Southern Italian Ethnogenesis (My theory)

How was I "proven wrong" and how is your "a simple and very brief clarification of [that] reality", and how is this "obvious that south Italians (or Greeks) have large extra-european admixture"? I'll bring up just the most recent paper, https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.02.26.482072v1, but it is already a known fact that the the majority of the literature, up to now, doesn't support such claims. It is getting tiresome that such claims just keep getting made without further backing up because, it is said, "they're obvious", yet the literature doesn't back them up.

To briefly state what the "state of the art" is up to now, it's true that south Italians and Greeks have higher affinities towards middle easterners because of their higher caucasus-related ancestry compared to other Europeans, and I agree that it is useful (not "ontologically true" or as "natural kinds", for those more philosophically inclined) to distinguish between "Europeans" and "Middle Easterners", since as intra-caucasoid groupings they seem very reliable and "real" as far as it is very easy to tell them apart, though I'd add that "Middle Easterners" ought to be broken down into further subgroups and as a label "Middle Easterner" just stands for "Not European". However, these are groupings that came to be during the bronze age, and the gene pool of Italy and Greece were either largely formed by its end or further contributions came from inside Europe (barring maybe some further Iron age augmentations from Anatolia and the known low levels of north African in some southern Italians), as the extra CHG Greeks and Italians carry was already present in similar levels in samples from all the way back to the Mycenaean period. If caucasus-related ancestry by itself is "extra-european" because it peaks in Caucasians-whereas, for example, Anatolian neolithic related ancestry peaks in south west Europe-, then we must also coherently say that north Europeans are less European than south west Europeans or than Sardinians because the steppe component which in Europe peaks in the north carries 40% caucasus-related ancestry. Said otherwise, the components in south Italy and Greece's gene pools were already present during the BA, the period the "European" and "Middle Eastern" gene pools formed, and it doesn't seem that further contributions from the Middle East are needed in order to explain the south Italians and Greeks' genetic make up, and actually there is evidence AGAINST such scenarios (for examples that haplogroups don't add up).

Since you brought up appearance as a kind of evidence, though it is not since we're strictly speaking of genotype/autosomal, I'd say that you're an American that hasn't set foot in Italy: as an Italian, precisely some one who has always lived in Sicily (Sicilian from mother's side, Emilian from father's side), it is my experience that it is extremely easy to tell apart "east meds", by which I take you mean Turks and Levantines, from all Italians, and usually it is Americans because of debatable casting choices made by Hollywood or other pop culture phenomena (including cherry-picked photos on the internet) that think otherwise. It may be true that such judgements are subjective and lack any substance to them (why I prefer to speak about autosomal), and it isn't to deny the existence of "funny looks" in Italy, but since it has been brought up I'll say that to me and the persons I've interactions with it is extremely easy to tell apart us Middle Easterners, indeed common folks in Sicily call every one that is visibly darker than us "Turcu", "Turk", and our "funny looks" are different from what we can call "east med" looks.

Leonardo: Good post: First time I actually ever ran my own Dodecad 12B coordinates vs Turkish samples. I also ran the population averages for Sicily, Campania, Calabria, Apulia and Abbruzzo. Nothing close at all. For the Greek samples distances much closer with many <5, which I don't think I need to post. And of course, I have never seen a published paper (Ever!) that has those regions listed above as plotting with Turkish samples.



Distance to:Italian_Sicily
19.89771595Turkey:tur262
20.66252163Turkey:tur52
20.83488661Turkey:tur210
21.28828786Turkey:tur20
21.81449518Turkey:tur2


Distance to:Italian_Campania
20.48160882Turkey:tur262
21.46847689Turkey:tur210
21.53508300Turkey:tur52
21.73708812Turkey:tur20
22.20104952Turkey:tur2


Distance to:Italian_Calabria
18.48463957Turkey:tur262
19.58649024Turkey:tur20
19.61444366Turkey:tur52
19.97742476Turkey:tur210
20.50360456Turkey:tur2


