The Bronze Age Collapse and its possible ancient DNA implications

In my opinion they were Mediterranean islanders, probably related to Phoenicians, Anatolian IEs, and maybe Greeks later. I believe they were mostly pre-Greek though.




Thyrenians are the one Greeks call Pelasgians,
Athens spoke thyrrenian before Dorian descent south, Attica is Pelasgian word
Θησεας is the Hercules of pelasgians
Miltiades hunt the last Thyrenians from Lemnos (lemnean stele)
Thyrrenianspelasgians are probaly connected with Hatti people
Peleset could also be pelasgians,
the connectiong pelasgians and philistines is well known, god Dragon, Dracon's law, Pentapolis etc etc
θηρα might be a center of Pelasgians,
there is a work about not only Lemnos but also at Cyclades islands and especially andros were they found godess Atun, an Etruscan godess,
as also Serden could be also from minor Asia and not Sardinia, and moved there with Etruscans

the connections of sea people with Pelasgians/Etruscans is obvious,
the problem is that they came from Italy to Aegean and Crete or they moved from minor Asia to Aegean to Italy?
the most possible from me that they moved from minor Asia, living space to the 1rst Greek colonization to coach of minor Asia.
until that time the only devastation known is the Arcadians (Arzawa) that moved from minor Asia to Peloponese
words like ωκεανος τιταν ταρταρος Αττικα παρνασσος Ανθρωπος Λαρισσα Λαβυρινθος (la = stone) Are from pelasgian origin and possibly hatti (ko no so =κνωσσος hatti co no = Αττικον)
 
I believe the pre-Greek population was diverse* and the term 'Pelasgian' was applied inconsistently. (Sometimes for ancestors of Hellenes also)

*In my opinion possibly Etruscan-like, IE Anatolian, Semetic-like, other Paleo-Balkan
 
I wonder wether there realy was a population replacement or a large invoasion for that matter.
It was a very turbulent period with lots of destruction, but few cities were actually abondonned.
Some scholars say it was just a replacement of the power structures.
In Greece the palaces of the people in power were destroyed, but not the cities.
There was no language shift, the classic Greeks basically spoke still the same language as the Mycaeneans, even though the Dorians, Ionians and Aeolians from the Balkans had joined them.
 
Thyrenians are the one Greeks call Pelasgians,
Athens spoke thyrrenian before Dorian descent south, Attica is Pelasgian word
Θησεας is the Hercules of pelasgians
Miltiades hunt the last Thyrenians from Lemnos (lemnean stele)
Thyrrenianspelasgians are probaly connected with Hatti people
Peleset could also be pelasgians,
the connectiong pelasgians and philistines is well known, god Dragon, Dracon's law, Pentapolis etc etc
θηρα might be a center of Pelasgians,
there is a work about not only Lemnos but also at Cyclades islands and especially andros were they found godess Atun, an Etruscan godess,
as also Serden could be also from minor Asia and not Sardinia, and moved there with Etruscans

the connections of sea people with Pelasgians/Etruscans is obvious,
the problem is that they came from Italy to Aegean and Crete or they moved from minor Asia to Aegean to Italy?
the most possible from me that they moved from minor Asia, living space to the 1rst Greek colonization to coach of minor Asia.
until that time the only devastation known is the Arcadians (Arzawa) that moved from minor Asia to Peloponese
words like ωκεανος τιταν ταρταρος Αττικα παρνασσος Ανθρωπος Λαρισσα Λαβυρινθος (la = stone) Are from pelasgian origin and possibly hatti (ko no so =κνωσσος hatti co no = Αττικον)

All you're saying is questionable and not supported by modern research, this is still a section of ancient DNA. An argument like this deserves more balanced tones and less one-sided conclusions.

The connections of Sea peoples with Pelasgians/Etruscans is not obvious and still not proven and you're referring to obsolete hypothesis, theories and authors.

Not to mention that Pelasgian is a broad term, it means everything and nothing at the same time and it was used for pre-Hellenic people as much as for Hellenic people, while Etruscan is an exonym and is not even proved an etymological link to Tyrrhenian.

Considering that there is no archaeological evidence of a mass migration, the study of modern populations shows that there are no meaningful relationships.

