This does not change the fact that those samples are representative only of Croats living close to the Slovenian border.
The Balkans as the Gateway to Europe
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This does not change the fact that those samples are representative only of Croats living close to the Slovenian border.
Yetos
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an interesting point, which I read in the forum is a post from an old member, (which I missed him)
his name was Zanipolo,
he notice the differences among mtDNA and Y-DNA in some parts of Balkans,
he expressed that are areas that y-Dna is very low as Slavic but mtDNA is very high, giving numbers like 60% of Slavic mtDNA to population that should have about 20%.
a good question is,
if some Y-DNA is neolithic in Balkans, then sould also have simmilar mt-DNA at a normal analogy,
do we see such an analogy? where we do, and where we do not see this, why?
his name was Zanipolo,
he notice the differences among mtDNA and Y-DNA in some parts of Balkans,
he expressed that are areas that y-Dna is very low as Slavic but mtDNA is very high, giving numbers like 60% of Slavic mtDNA to population that should have about 20%.
a good question is,
if some Y-DNA is neolithic in Balkans, then sould also have simmilar mt-DNA at a normal analogy,
do we see such an analogy? where we do, and where we do not see this, why?
King Bardhyl
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The ancient writers unequivocally described Epirotes as barbarians; in all probability, this term is not meant to show Epirotes as backward Greeks as many modern Greeks claim. Judging by their language, customs, traditions and the way of life (which differed completely from that of Greece proper), ancients reckoned them to be 'barbarians':
Strabo, Geography, 7. 7. 1
Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names—Cecrops, Godrus, Aïclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks (though this was still more the case formerly than now); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians—Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes—Epeirotic tribes.
καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν ὀνομάτων δὲ ἐνίων τὸ βάρβαρον ἐμφαίνεται, Κέκροψ καὶ Κόδρος καὶ Ἄικλος καὶ Κόθος καὶ Δρύμας καὶ Κρίνακος. οἱ δὲ Θρᾷκες καὶ Ἰλλυριοὶ καὶ Ἠπειρῶται καὶ μέχρι νῦν ἐν πλευραῖς εἰσιν· ἔτι μέντοι μᾶλλον πρότερον ἢ νῦν, ὅπου γε καὶ τῆς ἐν τῷ παρόντι Ἑλλάδος ἀναντιλέκτως οὔσης τὴν πολλὴν οἱ βάρβαροι ἔχουσι, Μακεδονίαν μὲν Θρᾷκες καί τινα μέρη τῆς Θετταλίας, Ἀκαρνανίας δὲ καὶ Αἰτωλίας τὰ ἄνω Θεσπρωτοὶ καὶ Κασσωπαῖοι καὶ Ἀμφίλοχοι καὶ Μολοττοὶ καὶ Ἀθαμᾶνες, Ἠπειρωτικὰ ἔθνη.
Robert Browning's Medieval and Modern Greek, 1983, p. 2, n. 7
"The language of the Epirotes is repeatedly described in antiquity as non-Greek (Thucydides 1.47, 1.51, 2.80, Strabo, 8.1.3). Yes the Epirotes were connected with the origin of various Greek communities. There may well have been an ethnic and linguistic mixture in Epirus, some tribes speaking Greek, others Illyrian or some other language (cf. Hammond (1967) 423; Katičić (1976) 120-7)"
Graham Shipley's The Greek World after Alexander, 2000, p. 111
"The Arrian passage reminds us of an important fact of Macedonia's location: its neighbours - Thracians, Paionians, Epirotes and Illyrians - were primarily non-urban peoples with more or less hellenized elites."
Michael Grant, Rachel Kitzinger, Civilization of the ancient Mediterranean: Greece and Rome: Volume 1, 1988, p. 203:
"On the other hand, Thucydides (1.47.3, 5o-3) and Strabo (7.7.1) call the Epirotes barbaroi: only two of Thucydides' (2.80) northern chieftains have Greek names and many Epirote tribes did not speak Greek (Strabo 7.7.1) and even enjoyed...
