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Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

What about the Bell Beakers? Surely that is a shining example of pots are not people. There was a lot of trade throughout the world in the BA, but now we see that places like Anatolia were genetically impregnable until the IA, according to the upcoming Reich lecture. I think pots are important to us, rather than to them. I find it kind of silly to think ancient people cared so much about pottery and or even where their language came from even just 1000 years before them. These things only seem important because of the massive blank spots of what we know of in those times. Imho
 
Something I find interesting is the fact that many Albanians also share my same haplogroup group which goes back to the EBA. Perhaps brought in with the Yamnaya migration into the Balkans?
 
Jovialis said:
What about the Bell Beakers? Surely that is a shining example of pots are not people. There was a lot of trade throughout the world in the BA, but now we see that places like Anatolia were genetically impregnable until the IA
Click to expand...

Bell Beakers were considered by the "pots not people" crowd just a "social happening" and "trade network phenomenon". What is the reality? In some regions they eliminated within their sphere nearly 95 % of the local male lineages and replaced them. The autosomal replacement varies, but is in one of the highest ballparks every recorded in prehistory.
Yes, they did adopt elements into their package, before swarming out, largely. But here too: Where you got the whole cultural package, they did replace, with a few exceptions.

And I highly doubt the conclusion of Reich, its simply impossible. Even if the PIE would have been sitting somewhere around the Caucausus, that there was no penetration of Anatolia before the Iron Age, nothing recognisable at all, is simply not possible. I can only attribute it, if he presents any sort of data in that direction, as bad sampling strategy.
I'm particularly curious about Cernavoda into Troy. Whether they tested those groups and what's the outcome. If they didn't test it, that's like talking about "Yamnaya expansion" while ignoring Sredny Stog and the Lower Don cultural centre in the period before. Its just missing the point, either deliberately or by accident.

I find it kind of silly to think ancient people cared so much about pottery and or even where their language came from even just 1000 years before them. These things only seem important because of the massive blank spots of what we know of in those times. Imho
Click to expand...

Take G?va pottery as an example, it was ideologically, religiously loaded. Being connected with a specific ideology, whole package and religious motif.

People did keep specific pottery traditions with a strict borderline between complexes for hundreds years. And so far, in many such cases, if there was as strict border in the cultural package, the easiest to define aspect is pottery, then there was also a strict genetic borderline. We deal with different ethnicities.

That some people were as delusational as to say Channelled Ware appeared as a matter of "trade and contacts", even for areas in which there was never such kind of pottery before, yet it appars after all the settlements in the valley being burnt down and the local survivors fled ot the hills, is just idiotic. Even more so, if its not just the pots which were fine ware, black burnished, with channelling and knobs, black outside, red inside, but specific swords (Naue II category type Reutlingen), spearheads (like the casted flame shaped spearheads), molds, jewelry including fibulae (knobs), ritual pits, cremation burials in urns and scattered ashes, ritual hoards, first iron working etc., etc.

But of course, all those things which were extremely rare to non-existent appear after in some regions whole clusters of villages were burnt to the ground and the locals fled to the hills, that's just a (un-) lucky coincidence! Has nothing to do with migration, or that the groups to the South started to cross the Mediterranean as the Sea People, or the Illyrians moved to Southern Italy, because of the pressure from the North. That's all something people have "imagined".

I totally get that a culture or people could adopt foreign influences, but you know what's the difference: If local people just adopt a new style, it shows, it just shows. Because they do it in their very own way, based on the preceding traditions and they don't give up on all they made before, nor do they take up the whole package the foreigners brought in.
That's e.g. in Pre-G?va Lapus I the case. They still used earlier incision and broom stroke techniques which were old in the region, which other branches of G?va did not to the same extent. If you see something like that, you can say that its a local uptake or development.

But then again. For what I'm debating here, things are way different: We have the evidence for invasions and we have whole packages appearing and replacing local ones. Either fully or partly, with a speed (within one generation) which never happens without a large scale migration.

