT=&quot]To keep drumming the Shulaveri at a time when we are so close…

I figure Haji Firuz R1b Z2103 will turn up one of these days as dated and confirmed. I immediately noted when it came out that the two places where WINE production have been attested has been precisely in Shulaveri and Haji Firuz. Re reading a couple papers got some other references that connect he two places:
About a very unique bone carving from Shulaveri…

“In addition,although comparable specimens have not been excavated from Hacı Elamxanlı Tepe, we should mention the puzzling bone objects with a series of incised striations often recovered at Shomutepe-Shulaveri settlements including Göytepe (Guliyev and Nishiaki 2012: 76). Similar objects have been repeatedly recovered at early Pottery Neolithic sites in northern Mesopotamia (e.g., Sabi Abyad, Syria [Spoor and Collet 1996: 473] and Haji Firuz, Iran [Voigt 1983: 210–12]), where they have been described as “counters” or “grooved bones.””
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And the fact that Shulaveri didn’t got Obsidian from Eastern Anatolia, but from these Northern Iran places.

However, it is also important to recognize that sources southeast of Sevan Lake, Armenia, were continuously exploited by communities in the Lake Urmia region of northwest Iran, from the Pottery Neolithic period on (Chataigner et al 2010: 386; Niknami, Amirkhiz, and Glascock 2010; Chataigner and Gratuze 2013: 17) Significantly, these communities procured obsidian from sources in the Lake Van region as well (Voigt 1983; Chataigner et al 2010: 386–87), thus bridging the two separate obsidian distribution provinces We do not claim that elements of the Shomutepe- Shulaveri culture were introduced by communities of the Lake Urmia region It is likely that future research would reveal more possible links With the present state of our knowledge, we suggest that Shomutepe-Shulaveri culture emerged in the context of cultural contacts with other regions, which, although sparse, cannot be ignored


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[jpz79]

This is directly from the author of the study, who recently (2017) discovered the wine residual in Shulaveri:

[FONT=&quot]Hajji Firuz is only approximately 500 km from Shulaveri and Gadachrili, and even closer to sites in Armenia and Azerbaijan. These sites also lie within the zone of the wild grape, as does the mountainous region of northern Mesopotamia and, farther afield, the Taurus Mountains of eastern Anatolia. Now that wine jars from as early as ca. 6,000 BC have been confirmed for Gadachrili and Shulaveri, preceding the Hajji Firuz jars by half a millennium, the question might be asked which region has priority in the discovery and dissemination of the “wine culture” and the domesticated grape. It is impossible to assign priority to any of these regions at this stage in the investigation; much more excavation and the collection of wild grapevines for DNA analysis are needed.

Mcgovern, Patrick. Early Neolithic wine of Georgia. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Nov 2017, 114 (48) E10309-E10318; DOI:10.1073/pnas.1714728114

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So assigning priority to wine-making based on the extremely limited sampling across a difference of a 300 miles/500km (of a largely uncovered Iranian plateau) is entirely pointless and silly. The same with the evolution of writing which was estimated (by dating) to be only 100 years different between Proto-Elamite 3100bc, and the earliest Sumerian (3200bc). It's seems a habit of anti-Iranists who assign chronological priority to areas North and West of the Zagros.


But I am in agreement with you that PIE/IE formed south of the Caucaus region.

 

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

The problem with Hajji Firuz is that it would push YFull's estimates back by up to 2000 years, and was in a paper already littered with loads of mistakes. I reckon SS is similar to Maykop in Y DNA.

 

[irdue]

I dont thinl that is formed in caucaus