Ronald Edward Latham, In quest of civilization, Jarrolds limited, 1946, p. 247, chapter "Trying to be Greeks":
On the fringe of Hellas, and not yet fully accepted as Greeks even in name, lived the Epirotes and the Macedonians. Though these were being progressively Hellenized by contact with Greek colonies on the coast and their rulers claimed descent from legendary Greek heroes, the Greeks still regarded them, as the more civilized Chinese regarded the Ch'in,
From a classical Greek point of view, the northwest of Greece was inhabited by a bunch of barbarian tribes, in which the fifth-century sources are nor really interested. They contradict each other about which nations could be classified as western Greeks, Epirotes, or Illyrians. It does not really help us that the tribes did not leave behind written texts. Several sanctuaries, like Dodona, appear to have been hellenized quite early, but the people of the northwest retained some archaic traits. Several tribes were led by kings, something that was very unusual in the Greek world. On the other hand, the nearby Macedonians shared some of these characteristics.
All these specific characteristics were shared by the Illyrians as well. This gives at least theoretically some room for connecting Epirotes with them in terms of ethnicity.
'In October 1984, 70 historians and archaeologists from Greece, Albania, Romania, Italy and several other countries of Europe convened in Clermont-Ferrand, France. They held a colloquium with a group of Specialists in ancient history who were working there under the direction of Proffesor Pierre Kaban, the renowned expert on Epirus. They compared studies on the tribal and ethnic groups which gradually organised into urban life, then federated into state organisations. They compared juridical institutions such as family right of ownership, the role of the woman in the family and the procedure in freeing slaves. Similarities of Epirotes centers like Dodona and those of Southern Illyria were evidenced by the layout, architecture, and political organisation, also the circulation of coins, the structure of groves, the burial rites and articles found in the tumuli. But scholars concluded that from early antiquity until the Roman times THAT CULTURE OF SOUTHERN ILLYRIA AND EPIRUS, INCLUDING MOLOSSIA, WAS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF CLASSICAL GREECE AS FOUND IN ATHENS AND SPARTA' (Jaques 1995:80/81)
Bibliography:
Edwin.E.Jaques 1995 'The Albanians: An ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present'
According to an earlier source (Theopompus) in Epirus lived fourteen tribes. Of course he did not define the ethnicity of them but the later sources does distinguish Epirotes from the Greeks.
"In later times more than half of Aetolia ceased to be Grecian, and without doubt adopted the manners and language of the Illyrians, from which point the Athamanes, an Epirote and Illyrian nation, pressed into the south of Thessaly. "
The Historians' History of the World: Greece to the Peloponnesian war
Henry Smith Williams - 1904 - p. 111
It has been thought by some scholars that Illyrian presence is to be detected even in Aetolia and Acarnania. They based their opinion on thorough analysis of Thucydides's paragraph which recognizes a large non-Greek element among Aetolians:
«τὸ γὰρ ἔθνος μέγα μὲν εἶναι τὸ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν καὶ μάχιμον, οἰκοῦν δὲ κατὰ κώμας ἀτειχίστους, καὶ ταύτας διὰ πολλοῦ, καὶ σκευῇ ψιλῇ χρώμενον οὐ χαλεπὸν ἀπέφαινον, πρὶν ξυμβοηθῆσαι, καταστραφῆναι. ἐπιχειρεῖν δ᾿ ἐκέλευον πρῶτον μὲν Ἀποδωτοῖς, ἔπειτα δὲ Ὀφιονεῦσι καὶ μετὰ τούτους Εὐρυτᾶσιν, ὅπερ μέγιστον μέρος ἐστὶ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν, ἀγνωστότατοι δὲ γλῶσσαν καὶ ὠμοφάγοι εἰσίν, ὡς λέγονται» (ΘΟΥΚΥΔΙΔΗΣ III.94)
III,94: The Aetolian nation, although numerous and warlike, yet dwelt in un-walled villages scattered far apart, and had nothing but light armor, and might, according to the Messenians, be subdued without much difficulty before succors could arrive. The plan which they recommended was to attack first the Apodotians, next the Ophionians, and after these the Eurytanians, who are the largest tribe in Aetolia, and speak, as is said, a language exceedingly difficult to understand, and eat their flesh raw.
The 'Barbarians' to which Thucydides is referring are beyond any doubt, Illyrians.