Distance to:Italian_Apulia
20.01008246Turkey:tur210
20.58985673Turkey:tur262
20.65304094Turkey:tur52
21.49759289Turkey:tur2
22.00883232Turkey:tur20


Distance to:Italian_Abruzzo
22.00538798Turkey:tur262
22.45253438Turkey:tur210
22.66137683Turkey:tur52
23.47617090Turkey:tur20
23.52214276Turkey:tur2



Distance to:PalermoTrapani_ANCESTRY
22.77877960Turkey:tur262
23.87896355Turkey:tur52
24.37781573Turkey:tur20
24.40335223Turkey:tur210
25.26955678Turkey:tur2

 
I don't even blame nick for having this misconception. If you read the news, and even the nomenclature used in some papers, they constantly use terms like Turkey, when in fact they really mean Anatolia_N. This may be confusing, but I think it is an outright obfuscation. The news and the way they frame some papers may as well be produced by the likes of Jada Pickett Smith. The only people from what is now Turkey that Italians are close to are Anatolian_N. There's more Anatolian_N in Italians than in modern Turks. In fact there's more Anatolian_N in French and English than modern Turks.
 
Does it really matter for Turkish identity? I don't think so, since they take their ethnic name and language from the conquers. They do have Anatolian_N of course, but there's a lot Syrian influence since the Hittites. Who they themselves were Anatolian_BA. This is in addition to the Turkic enrichment.
 
They do not, as Palermo demonstrated.

he didn't demostrate anything, south italians plot near ashkenazis, cypriots and other similar populations, turkish is somehow different because its east asian admixture, and anyway that vahaduo distance is not even so large, anway being predominantly a west eurasian population modern turks have sometimes european look, above all that one of southeastern euro peoples..
 
They do not, as Palermo demonstrated.

Jovialis: Just to refresh my memory, if we were to formulate a null hypothesis that Population A equals Population B in terms of genetic admixture/plots in the same PCA space, etc. A Dodecad 12b distance of 5 or less would be evidence the populations form a genetic cluster, conservatively If I remember what the creator of Dodecad 12b said, 7 would be a conservative critical value to make that conclusion. Accordingly, assuming I have my facts correct above, Dodecad 12b distances of > 5 for sure, and 7 (if you wanted to be more conservative) would be evidence to reject the null hypothesis that Population A equals Population B in terms of genetic admixture/plots in same PCA space, etc.

Continuing on, again assuming what I wrote above is correct then the distances from Southern Italians and Turkish would in fact say those 2 populations are distinct enough in terms of admixture and do not in fact cluster together (which they don't per every admixture model and PCA plot I have ever seen published in the extant literature).

With regards to Cypriots and Dodecad 12b Italian population averages, we get the following:

Distance to:Greek_Cypriot
11.69769635Italian_Jews
13.80741830Italian_Calabria
16.94310479Italian_Sicily
17.00926218Italian_Campania
17.77195544Italian_Basilicata
19.10659310Italian_Apulia
19.95015288Italian_Abruzzo


Regarding Greek population averages, we get the following:

Distance to:Greek_Cypriot
7.57679352Greek_Cappadocia
7.84850941Greek_Rhodes
8.74741105Greek_Kos
10.64342520Greek_Icaria
12.32271480Greek_Crete
13.18782772Greek_Fournoi
14.81955128Greek_Izmir
16.52590996Greek_Pontus
18.28810816Greek_Lemnos
19.38476206Greek_Foca
22.23314193Greek_Athens
22.68361082Greek_Central
24.52737858Greek_Peloponnese
27.43907615Greek_Thessaloniki
27.51509404Greek_Thrace
28.23999469Greek_Thessaly
33.22848025Greek_Macedonia

 
In Saupe et. al 2021 there is one sample from Lazio dated to 1608-1504 BCE, so the time of the Apennine culture.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982221005352

Maybe the substracte of the Apennine populations from the south was more "eastern" genetically (considering the Aegean connections of South Italy in the CA/EBA). Impossible to know at the moment.
4c76a259718dd004b30d8ede6e939b28.jpg

7307640bf8a7602b4b46bf913dc55e2b.jpg
 
No you are lying, research confirms what I said and what genetic calculators tell, southeastern euros, above all sicilians and island greeks, are peripheral populations, they have large CHG, Natufian, etc..DNA, we see on the g25, on the PCA.. stop denying and cope.