Also an autosomal DNA from 2,500-year old Etruscan samples doesn't support a minor Asian or Aegean origin.

etruscans.jpg
 
I wonder wether there realy was a population replacement or a large invoasion for that matter.
It was a very turbulent period with lots of destruction, but few cities were actually abondonned.
Some scholars say it was just a replacement of the power structures.
In Greece the palaces of the people in power were destroyed, but not the cities.
There was no language shift, the classic Greeks basically spoke still the same language as the Mycaeneans, even though the Dorians, Ionians and Aeolians from the Balkans had joined them.

A Dorian invasion never happened. It is not accepted today by archaeologists. It was either a 'migration' or 'return' and probably they came from Northwestern Greece at that time (the migration from the steppes happened much earlier). Maciamo says that Dorian 'invaders' where R1b while Myceneans R1a. There's no real evidence for that speculation. I believe the Proto-Greeks (I include Macedonians) and the Proto-Phrygians belonged originally to the same groups of IE migrants/invaders but they split and and mixed with different groups of Pre-Greeks. (The Phrygians in Asia Minor mixed with Anatolian IEs and Thracians and were perceived as barbarians during classical antiquity but anyone who knows ancient Greek can understand what the following means "Midai lavagtaei vanaktei" ​for example)

 
Considering that there is no archaeological evidence of a mass migration,

Νο
the archaiology has proved the oposite,
that there was a connection,
so probably was a migration,
now how massive i can not say.
 
Νο
the archaiology has proved the oposite,
that there was a connection,
so probably was a migration,
now how massive i can not say.

Can you show me this archeological evidence? And exactly, migration from where or connection?
 
I wonder wether there realy was a population replacement or a large invoasion for that matter.
It was a very turbulent period with lots of destruction, but few cities were actually abondonned.
Some scholars say it was just a replacement of the power structures.
In Greece the palaces of the people in power were destroyed, but not the cities.
There was no language shift, the classic Greeks basically spoke still the same language as the Mycaeneans, even though the Dorians, Ionians and Aeolians from the Balkans had joined them.


not exactly, Mycaenae palace was not build by Myceneans, it was captured, some parts are old enough, i read many extra-facultated theories from whoever, but surely were older before 2500 BC and to some 3500 BC
the megalithic structure of mycaenae palace/walls is a kind of para-Vinca megalithic structure,
although circular tomb B or A if remember correct around 1730 is purely IE Mycenean
same exist in many other places in Greece,
 
It makes sense. Bronze Age invaders couldn't conquer South Europe till end of Bronze Age/Collapse period. South depopulated and opened to big invazions from North. Bronze Age Armadello-Italy looks mostly EEF too, like Balkans.

Wasnt this the time when E-V13 expanded? It is more or less agreed that E-V13 expanded during the Bronze age and one of the major haplogroups of these regions. So would E-V13 be part of the collapse or part of the invaders?
 
Can you show me this archeological evidence? And exactly, migration from where?

since you are Italian,
then check villanovan culture swords,
not a socket, but nails correct? mainly 3?
then go to Arne Furumark, the archaiologist of Etruscans

I will bring you more linguistic and archaological I have to leave now,
 
Wasnt this the time when E-V13 expanded? It is more or less agreed that E-V13 expanded during the Bronze age and one of the major haplogroups of these regions. So would E-V13 be part of the collapse or part of the invaders?

The data we have from King et al. of E-V13, Places the expansion of this haplogroup squarely in the Aegean Bronze Age. It has to be well connected with these events one way or the other.
 
not exactly, Mycaenae palace was not build by Myceneans, it was captured, some parts are old enough, i read many extra-facultated theories from whoever, but surely were older before 2500 BC and to some 3500 BC
the megalithic structure of mycaenae palace/walls is a kind of para-Vinca megalithic structure,
although circular tomb B or A if remember correct around 1730 is purely IE Mycenean
same exist in many other places in Greece,

so that makes the palace about as old as Troy
could the palace have been build by people related to the founders of Troy?
or do you see a connection with Vinca?
Vinca did not build stone houses in the Balkans, it were wooden houses
is it possible that the Mycaeneans were only rulers taking over power and leaving the original population intact and not mass invaders?
 
The data we have from King et al. of E-V13, Places the expansion of this haplogroup squarely in the Aegean Bronze Age. It has to be well connected with these events one way or the other.
yFull TRMCA estimate 4300 years
the Greek expansion does not explain the wide spread of E-V13 over almost all Europe
E-V13 must have expanded before
 
I wonder wether there realy was a population replacement or a large invoasion for that matter.
It was a very turbulent period with lots of destruction, but few cities were actually abondonned.
Some scholars say it was just a replacement of the power structures.
In Greece the palaces of the people in power were destroyed, but not the cities.
There was no language shift, the classic Greeks basically spoke still the same language as the Mycaeneans, even though the Dorians, Ionians and Aeolians from the Balkans had joined them.