The funniest part is, that the evidence for Channelled Ware people's migration is better, with way more density of finds, than that for the migration of Celts in many areas, and of Bell Beakers and Corded Ware in particular. Because of the latter, you rarely have scenes of slaughter and a destruction horizon. They just appear, but the transition is missing. In this case that's true as well, for many areas, but in many others, because of the density of settling in that period and the finds made, we can actually see that they besieged and destroyed fortresses and settlements.
 
Riverman said:
Bell Beakers were considered by the "pots not people" crowd just a "social happening" and "trade network phenomenon". What is the reality? In some regions they eliminated within their sphere nearly 95 % of the local male lineages and replaced them. The autosomal replacement varies, but is in one of the highest ballparks every recorded in prehistory.
Yes, they did adopt elements into their package, before swarming out, largely. But here too: Where you got the whole cultural package, they did replace, with a few exceptions.

And I highly doubt the conclusion of Reich, its simply impossible. Even if the PIE would have been sitting somewhere around the Caucausus, that there was no penetration of Anatolia before the Iron Age, nothing recognisable at all, is simply not possible. I can only attribute it, if he presents any sort of data in that direction, as bad sampling strategy.
I'm particularly curious about Cernavoda into Troy. Whether they tested those groups and what's the outcome. If they didn't test it, that's like talking about "Yamnaya expansion" while ignoring Sredny Stog and the Lower Don cultural centre in the period before. Its just missing the point, either deliberately or by accident.



Take G�va pottery as an example, it was ideologically, religiously loaded. Being connected with a specific ideology, whole package and religious motif.

People did keep specific pottery traditions with a strict borderline between complexes for hundreds years. And so far, in many such cases, if there was as strict border in the cultural package, the easiest to define aspect is pottery, then there was also a strict genetic borderline. We deal with different ethnicities.

That some people were as delusational as to say Channelled Ware appeared as a matter of "trade and contacts", even for areas in which there was never such kind of pottery before, yet it appars after all the settlements in the valley being burnt down and the local survivors fled ot the hills, is just idiotic. Even more so, if its not just the pots which were fine ware, black burnished, with channelling and knobs, black outside, red inside, but specific swords (Naue II category type Reutlingen), spearheads (like the casted flame shaped spearheads), molds, jewelry including fibulae (knobs), ritual pits, cremation burials in urns and scattered ashes, ritual hoards, first iron working etc., etc.

But of course, all those things which were extremely rare to non-existent appear after in some regions whole clusters of villages were burnt to the ground and the locals fled to the hills, that's just a (un-) lucky coincidence! Has nothing to do with migration, or that the groups to the South started to cross the Mediterranean as the Sea People, or the Illyrians moved to Southern Italy, because of the pressure from the North. That's all something people have "imagined".

I totally get that a culture or people could adopt foreign influences, but you know what's the difference: If local people just adopt a new style, it shows, it just shows. Because they do it in their very own way, based on the preceding traditions and they don't give up on all they made before, nor do they take up the whole package the foreigners brought in.
That's e.g. in Pre-G�va Lapus I the case. They still used earlier incision and broom stroke techniques which were old in the region, which other branches of G�va did not to the same extent. If you see something like that, you can say that its a local uptake or development.

But then again. For what I'm debating here, things are way different: We have the evidence for invasions and we have whole packages appearing and replacing local ones. Either fully or partly, with a speed (within one generation) which never happens without a large scale migration.

The funniest part is, that the evidence for Channelled Ware people's migration is better, with way more density of finds, than that for the migration of Celts in many areas, and of Bell Beakers and Corded Ware in particular. Because of the latter, you rarely have scenes of slaughter and a destruction horizon. They just appear, but the transition is missing. In this case that's true as well, for many areas, but in many others, because of the density of settling in that period and the finds made, we can actually see that they besieged and destroyed fortresses and settlements.
Click to expand...