Correction: The Dodecannesians are not, by any means, 'peripheral', they are the actual center of the Eastern Greco-Roman Imperial world.
 
No you are lying, research confirms what I said and what genetic calculators tell, southeastern euros, above all sicilians and island greeks, are peripheral populations, they have large CHG, Natufian, etc..DNA, we see on the g25, on the PCA.. stop denying and cope.

Even Yamnaya had large portion of CHG ancestry, I wouldn't call them levantine.
Southern Italy doesn't seem to have extra natufian admixture when compared to Myceneans, while it does sows a bit more CHG related admixture. Some of it might be related to Eastern mediterranean contact of the Greek poleis of magna Grecia in the hellenistic period, but it doesn't seem a huge contribution, even judging by the the uniparentals
 
he didn't demostrate anything, south italians plot near ashkenazis, cypriots and other similar populations, turkish is somehow different because its east asian admixture, and anyway that vahaduo distance is not even so large, anway being predominantly a west eurasian population modern turks have sometimes european look, above all that one of southeastern euro peoples..

Ashkenazi are close to Greeks and south Italians, because they have a lot of Aegean ancestry, as well as some northern European, in addition to middle eastern, which coincidentally makes them plot there. I already explained Turkey. They do not plot near Cypriots, Cypriots plot near Lebanese. Even Italian Jews are a fit of 11+ vs Cypriots, that's not close.




I suggest reading some more genetic papers on these topics before posting. Unless you are asking questions, seeking knowledge.
 
No you are lying, research confirms what I said and what genetic calculators tell, southeastern euros, above all sicilians and island greeks, are peripheral populations, they have large CHG, Natufian, etc..DNA, we see on the g25, on the PCA.. stop denying and cope.

Distance to:Sicily_(n=37)
21.55285085Turkey:tur262
22.28120863Turkey:tur52
22.48406792Turkey:tur210
22.93916276Turkey:tur20
23.47230406Turkey:tur2
24.63062834Turkey:tur67
24.75923609Turkey:tur154
25.20854250Turkey:tur222
25.86796121Turkey:tur110
25.92709610Turkey:tur236
25.96564474Turkey:tur277
26.79668891Turkey:tur139
27.50011899Turkey:tur84
27.60072083Turkey:tur124
27.78572030Turkey:tur37
28.05298714Turkey:tur197
28.32970165Turkey:tur170
35.00689436Turkey:tur182
40.01370020Turkey:tur306


Distance to:Campania_(n=17)
20.22140540Turkey:tur262
21.23336847Turkey:tur52
21.43497639Turkey:tur210
21.65867863Turkey:tur20
22.27088989Turkey:tur2
23.31642935Turkey:tur67
23.52269882Turkey:tur154
23.98774211Turkey:tur222
24.51648619Turkey:tur110
24.82563869Turkey:tur236
24.98020548Turkey:tur277
25.43941016Turkey:tur139
26.23109932Turkey:tur84
26.48137117Turkey:tur37
26.58356792Turkey:tur124
26.59508692Turkey:tur197
27.25527668Turkey:tur170
33.90076636Turkey:tur182
39.24169086Turkey:tur306


Distance to:Calabria_(n=6)
19.54184435Turkey:tur262
20.66478439Turkey:tur52
20.70544004Turkey:tur20
21.00509813Turkey:tur210
21.60323696Turkey:tur2
22.70088722Turkey:tur67
22.94134362Turkey:tur154
23.32608941Turkey:tur222
23.67209498Turkey:tur110
24.14589228Turkey:tur277
24.61093078Turkey:tur236
24.70733050Turkey:tur139
25.69808061Turkey:tur84
25.78822368Turkey:tur37
25.81142087Turkey:tur197
26.07342416Turkey:tur124
26.74293765Turkey:tur170
33.51454581Turkey:tur182
39.15380246Turkey:tur306