That's indeed what the modern scholarship seems to show. There doesn't seem to be any indication in the archaeology of major population movements in that area with the end of the Bronze Age. Even in terms of language there wasn't an overall shift, and the languages are all Greek. People forget that Doric wasn't spoken all over Greece, and even in areas where there was a transition, the scholarship seems to indicate not even a "replacement" of the elites, but a "blending" of the elites.

There's also numerous books on the subject. However, who knows what the dna will actually show.

I thought I'd mention that there's the recent genetics work from, I think, the Bean Project, the same group that revealed that the mtDna of Greek Mesolithic hunter-gatherers had no mtDna "U". Unfortunately the abstract itself isn't very informative.

"The origin of the Aegean palatial civilizations from a population genetic perspective

Unterlander etal

Focusing on the Neolithic 6600-3200BCE and the Bronze Age, after 3200BCE
A place of early urbanization, palaces, coastal settlements, an exchange networks. "

"
http://meeting.physanth.org/program/2015/session18/papageorgopoulou-2015-the-origins-of-the-aegean-palatial-civilizations-from-a-population-genetic-perspective.html

"The present paper investigates the origins of the Aegean pre-palatial civilizations (5th-3rd millennium BC) by applying cutting-edge methods of molecular biology and population genetics. The term Aegean Civilizations refers to the novel human lifeway (agriculture and craft specialization, redistribution systems, intensive trade) that appeared during the end of the Neolithic and the beginning of the Bronze Age in the Aegean. Although many studies exist on archaeological constructions of ethnic and cultural identity on mainland Greece, the Cyclades and Crete, not enough efforts have been made to explore this direction on a population history basis. We have investigated Late, Final Neolithic and Early Bronze Age human skeletons (n=127) from the Aegean using ancient DNA methods, next generation sequencing (NGS) technology and statistical population genetic inferences to i) gather information on diversity, population size, and origin of the pre-palatial Aegean Cultures, ii) to compare them on a genetic basis, in terms of their cultural division (Helladic, Cycladic, Minoan) and iii) to investigate their ancestral/non-ancestral status to the Early and Middle Neolithic farmers from Greece. In addition to mitochondrial DNA genomes, by applying a capture-NGS approach we collected information on functional traits of the early Aegean communities in southeastern Europe. Considering the International Spirit that overwhelms the Aegean during the 3rdmillennium BC, seen by the wide distribution of artifacts, this palaeogenetic approach provides valuable new insights on population structure of the groups involved in the Neolithic-Bronze Age transition and the spread of specific alleles in this part of Europe."

From articles in the news about the paper that was presented: "The village residents of the Bronze Age (2500 BC-1850 BC) Xeropigado Valley Kozani were lactose intolerant and therefore could not digest milk. Moreover they had brown eyes and dark skin. The new data is revealed by DNA analysis of skeletal remains found in the Bronze Age cemetery, one of the few of this period investigated systematically in ​​the Macedonian region."

"An equally important finding for Greece is the recovery of entire genomes of three prehistoric farmers who lived in northern Greece 7500-5500 thousand years ago. These farmers were from Neolithic settlements in Paliampela Kolindrou and Revenia Korinou Pieria and the Kleitos Kozanis."

To my knowledge they've never published any details.

However, didn't one of the guys who posts at Eurogenes contact her, and didn't she say that the biggest change in the genetics was from the early to the mid-late Neolithic? Of course, since this conclusion is apparently only based on mtDna sequences, it's hardly "conclusive" . :)

Still, in central Europe it was a folk movement of both men and women so I don't know why it would have been different here. Since mid-late Neolithic is when we find E-V13 and J2 showing up in Europe, perhaps it's the same movement. Then, apparently there was some change from late Neolithic to Bronze Age, but still with low FST between them. (I think she dated Bronze Age to 3200 BCE) So, was Drews right all along and the "Indo-European Greeks" entered Greece from the east instead of the north-east from the steppe via the Balkans, thereby having passed through northern Anatolia? Or was it a case of the Mycenaeans only being a small group? I don't know. I thought the Bean project would clear all this up, but they're slow as molasses. Maybe it was sort of like Remedello and the culture changed before any major genetic change.