Do people honestly think, that David Reich, the foremost expert in population genetics knows less about what he is talking about than pseudonym laymen more than likely with less experience and education in the topic? You think you have a better command and understanding than the head of the lab that produced more than half the papers in archeogenetics? Honestly some of you people are starting to remind of antivaxxers who need to "do their own research" on the covid vaccine inspite of overwhelming data and proven effectiveness. Can we at least wait until the man speaks and presents the data to back his claims before becoming so impassioned?
 
ihype02 said:

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Albanian_Montenegro
Distance: 628.0296% / 6.28029572[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]73.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]26.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish_South[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Albanian_Macedonia
Distance: 819.6674% / 8.19667388[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]83.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]16.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish_South[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Albanian_Kosovo
Distance: 666.5453% / 6.66545269[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]82.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]17.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish_South[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Albanian_Catholic_Mirdite
Distance: 682.5687% / 6.82568678[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]100.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Albanian_South_Albania
Distance: 832.7333% / 8.32733295[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]92.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]7.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish_South[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Albanian_Central_Albania
Distance: 821.3798% / 8.21379757[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]96.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish_South[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Albanian_North_Albania
Distance: 797.5859% / 7.97585871[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]84.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]16.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish_South[/TD]
Click to expand...



The "fits" and distances are all very off, your results are totally inaccurate, because the Albanians are part of the Balkan cluster, not the Italian cluster. The distance in a two-way model is of fundamental importance. Otherwise, doing the opposite of you, I could model Tuscans as if Tuscans were Albanians with some Belgian, English or whatever ancestor. Moreover, with far better fits than yours.



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 2.5682% / 0.02568225[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]86.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Albanian[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]14.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]BelgianC[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 2.2056% / 0.02205580[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]76.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Albanian[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]15.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]French_Bearn[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]8.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]French_Provence[/TD]




[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 2.2698% / 0.02269837[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]68.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Albanian[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]31.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]French_Provence[/TD]


[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"][/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 2.6603% / 0.02660280
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]92.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Albanian[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]7.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]English_Cornwall[/TD]

With the Greeks, not surprisingly, the Albanians improve fit and distances.




[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB230
Distance: 2.1749% / 0.02174892[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]36.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_North_Tsakonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]28.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]17.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]17.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB220
Distance: 2.5650% / 0.02565026[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]81.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]9.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]4.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Izmir[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]4.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB213
Distance: 2.1059% / 0.02105851[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]40.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]27.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]14.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]8.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]5.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]4.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_South_Tsakonia[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB212
Distance: 2.4994% / 0.02499420[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]53.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Messenia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]26.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]19.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Argolis[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB202
Distance: 1.7753% / 0.01775333[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]49.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Argolis[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]26.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]14.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]5.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]5.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Trabzon[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB191
Distance: 2.4030% / 0.02402976[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]52.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]33.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]14.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL98
Distance: 2.7595% / 0.02759511[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]48.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]43.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]8.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Izmir[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL9
Distance: 2.2279% / 0.02227851[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]54.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]38.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]4.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]2.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Izmir[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL82
Distance: 1.8462% / 0.01846230[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]66.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]15.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_North_Tsakonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]10.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Polish[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]7.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL29
Distance: 1.4327% / 0.01432730[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]72.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]24.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]2.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL17
Distance: 2.2233% / 0.02223268[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]33.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Messenia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]28.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_North_Tsakonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]25.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]13.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]

[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL12
Distance: 3.3226% / 0.03322619[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]82.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]17.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]






Using "Macedonian", a south Slavic source, in place of "Polish".



