Southern Illyrians & Mycenean Greeks on a PCA plot

[enter_tain]

demonstrating an increase in East Med / Anatolian / Levantine ancestry

That East Med has been high in the Eastern Balkans since forever. Check samples from Anatolia/Aegean Greece/Cyprus/Thracians/Dacians. Hence, pointing out that very eastern shifted Thracian/Bulgarian IA.

That's the entire point of this thread. To showcase that southwestern populations like Albanians and northern Greeks are not descendants of these groups.

https://i.imgur.com/scniWah.png

 

[torzio]

There is much to get aggravated over, because your arguments are non-sensical, and lacking historical context or logic. All Balkan populations increased in Steppe ancestry, during the Middle Ages. Meaning, if modern Albanians have 20% or whatever steppe ancestry, it should have been lower for Proto-Albanians. Something like 10-15%.

Please find me 1 population that is 10-15% steppe in the central or northern Balkans with no/little extra CHG. This is just basic logic that they descended from a population very similar to Myceneans, which would have only existed in the southwestern Balkans, I.E. where Illyrians/Albanoi/Taulanti/Dardani lived.

No other population makes sense to be ancestral to Albanians. Thraco-Dacians don't make sense autosomally, geographically OR linguistically. This is a very Mycenean-like population, that would have been close to guess what? The Myceneans.

why do you expect/want that the albanians need to be aligned/originated with anyone in the ancient times ?

The Trojans originated on their own ...............Not Greek, Not Hittite etc

The Etruscans where did they originate from ?

The Basques where did they originate from ?

You make a big/huge deal that the Albanians MUST be aligned with someone ..........................if they are as old as what Albanians say....then they are with nobody

 

[enter_tain]

why do you expect/want that the albanians need to be aligned/originated with anyone in the ancient times ?
The Trojans originated on their own ...............Not Greek, Not Hittite etc
The Etruscans where did they originate from ?
The Basques where did they originate from ?
You make a big/huge deal that the Albanians MUST be aligned with someone ..........................if they are as old as what Albanians say....then they are with nobody

It's not about "wanting". Albanians and northern/Doric Greeks cluster together autosomally. That's a fact. It's also a fact that they received some Slavic admixture, but less than South Slavs. Given those parameters they should cluster similarly in ancient times too.

Populations that live next to each other for thousands of years cluster similarly? Go figure.

Expecting northern Illyrians and southern Illyrians to be identical is like expecting northern Italians and southern Italians to be identical. It's utter nonsense. They should share some paternal linkage back to their proto-populations, but that's it. You can't expect autosomal uniformity.

 

[torzio]

It's not about "wanting". Albanians and northern/Doric Greeks cluster together autosomally. That's a fact. It's also a fact that they received some Slavic admixture, but less than South Slavs. Given those parameters they should cluster similarly in ancient times too.

Populations that live next to each other for thousands of years cluster similarly? Go figure.

Expecting northern Illyrians and southern Illyrians to be identical is like expecting northern Italians and southern Italians to be identical. It's utter nonsense. They should share some paternal linkage back to their proto-populations, but that's it. You can't expect autosomal uniformity.

The term Italian before 1861 when it became a national term was a geographical term equal to the term for Scandinavian or Iberian or Balkan...........

there is no north-illyrian or south-illyrian ..............all illyrians came from the north .................the south illyrians are the ones that had no celtic contact ......thats the only difference.....
all illyrians except the southern Illyrians where involved in tattooing their bodies and other "celtic " stuff ................all military gear came from celts........except the Corinthian helmets ( all made in Corinth ) which began to be imported around 400BC to the northern balkans or adriatic coasts

 

[Bekas]

Yeah, Greeks have divisions amongst themselves genetically. You have the Doric-speaking areas, and the Cypriot-like/Aegean areas. Which makes sense because Anatolia was showing those CHG markers around the time the Eastern/Southeastern Balkans started showing it too.

Where is the Doric speaker sample that shows that they are genetically different to Ionic speakers?

In your head maybe?

 

[Bekas]

It's not about "wanting". Albanians and northern/Doric Greeks cluster together autosomally. That's a fact. It's also a fact that they received some Slavic admixture, but less than South Slavs. Given those parameters they should cluster similarly in ancient times too.

That terrible PCA you post shows modern Northern Greeks and Albanians being close, not ancient BA or IA.

IA Bulgaria, if we assume that is a Thracian, who had control of Northern Greece of that time (excluding Ionic areas), prior to the Macedonian Kingdom expansion, is close to Myceneans, not Albanians. It stands to reason, until we are proven otherwise, that Thracians were southern people also, at least the ones neighboring Greece and Asia Minor.

Like someone else said, all this is a giant cope from Balkaners (some Greeks included) being pissed off they are so far away on those admixture oracles to ancient Mycenean and Thracian samples, due to their recent NE European genetics.