Distance to:Basilicata_(n=9)
20.57359941Turkey:tur262
20.96914594Turkey:tur210
21.19182241Turkey:tur52
21.93221181Turkey:tur20
22.03287048Turkey:tur2
23.02350835Turkey:tur67
23.25234142Turkey:tur154
23.71985627Turkey:tur222
24.52231032Turkey:tur110
24.53153352Turkey:tur236
25.11890177Turkey:tur277
25.50603051Turkey:tur139
26.08012873Turkey:tur84
26.35905734Turkey:tur124
26.46913807Turkey:tur37
26.49854531Turkey:tur197
27.08867236Turkey:tur170
33.93600682Turkey:tur182
38.30927539Turkey:tur306


Distance to:Apulia_(n=230)
21.55223190Turkey:tur262
21.62818054Turkey:tur210
22.08713923Turkey:tur52
22.76297368Turkey:tur2
22.89939036Turkey:tur20
23.81234074Turkey:tur67
24.09533268Turkey:tur154
24.54476208Turkey:tur222
25.21084771Turkey:tur236
25.45675283Turkey:tur110
26.12322731Turkey:tur277
26.51579958Turkey:tur139
26.90079443Turkey:tur84
26.99519612Turkey:tur124
27.34050378Turkey:tur37
27.36513666Turkey:tur197
27.81878386Turkey:tur170
34.74346186Turkey:tur182
38.56972860Turkey:tur306


Distance to:Molise_(n=2)
23.14438593Turkey:tur262
23.21977605Turkey:tur210
23.71040278Turkey:tur52
24.39846102Turkey:tur2
24.57666983Turkey:tur20
25.53291993Turkey:tur67
25.86254435Turkey:tur154
26.33638927Turkey:tur222
26.65206559Turkey:tur236
27.22872013Turkey:tur110
27.94141908Turkey:tur277
28.36072460Turkey:tur139
28.39914611Turkey:tur124
28.55359172Turkey:tur84
29.01395699Turkey:tur37
29.13197213Turkey:tur197
29.30387517Turkey:tur170
36.19341100Turkey:tur182
39.76887854Turkey:tur306


Distance to:Abruzzo_(n=19)
23.13976813Turkey:tur262
23.73711009Turkey:tur210
23.80743052Turkey:tur52
24.86949348Turkey:tur20
24.98941903Turkey:tur2
26.13373864Turkey:tur67
26.30538889Turkey:tur154
26.83662345Turkey:tur222
26.84016492Turkey:tur236
27.70286315Turkey:tur110
27.92975852Turkey:tur277
28.54509019Turkey:tur139
28.83751496Turkey:tur124
28.88755952Turkey:tur84
29.36078194Turkey:tur37
29.65214087Turkey:tur170
29.78420909Turkey:tur197
36.12010171Turkey:tur182
40.52428083Turkey:tur306


Distance to:Jovialis
22.75523456Turkey:tur262
22.97770876Turkey:tur210
23.35725155Turkey:tur52
24.22127164Turkey:tur2
24.40373332Turkey:tur20
25.54262320Turkey:tur67
25.67444644Turkey:tur154
26.03100075Turkey:tur236
26.13397788Turkey:tur222
27.20097609Turkey:tur110
27.48166298Turkey:tur277
27.87890062Turkey:tur124
28.13233193Turkey:tur139
28.15136231Turkey:tur84
28.68055787Turkey:tur37
28.78264581Turkey:tur170
29.15198621Turkey:tur197
35.46421013Turkey:tur182
39.32602192Turkey:tur306

Yamnaya has more CHG than the majority of model middle easterners:

PapWg3d.png


Southern Europeans have more Anatolia_N than modern middle easterners, including turkey:


Oh, what happened, this is G25 too...