Aetolia (in the Roman sense of the name) had not been greatly affected by Hellenic civilization when the Romans conquered it. Five Aetolian cities, evidently Hellenic and distinguished, figure in Homer. But Thucydides and the Greeks of the classical age regarded the Aetolians as barbaric. […] They extended their rule over tribes to the north whom the Greeks of the great age looked upon as savages. In the pages of Livy, Philip V of Macedon is made to admit the Hellenic character of some Aetolians, but to deny that the greater part of those who bore the name were Greeks. The Aetolians were natural enemies of the more civilized Greek peoples…
Sir William Woodthorpe Tarn, of the British Academy, regarded worldwide as having written the definitive work on Alexander the Great, states in the opening paragraph of his book Alexander the Great that “Alexander certainly had from his father (Philip II) and probably from his mother (Olymbia) Illyrian, i.e. Albanian, blood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Woodthorpe_Tarn
King Bardhyl
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A History of Greece from the Earliest Period to the Close of the, volume 3, George Grote, 1882, p. 417: “…the coast of Epirus from the entrance of the Ambrakian gulf northward to the Akrokeraunian promontory, we shall find it discouraging to Grecian colonization. (…) we may understand why the Grecian emigrants omitted this unprofitable tract, and passed on either northward to the maritime plains of Illyria, or westward to Italy. In the time of Herodotus and Thucydides, there seems to have been no Hellenic settlement between Ambrakia and Apollonia.
King Bardhyl
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The Illyrians: history and culture, Aleksandar Stipčević, 1977: “Willy Borgeaud, a most persistent and tireless searcher among Illyrian remains in Greece, asserted that Boeotia, Acarnania, Aetolia, Argos and Sparta were full of Illyrian toponymes.”
King Bardhyl
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And I will conclude with a philhellenes:
George Finlay
[h=1]History of the Greek Revolution (1861[/h] [h=1]https://archive.org/details/historygreekrev02finlgoog[/h]
The Albanian forms a distinct race among the nations
of Europe. They have been supposed by some to be
the representatives of the Pelasgians. They call them-
selves Shkipetar. Some suppose them to have occu-
pied the regions they now inhabit before the days of
Homer, and that they are the lineal descendants of
the race to which the ancient Epirots and Macedo-
nians belonged as cognate tribes. Alexander the Great
must, according to these archaeologists, have spoken
an ancient Albanian dialect at his riotous banquets
with his Macedonian officers.
George Finlay
[h=1]History of the Greek Revolution (1861[/h] [h=1]https://archive.org/details/historygreekrev02finlgoog[/h]
The Albanian forms a distinct race among the nations
of Europe. They have been supposed by some to be
the representatives of the Pelasgians. They call them-
selves Shkipetar. Some suppose them to have occu-
pied the regions they now inhabit before the days of
Homer, and that they are the lineal descendants of
the race to which the ancient Epirots and Macedo-
nians belonged as cognate tribes. Alexander the Great
must, according to these archaeologists, have spoken
an ancient Albanian dialect at his riotous banquets
with his Macedonian officers.
King Bardhyl
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From genetics do not understand, but I hope I help you with these references in order to have a clearer picture.
IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!
GJERGJ KASTRIOTI SCANDERBEG
IF OUR CHRONICLES DO NOT LIE, WE CALL OURSELVES AS EPIROTES!
GJERGJ KASTRIOTI SCANDERBEG
Ike
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Exactly. Dalmatians, whose genetics is more close to Bosniak and Serbs gravitate towards the shore cities like Dubrovnik, Split, etc. They are not rightfully represented here, I've marked them in orange.On the other hand samples from Serbia are in fact from Belgrade, but Belgrade is the only center of gravitation inside Serbia, because it's the sole richest city, it covers the whole turquoise area. That's why people from poor parts of South and East Serbia end up there. As far as Bosnian results are concerned: Zavidovici, Zepce, Maglaj, Livno, etc.. those are extremely small places with low population income.
These results are 100% expected, and I would have drawn them the same even if you didn't show me the samples...
King Bardhyl
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Do not discuss about these things, you do not know the history of Greece to 200 years ago.
King Bardhyl
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In all these posts I tried to explain that your idea was wrong.
albanopolis
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Illyrians were mentioned in Homer's "Iliad" 2000 yrs bc. Get the book and take a look. I have seen it myself in English translation. 4oo bc is Alexander's of Philips time and Illyrians were very active in the area.
The term Illyria its not a random term with no specific meaning. For Albanian speakers its immediately noticeable because it means a " free man". Go to google translation and write free, see what do you get in Albanian.
Since there was severe slavery in Greece and Italy in antique times Illyrians took pride of being free and named their land, the land of free man(not slavery).
