Steppe as secondary PIE

[Sile]

the dark red ellipse on the map :

Nesa and Hattusa were in Hatti land, speaking Hurrite language
they were subjected by the Hitite speaking peoples in the southeastern edge of the dark red ellipse
those were the IE folks that founded the Hitite empire
the elite spoke Hitite, but natives of the Hatti land continued to speak Hattian
many soldiers were Hattians

hattusa is the capital of the hittites ..............hittite language formed from hatti language and then was replaced by luwian.................none have any semitic components, not even the northern levant .
these are the origins of indo-european along with sanskrit

 

[Sile]

Hattians and Hattic were not IE, just they were the native people before Hitties; IIRC half of the Hittite vocabulary is not IE...

link this not IE

 

[Angela]

They are saying prior to 1800BC. They don't know the exact when but it is at least. " (Tepe Hissar III, 3rd millennium BCE.: a seal shows a four-spoke wheel). "

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.nl/2014/01/material-and-spiritual-culture-of.html



What we do know for sure is that the Iranian Plateau Iranian 'Tepe Hissar' culture is much older than Sintashta. Iranian languages (split from the proto-Indo-Iranian) are much older than Sintashta. East Iranian speaking BMAC culture is also older than Sintashta. So, Sintashta is not proto-anything. It was just Iranized by people from the Iranian Plateau and we have got auDNA evidence for that. They have shown with Gedrosia auDNA that there was a massive invasion of Central Asia from Iran.




I checked the source once again. One group is saying that chariots of Sintashta are from 1700 - 1500 BC , while Anthony claims that it is from 2046 BC. Who should I do believe???


https://books.google.nl/books?id=aS...=onepage&q=war chariots sintashta age&f=false

You may have checked it, but you don't seem to have grasped the meaning. I frankly don't understand your confusion, as the passage is very clear. The author of the book you cited says that the prior early dates from "X" location were based solely on some parallels with ones from Mycenae, hardly a reliable manner of dating. Anthony found another spoked wheel chariot in location "Y" which happened to be buried with a horse head. Therefore, luckily, carbon dating could be done, and that carbon date is 2026 BC. Therefore, the author concludes that, this is now the earliest and most reliable date for a spoke wheeled chariot.

All this source says is that he has dated a seal found at Hisar, which shows a spoke wheeled chariot, to the 3rd millennium. I don't know how he dated it.
http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.nl/2014/01/material-and-spiritual-culture-of.html

What I do know is that in this source it says that the top layers at Hisar were disturbed, making it difficult to correctly date the layers. The opinion of this author is that the image of the spoke wheeled chariot is dated to the 18th century or slightly earlier.
https://books.google.com/books?id=F...HDAA#v=onepage&q=Hisar cylinder seals&f=false

So, as of now, the most reliable date and place is Sintashta, approximately 2000 BC. If you can find a carbon dated and therefore equally reliable date for anything south of the Caucasus I would be happy to change my mind.

 

[Milan]

The neck can turn but it is also round.


I didn't say anything about 'Indoeuropeans' though (or the meaning of any reconstructed root). But saying that the word meant 'wheel' in Greek is a misleading statement. As misleading as saying that it meant 'ring' or 'place of assembly'. People should accept that because it is a fact.

In Slavic is same "kolo" which is probably cognate with Greek "kuklos" mean both circle and wheel,by contrast neck is "vrat" in south-slavic finding it's cognate in "vrti"(to turn). But is true that the reconstructed word can be found as circle, wheel and as neck in Baltic among Indo-Europeans.

 

[berun]

@Sile, I'm not in the computer to look at files but you can start here

http://gejl.info/articles/hattic_language

 

[bicicleur 2]

You may have checked it, but you don't seem to have grasped the meaning. I frankly don't understand your confusion, as the passage is very clear. The author of the book you cited says that the prior early dates from "X" location were based solely on some parallels with ones from Mycenae, hardly a reliable manner of dating. Anthony found another spoked wheel chariot in location "Y" which happened to be buried with a horse head. Therefore, luckily, carbon dating could be done, and that carbon date is 2026 BC. Therefore, the author concludes that, this is now the earliest and most reliable date for a spoke wheeled chariot.