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB230
Distance: 2.2943% / 0.02294323[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]84.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]15.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB220
Distance: 2.5710% / 0.02571026[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]63.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]36.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB213
Distance: 2.1974% / 0.02197376[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]56.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]14.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]12.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]8.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]8.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB212
Distance: 2.4994% / 0.02499420[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]53.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Messenia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]26.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]19.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Argolis[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB202
Distance: 1.7947% / 0.01794739[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]39.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]34.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]18.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Argolis[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]5.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Trabzon[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]2.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:ALB191
Distance: 2.3554% / 0.02355419[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]50.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]49.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL98
Distance: 2.7595% / 0.02759511[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]48.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]43.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]8.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Izmir[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL9
Distance: 2.2527% / 0.02252746[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]49.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]45.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]5.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL82
Distance: 1.9862% / 0.01986151[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]89.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]10.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL29
Distance: 1.4077% / 0.01407719[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]89.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]10.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Macedonian[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL17
Distance: 2.2233% / 0.02223268[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]33.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Messenia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]28.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_North_Tsakonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]25.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]13.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Arcadia[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2"]Target: Albanian:AL12
Distance: 3.3226% / 0.03322619[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]82.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn"]17.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Greek_Corinthia[/TD]
 
Jovialis said:
Do people honestly think, that David Reich, the foremost expert in population genetics knows less about what he is talking about than pseudonym laymen more than likely with less experience and education in the topic? You think you have a better command and understanding than the head of the lab that produced more than half the papers in archeogenetics? Honestly some of you people are starting to remind of antivaxxers who need to "do their own research" on the covid vaccine inspite of overwhelming data and proven effectiveness. Can we at least wait until the man speaks and presents the data to back his claims before becoming so impassioned?
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He definitely knows less about the cultures he is talking about. That's something he confessed himself, because about many archaeological problems, he simply has no clue. He also confessed, coming out of his own mouth, that he tries to please the majority views of the Western archaeologists community, which being just oriented on the "pots not people" and "ethnicity doesn't matter" with "routes of communication" interpretation.
That's not his expertise and he honestly doesn't really care. He once said that he could relieve the archaeologists involved by stating that "it is not Corded Ware", because German archaeologists still have a problem with Corded Ware. Yet we know by now, that it was indeed Corded Ware which brought up most of the IE cultures.

This background of him means he largely tries to please the archaeologist collaborateurs, which, in the West, largely go for the mentioned ideological interpretation in this time.

But all of that doesn't matter, because what really matters is the data his lab creates. And for having a solid base, we need to test the most important cultures. Like talking about the formation of the steppe ancestry, you can't miss the Lower Don cultural groups, and if you want to know something about PIE in Anatolia, and a potential route from the Balkans, we need samples from Cernavoda and Troy.
Probably his team has created these results, with really sufficient sampling, and he knows more than all of us and can definitely interpret things on the next level. But that's kind of the precondition. He doesn't know more per se, not at all, especially if talking about the archaeological background. He can just verify or falsify archaeological hypotheses which float around for a pretty long time. But only with sufficient sampling of the right sites and cultures.
 
Less than who, you?
 
Jovialis said:
Do people honestly think, that David Reich, the foremost expert in population genetics knows less about what he is talking about than pseudonym laymen more than likely with less experience and education in the topic? You think you have a better command and understanding than the head of the lab that produced more than half the papers in archeogenetics? Honestly some of you people are starting to remind of antivaxxers who need to "do their own research" on the covid vaccine inspite of overwhelming data and proven effectiveness. Can we at least wait until the man speaks and presents the data to back his claims before becoming so impassioned?
Click to expand...

These 'vaxs' had some efficacity to limit worst effects of Covid, not to limit seriously contamination, and cannot be named true 'vaccines' because they need to be taken every three or four months. Reality stays some times somewhere between radical opposed opinions, and not always in the official propheties nor in the nightmares of some "boiled heads"...
 
Jovialis said:
Less than who, you?
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Such a debate doesn't matter. Either his team has sufficient sampling of crucial sites or not.

And I know some stuff much better than he does, you can hear it out when he's talking, he has to rely on what other people prepared for him. But of course, I rely on what the real big experts on the matter wrote too. We're talking about different views and interpretations within the true archaeological expert community. Even if one point of view might be dominant now, that doesn't mean its right or wrong, there are other perspectives floating around and the only way to really decide who's right and who's wrong is by testing the ancient DNA.