Like I said, even English people have more Anatolia_N than modern day middle easterners including Turkey:

VmkZw3q.png


Also, do not accuse our members of lying, when they are in fact speaking the truth. You received an infraction for that. Also, don't use puerile words like "cope", this isn't a stupid social media website. If you're going to come here and act like a child, and try to brow beat people with your ignorant lack of genetic knowledge, I am going to send you on a one way ticket out of here. This is the final warning.
 
In Saupe et. al 2021 there is one sample from Lazio dated to 1608-1504 BCE, so the time of the Apennine culture.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982221005352

Maybe the substracte of the Apennine populations from the south was more "eastern" genetically (considering the Aegean connections of South Italy in the CA/EBA). Impossible to know at the moment.
4c76a259718dd004b30d8ede6e939b28.jpg

7307640bf8a7602b4b46bf913dc55e2b.jpg

Undoubtably so, considering ties to Greece_N in Apulia. It is likely on a WHG/CHG cline from Central Italy to Southern Italy during this time period. Central Italy experienced a WHG revival in the copper age, while to previous samples show they actually had a bit extra CHG, which was not present in groups like LBK. Moreover, each iteration of Bronze age cultures in the south have always attested links to the Aegean.
 
Not to mention, ChL cultures, like Laterza culture, or Gaudo culture; who is to say these people experienced a WHG-revival in the copper age? What would be their CHG contribution?:


Jgwbwwg.jpg


We see that Tuscany and Central Italy were both in Rinaldone culture, and Ortucchio culture before Apennines culture.
 
Not to mention, ChL cultures, like Laterza culture, or Gaudo culture; who is to say these people experienced a WHG-revival in the copper age? What would be their CHG contribution?:


Jgwbwwg.jpg


We see that Tuscany and Central Italy were both in Rinaldone culture, and Ortucchio culture before Apennines culture.

UsuabZ2.png


We can see the North prefers a large segment of Remedello, and the South prefers something similar to Minoan (i.e. Greece_N-like)


Laterza culture has not been explored, but I bet it would be illuminating.
 
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Not to mention, ChL cultures, like Laterza culture, or Gaudo culture; who is to say these people experienced a WHG-revival in the copper age? What would be their CHG contribution?:


Jgwbwwg.jpg


We see that Tuscany and Central Italy were both in Rinaldone culture, and Ortucchio culture before Apennines culture.




Archaeological cultures do not always correspond to peoples, it is a complex subject.

The culture of Rinaldone has continuous and profound relations with the Remedello culture to the north and the Gaudo culture to the south.

The culture of Rinaldone is probably the last archaeological culture in the Prehistory of Eturia to be characterised by people without Steppe ancestry. Around its last phase, the arrival of objects from the Bell Beaker culture is recorded in Tuscany. It is in this last phase that the first individuals bearing Steppe ancestry may have arrived.

But the territorial extent of the Rinaldone culture does not correspond 100% to the territory of the Etruscans. There is an area in the south of Latium, which in historical times will be inhabited by Latin-Faliscan and Osco-Umbrian-speaking peoples that is as transitional between Rinaldone and Gaudo.

In Antonio's 2019 study there is a sample analysed from this area, R1014 from Monte San Biagio in the province of Latina, in southern Lazio, Monti Ausoni. Do we have the Dodecad K12b coordinates of R1014?
 
I noticed how in Oldade et al. there are at least four published greek samples from Empuries (one from the classical period, two from the hellenistic period and one from the Roman period) while we usually see just one of them in PCAs. I wonder if there is a specific reason for this.
 