 

[Constantine]

Western Balkans had very little "extra" CHG, if none at all. And when they do it's balanced with ANE from steppe invaders. That Late Bronze Age Montenegrin in Illyria was like fully EEF.

We have to remember, though, that EEF in the Balkans wasn't all "native." It's not just old farmers from Anatolia. There were later waves that came up through Italy/Iberia and "circled around" down the Balkans.

 

[Constantine]

Iron Age Epirotes and Macedonians in partic
The samples that Davidski saw in Greece are "all over the place". (Probably like in Imperial Rome)

One can only speculate, but "all over the place" kind of gives me a vibe that the results didn't meet his expectations.

 

[Constantine]

Yeah everything points to a more "western" tint for the earlier Greeks.

More precisely, western-shifted mountain peoples must have pushed mainland Greeks to their current position.

 

[Bill7]

First of all Anatolia Neolithic is not the same as BA Anatolia. Eastern med islands have more BA Anatolia admixture not neolithic. Dude relax we need samples to be sure about anything

 

[Dianatomia]

I doubt they were separate race at all. Epirotans/Macedonians probably had quite some Steppe, not as much as more Northern Balkan tribes but still.

The Northern Balkan tribes, who are more similar to Greek islanders than to people living in the Balkans today.... Who cares if Macedonians and Epirotans had more Steppe than Myceneans, if any. They probably have less steppe compared to all the people living in the region today. Including Greek speakers.

 

[Bekas]

Eastern med islands have more BA Anatolia admixture not neolithic. Dude relax we need samples to be sure about anything

How do you know that exactly, any fstats to back that up?

 

[Archetype0ne]

I'm not "angry" but annoyed at reading 90% trash and 10% useful posts. It's like you have to sift through a bunch of garbage to read anything decent.

Albanians do not have 35% steppe ancestry. That's nonsense. Where are you getting this from? Are we talking about pure Yamnaya/WSH or EEF -admixed like Sintashta.



Things ARE that simple. The Middle Ages are from 400 to 1400 and it's been mentioned countless times that during that time Balkans have increased Slavic/Gothic that are more heavily in steppe DNA.

Greeks were mentioned to be something like "33% Polish-like" from one study, and the latest papers have mentioned at least 20% Slavic ancestry and it'd be higher if they did a proper model. That's increasing steppe. I have no idea who this "Maros" is, but all the Danubian papers are clearly not ancestral to Albanians autosomally.

Mate run your coordinates and check how much Yamnaya you have. Pretty sure me, Hawk and a bunch of other Albanian members score between 30-35%... We even posted our coordinates and results in the other thread, go check em out. I would be quite surprised if you have 15% Yamnaya. And yes... individual Yamnaya sample, as Yamnaya as it gets.

I am getting tired of people pushing Fallmayer theories so hard. Go read a paper or two, then start playing with the calculators. Even if 1/3 Polish like even if 1/2 Polish like, continuity is a different thing. Unless you think you are some Mycenean reincarnate. In that case, and if that is the standard you require for continuity, then we have no continuity even with our own Great-grandparents.

 

[Jovialis]

Western Jews definitely received a lot of Greek ancestry, and have been changed from their original Ancient Levantine genetic profile... Maybe being partly Ancient Greek is partly why they're erudite, and successful. Combine that with the strong sense of peoplehood they have from their religion, it is no wonder they've achieved greatness. They have the Mycenaean genetic profile, plus Aegean Islander, but also a relatively large amount of Iberomaurusian, which attributed to their Levantine origins.

 

[ihype02]

That terrible PCA you post shows modern Northern Greeks and Albanians being close, not ancient BA or IA.

IA Bulgaria, if we assume that is a Thracian, who had control of Northern Greece of that time (excluding Ionic areas), prior to the Macedonian Kingdom expansion, is close to Myceneans, not Albanians. It stands to reason, until we are proven otherwise, that Thracians were southern people also, at least the ones neighboring Greece and Asia Minor.

Like someone else said, all this is a giant cope from Balkaners (some Greeks included) being pissed off they are so far away on those admixture oracles to ancient Mycenean and Thracian samples, due to their recent NE European genetics.

Those PCAs in the OP are not "definitive" but several linear models that Davidski used.
In every single method including his own calculators Thracians are pretty close to Mycenaeans.
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/05/beware-of-greeks-bearing-gifts.html

Even though I believe the original ancestors of Albanians were more northern shifted than Bulgaria IA but that simply a guess of mine. But it does not bother me if they weren't.

 

[ihype02]

They don't have ancestry from assimilated Illyrians but from Vlachs. Illyrians ceased to exist long time before Slavs settled Balkans and assimilated former Roman citizens. Those peope were already diluted just like Italians. Looking at genetics plenty of east Med like admix entered Balkans during conquest and romanization of native tribes. There was also large movement of Vlachs from central and southern Balkans towards dinaric alps during Ottoman occupation. Lot of those got slavicized.