Like take the GAC group: Many people, me included, wouldn't have thought that the GAC people had practically zero steppe admixture. Because culturally, while clearly distinct, they were among the closest people to Corded Ware pottery. Even their physical type while smaller and more Mediterranean was not fundamentally different. So coming from the classical archaeological and anthropological perspective, they could have been somewhat intermediary, but turns out they were not, initially, but completely different people genetically, strictly separated ethnicities.
That came as a surprise to me and many others. It is something only genetics can tell us, because there is no way to be sure.

This is what Reich and the other labs should provide, such evidence for ethnicities, migrations, social interaction and roles, family structures, individual mobilty and marriage patterns etc., etc. They are not the experts on archaeology, but they provide the additional evidence to decide debates of which some are going on for hundreds of years and others for decades at least.

Like the Channelled Ware phenomenon or the Anatolian IE speakers being hotly debated among experts for quite some time, ever since these phenomena were detected. Now its up to ancient DNA results to decide the debates, who was wrong, who was right. But for doing so you need to take the right samples.

Take for example the early concentration of the research on Khvalynsk: Many archaeologists hold up the view that this steppe group being a dead end branch, a fringe group from Lower Don/Sredny Stog, which mixed with locals and later largely disappeared. But since the teams of Reich & Co. followed the interpretation of other authors, which had a different opinion on the matter, they took a lot of Khvalynsk samples.

That wasn't wrong to do, but it just turned out what one half of the researchers had told us all along: It's a dead end, mixed fringe group.

Similarly, they had missed out the most important groups in Anatolia and at the Lower Don and Sea of Azow, also because there are not that many testable remains in the first place (soil and burial rite). But if you want to decide the debate, you need to have samples from those and not from anywhere else. That's just like it is. If you want to know who came into the Pontic steppe and brought new impulses to the region, presumably from the South, presumably with a lot of CHG ancestry, then you have to test sites like R. yar. If you want to know whether a Balkan route for Proto-Anatolian is a viable theory, you need Cernavoda and related Balkan groups with Western steppe influence and the sites arond Troy.
 
Why doesn't it matter? Also who are you to establish the criteria?
 
"I know stuff better than he does"

I doubt that.

Also the appeal to authority fallousy would actually be accurate to use if he attempted to pretend he was an expert in something he isn't. That's why he defers to experts in that field. This is interdisciplinary. It is not some guy on the internet pretending to know what he's talking about.
 
MOESAN said:
These 'vaxs' had some efficacity to limit worst effects of Covid, not to limit seriously contamination, and cannot be named true 'vaccines' because they need to be taken every three or four months. Reality stays some times somewhere between radical opposed opinions, and not always in the official propheties nor in the nightmares of some "boiled heads"...
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Show me the universal medical definition of a vaccine from a reputable source.
 
Jovialis said:
Why doesn't it matter? Also who are you to establish the criteria?
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What a question. Everybody which can add 2 +2 and knows a bit about the archaeological context has to come to the same conclusion or can't think straight. Its just that Reich & Co. tried to test every other hypothesis first, it seems to me, because they wanted "something else" to be true. Either that or really a lack of proper samples to test.
Doesn't matter, if he doesn't have those results from Cernavoda and related Balkan steppe groups and their proxies in Western Anatolia, especially around Troy, he is talking without data. It doesn't matter what the rest of Anatolia shows, because everything coming from the West could have been watered down so heavily, it won't be big any more.
Crucial is the entering point.

But if you don't like to listen to me, probably you listen to Anthony? Or do you think Anthony doesn't know archaeology better than David Reich? Everybody can make mistakes, can be wrong, at times, but Anthony is surely more to trust on the archaeological perspective than Reich. And that's simply because he is no educated expert on the matter to begin with.

Anthony-p46.jpg


From: https://books.google.de/books?id=DHnEDwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=de#v=onepage&q&f=false
Jovialis said:
"I know stuff better than he does"
I doubt that.
Also the appeal to authority fallousy would actually be accurate to use if he attempted to pretend he was an expert in something he isn't. That's why he defers to experts in that field. This is interdisciplinary. It is not some guy on the internet pretending to know what he's talking about.
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The problem is that in the majority of Western Univeristies the anti-migrationist idiocy became established since the 1960's. Those people don't want other results to appear than those they preached for decades. There is a minority of migrationists holding out there, more so in Eastern Europe than the West, and they look quite different on the same things.