My father's results using various calculators on this thread =

(1) Italy-Wide Comparison
Distance to:Dad
2.56341479Sicily_(n=37)
2.79042278Basilicata_(n=9)
2.83285574Campania_(n=17)
2.89760485Calabria_(n=6)
3.95410677Apulia_(n=230)
5.91451967Abruzzo_(n=19)
6.20552173Molise_(n=2)
8.60857921Lazio_(n=5)
9.49801952Marche_(n=18)
10.33839876Umbria_(n=13)
13.93482480Tuscan_(n=28)
14.15215520TSI_(n=96)
16.40094954Corsica_(n=12)
16.79643955Emilia-Romagna_(n=7)
18.98398536Liguria:ALP099
19.01966375Piedmont_(n=14)
22.48285453Veneto_(n=19)
22.54292286Lombardy_(n=17)
25.23456363Friuli-Venezia-Giulia_(n=16)
25.36805449Trentino-Alto_Adige_(n=9)
27.60773125Aosta-Valley_(n=2)

Iron-Age Populations

Distance to:Dad
7.38049456Prenestini_o:IA:R437:Antonio_2019
7.64875807Aposelemis_N(lc_conam.):APO038
7.86832257Chania_LBA:XAN026
8.39879753Mygdalia_LBA:MYG003
8.96253312GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA:I19368
9.23347172Aidonia_LBA:AID001
9.37521733Chania_LBA:XAN027
9.43336101Latini_o:IA:R850:Antonio_2019
9.43486089Himera_Med:Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20168
9.57605869Aidonia_LBA-rel.of.AIDOO1:AID002
9.92644952GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13517_d
10.10637423Krousonas_LBA:KRO008
10.22487164Aidonia_LBA:AID017
10.22562956Mygdalia_LBA-related:MYG008
10.29076771Chania_LBA:XAN042
10.38096335Aidonia_LBA:AID007
10.52150179Krousonas_LBA:KUK001
10.71836275Himera_Med:Himera_Civilian_Pop_Med:I20166
10.83233585GRC_Mycenaean_Kastrouli_BA:I13577
10.84293318Krousonas_LBA:KUK005
11.18743939Himera_Med:Himera_409_BC_Battle_Med:I17884
11.21281410Himera_Med:Himera_480_BC_Battle_Med:I10945
11.21466451GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA:I13518
11.26103459Aidonia_LBA-rel.of.AIDOO7:AID008
11.39103156Mygdalia_LBA-related:MYG005
 
Distance to:Dad
14.38325068Anatolian_BA:I2499:Lazaridis_2017
14.80050675Anatolian_BA:I2495:Lazaridis_2017
17.84221959Anatolian_BA:I2683:Lazaridis_2017
19.51700541Minoan:Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
19.56109915Minoan:Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
20.15869043Minoan:petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021
21.71346357Minoan:Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
22.12681631Minoan:Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
22.66882220Minoan:Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
22.91667297Minoan:Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
23.12189871Minoan:Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
28.82452602C_Italian_N:R9:Antonio_2019
29.32925672C_Italian_N:R18:Antonio_2019
30.46805540C_Italian_N:R3:Antonio_2019
31.17817987C_Italian_N:R8:Antonio_2019
31.19965224C_Italian_N:R10:Antonio_2019
32.18237561C_Italian_N:R2:Antonio_2019
33.00052727C_Italian_N:R19:Antonio_2019
34.88035694C_Italian_N:R16:Antonio_2019
37.87468416C_Italian_ChL:R4:Antonio_2019
41.26146507C_Italian_ChL:R5:Antonio_2019
43.00852357C_Italian_ChL:R1014:Antonio_2019
52.37861109Remedello:RISE489:Allentoft_2015
56.16528821Remedello:RISE487:Allentoft_2015
60.90265594Yamnaya:I0357_SVP5:Haak_2015


Target: Dad
Distance: 0.2418% / 0.24176134

55.6Minoan
22.4Anatolian_BA
18.0Yamnaya
4.0Iberomaurusian


Target: Dad
Distance: 0.2065% / 0.20652408

27.7GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA
18.6Himera_Med
12.4Latini_o
12.3HRV_Cetina_BA
9.6Etruscan_o
9.2Chania_LBA
4.8Beaker_Central_Europe
2.5Caucasus_Merc
1.1Beaker_Knezeves
0.8Aposelemis_N(lc_conam.)
0.6Beaker_Sicily
0.3Etruscan.Afr
0.1GRC_Palace_of_Nestor_EIA
 

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