All this source says is that he has dated a seal found at Hisar, which shows a spoke wheeled chariot, to the 3rd millennium. I don't know how he dated it.
http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.nl/2014/01/material-and-spiritual-culture-of.html

What I do know is that in this source it says that the top layers at Hisar were disturbed, making it difficult to correctly date the layers. The opinion of this author is that the image of the spoke wheeled chariot is dated to the 18th century or slightly earlier.
https://books.google.com/books?id=F...HDAA#v=onepage&q=Hisar cylinder seals&f=false

So, as of now, the most reliable date and place is Sintashta, approximately 2000 BC. If you can find a carbon dated and therefore equally reliable date for anything south of the Caucasus I would be happy to change my mind.

his own text re the Tepe Hissar seal :

end of the 1st paragraph : the wheel depicted on the seal was not spoked

so, wrong again

I guess if anyone would find a spoked wheel dated before 2026 BC, it would be published largely and we would certainly hear about it

furthermore, a war charriot (with the spoked wheels as it had to be light) was useless without the well-trained horses
training the horses was as dificult - if not more - as building the charriot

there is no comparison with the solid-wheel Sumerian carts pulled by onagers

 

[bicicleur 2]

hattusa is the capital of the hittites ..............hittite language formed from hatti language and then was replaced by luwian.................none have any semitic components, not even the northern levant .
these are the origins of indo-european along with sanskrit

hatti and hitite language are totally different

hitite was the language of the conquerors

 

[LeBrok]

They are saying prior to 1800BC. They don't know the exact when but it is at least. " (Tepe Hissar III, 3rd millennium BCE.: a seal shows a four-spoke wheel). "

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.nl/2014/01/material-and-spiritual-culture-of.html



What we do know for sure is that the Iranian Plateau Iranian 'Tepe Hissar' culture is much older than Sintashta. Iranian languages (split from the proto-Indo-Iranian) are much older than Sintashta. East Iranian speaking BMAC culture is also older than Sintashta. So, Sintashta is not proto-anything. It was just Iranized by people from the Iranian Plateau and we have got auDNA evidence for that. They have shown with Gedrosia auDNA that there was a massive invasion of Central Asia from Iran.




I checked the source once again. One group is saying that chariots of Sintashta are from 1700 - 1500 BC , while Anthony claims that it is from 2046 BC. Who should I do believe???


https://books.google.nl/books?id=aS...=onepage&q=war chariots sintashta age&f=false

Goga, please stick with best sources, be factual and don't let your imagination run too wild. Or you'll be ashamed the same way as you were when your idea of purity of Iranian "race" was discredited by recent genetic papers.

 

[Goga]

his own text re the Tepe Hissar seal :

end of the 1st paragraph : the wheel depicted on the seal was not spoked

so, wrong again

I do understand you confusion. After re-reading the sentence I'm a little bit confused to. While everybody else is saying that the wheel is spoked, according to this writer it is not spoked (???) and seal is not from later period than 2350 BC.


But once again according to another writer a seal shows a 4-spoke wheel and it's from 3rd millenium BCE. SO that means it is from before 2000BC


" At Hissar were found arsenic-bronze, lead-bronze, lead, silver and gold. (Tepe Hissar III, 3rd millennium BCE.: a seal shows a four-spoke wheel). "

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.nl/2014/01/material-and-spiritual-culture-of.html


I was trying to find a picture of that seal online, but I can't find it.


Location of Tell Hissar:

 

[Goga]

Goga, please stick with best sources, be factual and don't let your imagination run too wild. Or you'll be ashamed the same way as you were when your idea of purity of Iranian "race" was discredited by recent genetic papers.

I'm an open book. I'm just showing the sources that I use. Nothing to be ashamed of.


And about the purity. I'm a 'pure' blood. And my people will always remain 'pure'. Western Iranian people, at least the Kurdish people are practically the same as their ancestors of the Iron Age (1200 BC). Since the era of Mitanni. That's a very long time. When a race doesn't mix much for the last 3000 years you can assume that that race is practically a 'pure' race. I'm practically identical to the Iranians of 3000 years ago (1200BC). After 3000 years modern Kurds still cluster together with the Iron Age (Mitanni / Kassites ) Iranians. 3000 years is a lot of years. It was even before the Mitanni/Kassite became and started to call themselves the Medes. Then, of course I do consider myself as part of the 'pure' people. Nothing to be ashamed of being almost identical to people who lived 3000 years ago!


And actually those Iron Age Iranians were the most LEGENDARY one. Those who defeated the Semites in the southern parts of the Mesopotamia and found the FIRST Aryan Empire, called the Median Empire.

I'm genetically the same like those 'Iranians' (Aryans) who found the Median Empire.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Another point of importance in that graph is the pie chart showing what looks to be 85% ASI and 15% ANI (or perhaps they mean 15% Iran-N) in Harappa. That surprises me. Given the similarities in culture, I had assumed that the mix would be closer to 50/50.

