Tabaccus Maximus
Tabaccus Maximus
- Messages
- 169
- Reaction score
- 22
- Points
- 0
- Ethnic group
- Galo-Germanic Atlantic Fringe
- Y-DNA haplogroup
- R1b - SRY 2627
- mtDNA haplogroup
- H1a
Solutrean hypothesis: Native American Clovis Culture & NW Europe: (ydna Q, mtdna X2)
I am posting this here because I couldn't find the original post on mtdna haplogroup X2 and its presence, mostly limited to Western Europe and the Americas. Then I found a discussion on Ydna haplogroup Q titled "How did Y-DNA haplogroup Q enter Scandinavia?" and its presence in the North Atlantic Fringe. So I decided to cut and paste here and make comments on both the paternal and maternal haplogroups together since they seem to be linked...
(An article I read in Science daily rekindled interest in this topic - autosomal similarilites in Euros and Indians - I can't link so find it yourself.)
What I find interesting is that there have been a number of mostly "non-mainstream" theories in various disciplines that link a component of early Native American culture with something specifically coming out of the Middle Upper Paleolithic in Europe.
That's "specifically and directly" from Europe, not a thousad year Siberian trek across the straits of Alaska.
So here's a bunch of dots that seem to reasonable to connect:
1) The Solutrean hypothesis shows a very similar technology at about the same time as Clovis in the Atlantic Fringe. The geographic distribution of Clovis seems to overlay points 2, 3,4 below.
2) X2 is distributed throughout the Americas where its highest frequency overlays the Clovis culture sites. It's negligble spread in South America is probably the result of gene flow assuming X entered the Americas at a later date from the other four Native American mtdna haplogroups. Any form of X shows Eastern Siberia and East Asia were the other other Native American founding haplogroups are located in number and diversity . If it was part of the founding population of America along with A,B,C and D, why is it's distribution and diversity so far west? The Altay people are sometimes used as a relict population in West Siberia due to the presence of all four Haplogroups, but that combination can be explaned in other ways and migrations in the historical period.
3) Frequency of X2 peaks in North America dropping off sharply beyond Central America which suggests to me that it was not part of the originial founding population. Intrestingly, it peaks in areas where Q-242 peaks, and again in geographic areas where the Na-Dene family of languages are spoken, again limited to North America. American Q also has subclades that are too young to have come across the Beringia Crossing which no one seems to have an explanation for. If we open the door by stating that the Indian genome is not the result of a single founding across the bearing strait, then there is not reason to be supremely sure that X or Q at all was there day one as well and didn't migrate in a different way.
4) The most interesting bit is the extinction timeline of the mammoth. You will see that the extinction begins in Europe with (possibly) Solturean technology (or methods) and spreads westwardly through the Americas. Finally, the last mammoths die out in Siberia and a few islands. Is it possible that Q-M242 entered Asia via the Americas and further back from Europe rather than the other way around.
To quote wiki on the decline of the mammoths: "The spread of advanced human hunters through northern Eurasia and the Americas around the time of the extinctions was a new development, and thus might have contributed significantly" (What technology? Large bifacial, fluted spear points?)
5) Again with the distribution of Q, is it not possible that it's presence in Eastern Siberia is the result of a declining mammoth population and hunters tracking Westward, not Eastward following dying herds?
6) Are the Dene languages and Caucasian languages remnants of a race of mammoth hunters?
I am posting this here because I couldn't find the original post on mtdna haplogroup X2 and its presence, mostly limited to Western Europe and the Americas. Then I found a discussion on Ydna haplogroup Q titled "How did Y-DNA haplogroup Q enter Scandinavia?" and its presence in the North Atlantic Fringe. So I decided to cut and paste here and make comments on both the paternal and maternal haplogroups together since they seem to be linked...
(An article I read in Science daily rekindled interest in this topic - autosomal similarilites in Euros and Indians - I can't link so find it yourself.)
What I find interesting is that there have been a number of mostly "non-mainstream" theories in various disciplines that link a component of early Native American culture with something specifically coming out of the Middle Upper Paleolithic in Europe.
That's "specifically and directly" from Europe, not a thousad year Siberian trek across the straits of Alaska.
So here's a bunch of dots that seem to reasonable to connect:
1) The Solutrean hypothesis shows a very similar technology at about the same time as Clovis in the Atlantic Fringe. The geographic distribution of Clovis seems to overlay points 2, 3,4 below.
2) X2 is distributed throughout the Americas where its highest frequency overlays the Clovis culture sites. It's negligble spread in South America is probably the result of gene flow assuming X entered the Americas at a later date from the other four Native American mtdna haplogroups. Any form of X shows Eastern Siberia and East Asia were the other other Native American founding haplogroups are located in number and diversity . If it was part of the founding population of America along with A,B,C and D, why is it's distribution and diversity so far west? The Altay people are sometimes used as a relict population in West Siberia due to the presence of all four Haplogroups, but that combination can be explaned in other ways and migrations in the historical period.
3) Frequency of X2 peaks in North America dropping off sharply beyond Central America which suggests to me that it was not part of the originial founding population. Intrestingly, it peaks in areas where Q-242 peaks, and again in geographic areas where the Na-Dene family of languages are spoken, again limited to North America. American Q also has subclades that are too young to have come across the Beringia Crossing which no one seems to have an explanation for. If we open the door by stating that the Indian genome is not the result of a single founding across the bearing strait, then there is not reason to be supremely sure that X or Q at all was there day one as well and didn't migrate in a different way.
4) The most interesting bit is the extinction timeline of the mammoth. You will see that the extinction begins in Europe with (possibly) Solturean technology (or methods) and spreads westwardly through the Americas. Finally, the last mammoths die out in Siberia and a few islands. Is it possible that Q-M242 entered Asia via the Americas and further back from Europe rather than the other way around.
To quote wiki on the decline of the mammoths: "The spread of advanced human hunters through northern Eurasia and the Americas around the time of the extinctions was a new development, and thus might have contributed significantly" (What technology? Large bifacial, fluted spear points?)
5) Again with the distribution of Q, is it not possible that it's presence in Eastern Siberia is the result of a declining mammoth population and hunters tracking Westward, not Eastward following dying herds?
6) Are the Dene languages and Caucasian languages remnants of a race of mammoth hunters?