Were Illyrians a homogeneous people? Its hard to say. I also tend to believe that Illyrians were majority in the area but among them should have been other population living until they mixed.
Even today Albania is not homogeneous. There are pockets of Slavs, Vlahs, Greeks.
Sile
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I again state .............where is the balkan border of Europe
I again state ................where is Illyrian script ........link me a site
scarce material finding pertaining to Illyrian language and culture, It has been quite a while since the scholarly Illyrian studies became overshadowed by the politically biased interpretations and skirmishing. Needless to say, this kind of approach is not only far from being scholarly, but it also created political stereotypes andcircular definitions pertaining to Illyrians. The very word Illyrian has been so contaminated generally by political interference that any mentioning of it must necessarily engage some extreme political skirmishing of the two extremely opposing views, one claiming that Illyrians have absolutely nothing to do with modern inhabitants of former Illyrian lands (specifically Albanians, who claim Illyrian descent), and the other favoring the idea that there was a direct and absolutely uninterrupted development of Illyrian society into that of modern Albanian. Again, the truth might be somewhere in between. In addition to onomastic material pertaining to ancient Illyrians, there is a number of cultural and traditional elements in Bosnia that have been connected through comparative studies with the culture of ancient Illyrians. However, the scarce material and written historical records available so far does not allow us to draw any approximate conclusion as to the territorial extent of Illyrian language and culture, and the extent of the survival of Illyrian language and culture and their assimilations into contemporary ethnic and regional cultures of the Balkans.
above from 2013
Dalmat
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Exactly. Dalmatians, whose genetics is more close to Bosniak and Serbs gravitate towards the shore cities like Dubrovnik, Split, etc. They are not rightfully represented here, I've marked them in orange.On the other hand samples from Serbia are in fact from Belgrade, but Belgrade is the only center of gravitation inside Serbia, because it's the sole richest city, it covers the whole turquoise area. That's why people from poor parts of South and East Serbia end up there. As far as Bosnian results are concerned: Zavidovici, Zepce, Maglaj, Livno, etc.. those are extremely small places with low population income.
These results are 100% expected, and I would have drawn them the same even if you didn't show me the samples...
not true, and bosnian croats cluster with croats, and serbs dont cluster with bosniancs, but with romanians and bulgarians, only bosnian serbs are near bosniacs because of serbification, and mixing
Serbs=east balkan
share roots with bulgarians and romanians because of thracian natives
Dalmat
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no they are not, there is huge overlap between serbs and rum/bulgarians, while only few stretch to the edge of bosniaks, probably bosnan serbs who today live in serbia, because there is lots of migration of bosnian serbs to serbia
Besides their native base was the same, tracians, during age of byzantium, serbs were belived to be tribali by greek historians, a tracian tribe, also first Serbian state Rascia is teritorialy the same Tracian tribali teritory
Yetos
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the mountain Aimos peninsula is strange,
original term borders are the ex-Thracian expansion, Serbia Bulgaria Slavic Makedonia, half Romania, North N/East Greece, European Turkey Kossovo but not Albania and possibly Bosnia (East of Dinaric Alps to Balck sea, south of Istros/Donav to mt Olympos.
Generally today is modern Greece Albania Kossovo Bulgaria Serbia Bosnia Croatia Romania, Slavic Makedonia, European Turkey
the under the Istros (Donau) to Crete.
but due to many nation relation history and neighborhood influence, political
we consider Balkans Greece Albania Kossovo Bulgaria Slavic Makedonia Romania Serbia Bosnia/Erzegovina Croatia European Turkey, minor Asian Turkey, and count also Slovenia Moldova, and also Hungary, Cyprus the south East of Italy, the minor Asia coast of today Turkey although they are not geographically,
for example Slovenia is out of geographical AImos paninsula, but as south Slavic is consider related and was for years connected with both Balkans and central Europe so you can count her as member, but not to the core of balkans
Dalmat
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Ilirian(or west Balkan people) origin is Carpathian mountains, basically todays Czech and Slovakia, 1000 bc they entered west balkans
Area was connected trough vučedol culture before
Iliran was greek/roman exonim, these tribes never called themselves ilirian, probably comes from lira, a measurement unit for currency, leter on we had Italian money lira which comes from that, i-lira, without coins, probably to designate tribes who didnt use money for trading, which probably meant roman or greek coins were worthless to them.
No money or coinage was found in west balkan, only later roman era coinage when they were already part of roman empire