Thracians look rich in E-V13 comapred to Illyrians so that would explain it.

The genetic ethnogenesis of Serbs and Croats was largely formed before the Ottoman Empire and Vlachs that moved into Dinaric Alps were Romanian/Bulgarian-like. The trajectory of Croats implies that most of their Paleo Balkanic ancestry comes from HRV_IA mixed with some BGR_IA elements.

One E-V13 was found in Neolithic Dalmatia and Daunians are clearly shifted towards Tuscans.

 

[Illyria]

I see where enter_tain is coming from. Everyone is taking him out of context. He's not "wishing" for Albanian ancestors to be overwhelmingly Mycenaean-like, he's saying they will be pulled in that direction from mixing with more EEF as they made their way into the Southern Balkans. How people don't understand this baffles me. It's like genetics 101. Indo-Europeans didn't have much farmer DNA when they were fresh off the Steppes, they got more from assimilating neolithic farmers in Europe, wiping out most farmer lineages, and taking the women. Duh. We see a North West to South East cline in Italians, Albanians, and Greeks. Northern Italians, Northern Albanians, Northern Greeks, plot more North West, while Southern Italians, Greeks, Albanians, plot more towards the South East cline. It's a no brainer why they do. Farmers first came from the South East, from the Aegean to the Danube into Italy and the rest of Europe. They were more concentrated in Southern Europe hence why South Euros have more farmer and less Steppe than Northern Euros. Wish I could post some pics but I don't have enough posts yet.


Once we get samples from the Southern Balkans, I'm willing to bet they will plot just north of Tuscans, in between the Tuscan cluster and Albanian cluster, similar to the Logkas sample that Archetype0ne posted. If you were to add some minor Slavic/Gothic admixture to it, it would plot like a modern Albanian.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Not sure if he meant that, since the tone was distracting from the point he was trying to make. Or the fact that he was implying I was making points I was not. But having kept up with papers as they come, this has been an overwhelming theme in studies. Namely the relationships between these components, EEF / Yamnaya then later East Med admixture (with East Med they meant Anatolian/Aegean Islander/Levantine like Imperial admix) then later Slavic input. This topic has been discussed ad nauseam now. Now the Eastern Mediterranean spans half a continet. We are not talking Logkas / HRB MBA like North Italian/Albanian/Mainland Greek profiles, we were talking Anatolia and further East admixture.

Initially Neolithic in the region was pure EEF + minor CHG. Then with IE up to 1/3 of some samples showed Yamnaya admixture, meaning EHG+CHG in equal measures. Later during imperial times there was an influx that might or might not have left a noticeable impact today in the abovementioned regions that further increased BA Anatolian like ancestry, rich in EEF but also containing other signals like CHG and others I have to double check over.

Pretty much if one just takes half an hour to read Lazaridis Minoan Myceanean, Antonios Rome,the Etruscan paper, and the Danubian limes paper there is little to be discussed in the general macro changes. The bigger points of contentions have been more: where did the East Med (mentioned above) come from, whether from Anatolia or from the Islands/Levant, and how much they had an effect on todays populations (was it an urban phenomena minimized by the population sinks that were cities of the Roman period).

Again, the tone enter_tain was making his points in was not very enter_taining so his messages might have been lost on me.

 

[mount123]

The genetic ethnogenesis of Serbs and Croats was largely formed before the Ottoman Empire and Vlachs that moved into Dinaric Alps were Romanian/Bulgarian-like. The trajectory of Croats implies that most of their Paleo Balkanic ancestry comes from HRV_IA mixed with some BGR_IA elements.

One E-V13 was found in Neolithic Dalmatia and Daunians are clearly shifted towards Tuscans.

Croats are overwhelmingly Slavic in auDNA so your non sense is very much off. The E1b-V13 clades in Croats pretty much show a clear pattern: most of them were picked up by Slavs on their way to the Balkans mainly in Central-East Europe as in the Panonnian Plain, Dacia proper, much of it is Scythian, Central Balkan or Thracian derived.

Illyrians were IE not neolithic so putting a "E1b neolithic" sample in relation with IE Illyrians is ridiculous.

E1b-V13 has a very Eastern-/Central pathway when it comes to the Balkans. E1b-V13 is absent in IA Illyrians if there will be found any in the future than it will most likely be Scythian or (West-)Thracian derived. The Hungarian paper showed some of the E1b-V13 Avars had Illyrian mtDNA so there was definitely mixing.

Last but not least: You are not Illyrian not by paternal nor by maternal lines and most likely also not by auDNA. Deal with it and cope somewhere else.

 

[Jovialis]

I find it rather intriguing, that I am modeled as mostly Minoan, about a quarter Steppe, and have a haplogroup that is found in the Balkans during the bronze age. Frankly, I think I look similar to a pre-Slavic Balkanite/Greek.