Like I said, the "pots not people" fallacy is a huge problem in this field. Obviously, material culture doesn't always equate ethnicity, but whole packages do, more often than not. And even if there are exceptions in which the link doesn't hold, statistically its absolutely clear and they being refuted. Obviously they don't want to take yet another blow and always try to water all the results down with their interpretations. DNA is in these matters largely irrefutable. So the data matters most.
 
Riverman said:
What a question. Everybody which can add 2 +2 and knows a bit about the archaeological context has to come to the same conclusion or can't think straight. Its just that Reich & Co. tried to test every other hypothesis first, it seems to me, because they wanted "something else" to be true. Either that or really a lack of proper samples to test.
Doesn't matter, if he doesn't have those results from Cernavoda and related Balkan steppe groups and their proxies in Western Anatolia, especially around Troy, he is talking without data. It doesn't matter what the rest of Anatolia shows, because everything coming from the West could have been watered down so heavily, it won't be big any more.
Crucial is the entering point.

But if you don't like to listen to me, probably you listen to Anthony? Or do you think Anthony doesn't know archaeology better than David Reich? Everybody can make mistakes, can be wrong, at times, but Anthony is surely more to trust on the archaeological perspective than Reich. And that's simply because he is no educated expert on the matter to begin with.

Anthony-p46.jpg


From: https://books.google.de/books?id=DHnEDwAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=de#v=onepage&q&f=false
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David Anthony agrees with David Reich now, actually.
 
He is probably deferring to the expert opinion, who analyzed the data.
 
Jovialis said:
He is probably deferring to the expert opinion, who analyzed the data.
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I considered a fairly late entry of a significant part of the CHG ancestry with Neolithic package elements likely, based in the research at the Lower Don and Sea of Azow. However, that doesn't take away the local forager patrilineages and cultural influences, nor does it mean that Anatolian can't have taken the Balkan route.
And after the Lower Don cultural formations, thete was no significant Southern, non-Carpatho-Balkan influence on the steppe other than Maikop.
And their influences didn't reach far enough or replace the local lineages established by then.

So what kind of surprises should he have in his sleeves? I bet its rather lack of sampling still, but if he can prove the unlikely twist, I have no troubles with the factual truth.
Its just that missing data is no sufficient evidence.
 
As I’ve said before, pots are art and creative art influences neighbouring regions and further. Let’s focus on solid facts like yDNA and auDNA otherwise we’ll never agree.

About the models using Tuscany, modern Tuscans appear by coincidence to be the closest to IA Illyrians. The problem there stands with Polish_South because it doesn’t represent Slavic input but rather a Slavo-Daco-Celto-Scytho-Germanic input.

We know how the migration period brought many populations from the Carpathians and Pannonia down to the Balkans, either fleeing or joined the migrating/pillaging/invading tribes, which increased the pseudo-Slavic input in the Balkans.

And we know that there are Albanians (my family members included) who are genetically an “Illyrian relic” and not touched by the Northern Balkan and North East European admixture.
 
Jovialis said:
Show me the universal medical definition of a vaccine from a reputable source.
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I have not that at hand! but the current vaccines for diseases close to this kind of virus are for the most supposed to be valuable for one year; for other diseases, their validity goes even very farther. When our governments "selled" these precise vaccines to us, they did not tell us we should have to took them again and again.
By the way, I do not deny some value to them concerning hard forms of the disease, the most often concerning people with weak health. But their usefulness to prevent the transmisson of Covid is still to be proved, and the vaccine pass established by some states is a scandale.
I want not pollute this very thread; the general point was just that official/received science is not always God 's word, without I would participate in the present debate, because I have not yet read every post and I'm short about the concerned archeology.
I have to learn more.
 
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