The green component on that map isn't ANI, it's Iran Neolithic/Mesolithic Caucasus, ANI is based on modern DNA. We know the researchers have Iran Neolithic aDNA. We don't know if they have pre-Neolithic South Asian aDNA. Their ASI reference might be modern Southern Indians and the 85% percentage may be masking a lot of Iran Neolithic ancestry.

 

[Sile]

hatti and hitite language are totally different

hitite was the language of the conquerors

watch this 2015 doco

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDrmsEueb-Q

 

[bicicleur 2]

watch this 2015 doco

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDrmsEueb-Q

sorry, Sile, I don't have time to watch a 3 hour documentary

the Hitite empire was actually a multi-ethnic, multi-linguistic confederation of allies

 

[bicicleur 2]

I do understand you confusion. After re-reading the sentence I'm a little bit confused to. While everybody else is saying that the wheel is spoked, according to this writer it is not spoked (???) and seal is not from later period than 2350 BC.


But once again according to another writer a seal shows a 4-spoke wheel and it's from 3rd millenium BCE. SO that means it is from before 2000BC


" At Hissar were found arsenic-bronze, lead-bronze, lead, silver and gold. (Tepe Hissar III, 3rd millennium BCE.: a seal shows a four-spoke wheel). "

http://bharatkalyan97.blogspot.nl/2014/01/material-and-spiritual-culture-of.html


I was trying to find a picture of that seal online, but I can't find it.


Location of Tell Hissar:

View attachment 8090

Goga, I found it interesting to learn about Tepe Hissar,
but your new source may well be dealing with the same seal again

I'm sure, if earlier charriots would be found for sure, it would be big news,
and we shouldn't look very long on the internet to find about it.

 

[bicicleur 2]

afaik there is still no DNA at all for this whole area and time period
there remains a lot to discover

 

[Sile]

sorry, Sile, I don't have time to watch a 3 hour documentary

the Hitite empire was actually a multi-ethnic, multi-linguistic confederation of allies

sorry then, you are in error remembering older studies

 

[MarkoZ]

As to some comments made above, after combing through all the papers, it's basically unclear where the wheel was developed. There are finds placing it in TRB very early, as well as some indications it was invented in the Near East. Whether it was invented in one area and spread to the other or was invented simultaneously in both places I'm not sure.

However, I don't think horse domestication can be placed anywhere but the steppe. That is also, as I stated above, where the earliest spoked wheel chariots can be found.

The answer is not going to be found in the words for "wheel" or "horse", or, in the location of the first spoked wheel, in my opinion. It's going to be found in the ancient dna.

However, the alleged invention of spoked wheels in Sintashta-Petrovka is somewhat doubtful. The only reason we know about these chariots in the first place is the fact that they left impressions in the permafrost. Further south these vehicles wouldn't have left traces in the archaeological record.

Littauer and Crouwel, who are the foremost experts in the small field of chariot construction, believe that the Sintashta-Petrovka vehicles are too lightly & shoddily (the dimensions were completely off) constructed to have been of much practical use. They agree with the chief excavator of the Sintashta-Petrovka site, Vladimir Gening, who contended that these vehicles were purposely made grave goods much like those common in early imperial China, where the chariot had but a marginal role in warfare. These had little in common with the highly maneuverable war chariots that would come into use in the ancient Near East. Indeed, the researchers conclude that the Sintashta-Petrovka vehicles 'cannot have been true chariots yet' (Littauer, M A; Crouwel, J H. Antiquity

70.270

(Dec 1, 1996): 934.) . The obvious conclusion would be that we are dealing with a derived technology at this site.

In their book, Littauer and Crouwel trace the origin of the light horse-drawn vehicle to the Syrian Bronze Age site of Tell es-Sweyhat. Here we find in a damaged clay figurine the earliest depiction of a horse as a drought animal - the horse seems to have been part of a horse-chariot toy, dated to 2300 B. C. . Another site of interest in this particular context would be Anatolian Acemhöyük, where the earliest preserved spoked wheels were unearthed in a hoard containing two chariot figurines made from metal. Adjusted dates for these artifacts would probably be quite revealing. For what it's worth, Stanislav Grigoriev derives Sintashta-Petrovka from Syro-Anatolia, so this would neatly explain the early appearance of the light horse-drawn vehicle in northern Kazakhstan.

 

[Dagne]

Mesopotamia, to my knowledge, didn't have wheels before the Uruk period. I might add that the Sumerian word for 'wheel', ḫu-bu-um, bears no relationship with the Indo-European words for wheel (*kwekwelos and *(H)rotheH)).

In the modern Lithuanian *kwekwelos = kaklas (neck) and (H)rotheH)= ratas (wheel)