There's just no way of knowing until we get the ancient dna.

I know that's a little off topic as it doesn't directly relate to the Iron Age transition, but I think it shows that it may be wrong to try to transpose what happened in central and northern Europe to southern Europe. The "Indo-Europeanization process may have been different in the two areas, so you may be looking at slightly different base line "Bronze Age" genetics in the two areas.
 

"An equally important finding for Greece is the recovery of entire genomes of three prehistoric farmers who lived in northern Greece 7500-5500 thousand years ago. These farmers were from Neolithic settlements in Paliampela Kolindrou and Revenia Korinou Pieria and the Kleitos Kozanis."

To my knowledge they've never published any details.

However, didn't one of the guys who posts at Eurogenes contact her, and didn't she say that the biggest change in the genetics was from the early to the mid-late Neolithic? Of course, since this conclusion is apparently only based on mtDna sequences, it's hardly "conclusive" . :)

Still, in central Europe it was a folk movement of both men and women so I don't know why it would have been different here. Since mid-late Neolithic is when we find E-V13 and J2 showing up in Europe, perhaps it's the same movement. Then, apparently there was some change from late Neolithic to Bronze Age, but still with low FST between them. (I think she dated Bronze Age to 3200 BCE) So, was Drews right all along and the "Indo-European Greeks" entered Greece from the east instead of the north-east from the steppe via the Balkans, thereby having passed through northern Anatolia? Or was it a case of the Mycenaeans only being a small group? I don't know. I thought the Bean project would clear all this up, but they're slow as molasses. Maybe it was sort of like Remedello and the culture changed before any major genetic change.
Interesting. Perhaps they found a village of newcomers E-V13. LP negative and of darker skin. Makes some sense on the surface.
 
In my opinion they were Mediterranean islanders, probably related to Phoenicians, Sardinians, Anatolian IEs, and maybe Greeks later. I believe they were mostly pre-Greek though.



I wonder if that's a list of where they came from or where they settled?

Could the groups who failed to take Egypt have sailed further west to Sicily etc.
 
but that is surely oposite against Mycenean culture, whom we know were already at Mycaene at 1730 BC and surely much earlier at more North parts,
Iωλκος should be much earlier to that,

troyan war is estimated around 11-12 century BC
Sea peoples are after troyan war,
many believe that troyan war was the start

Yep, many think that the Homer was none other than tales from this period. It would have been a huge series of upheavals that people remembered for thousands of years.

I know we sort of snicker at the notion of "ages", but they really were significant. In this particular transition even art changed it's basic forms from more geometric to curved over a vast region. This is fascinating to me. It means that people's fundamental view of the world had changed.
 
One thing that grabbed me about this was that in ash layers on the Levant they find some of the first real bronze slashing weapons (legit sword, Naue II type) that originate in central Europe. So whatever happened was wide reaching, it's not some hiccup where we may be misinterpreting things.
 
I thought I'd mention that there's the recent genetics work from, I think, the Bean Project, the same group that revealed that the mtDna of Greek Mesolithic hunter-gatherers had no mtDna "U". Unfortunately the abstract itself isn't very informative.

probably it would be very difficult to determine correctly mtdna due to contamination. Remember at the great part we are dealing with DNA found in more temperate areas were dna extraction is more possible (at least thats whay I heard) Some bones were tested in Mycenae tombs and this is what was stated. (no link provided sorry but the write up looks professional enough). Unfortunatly when we come to Southern European ancient dna it seems that there is alot of shooting in the dark.

quote - The sequences obtained from
G55 and G58 corresponded to mitochondrial haplogroup UK, those
from Z59 corresponded to haplogroup U5a1 or U5a1a, and those
from A62 matched the Cambridge Reference Sequence, compatible
in the region sequenced with various haplogroups including H,
HV1, J, U, U3 and U4 (but not UK, U5a1 or U5a1a). Details of all
sequences and the deduction of haplogroups are given in Supplementary
Material. - end quote

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?49966-Ancient-DNA-from-Mycenae-Grave-circle
 
Interesting. Perhaps they found a village of newcomers E-V13. LP negative and of darker skin. Makes some sense on the surface.

We are talking about events happening 7500 -5500 we know E-V13 has been roaming around in Europe at least for 7000 ybp. and it seems that melanin levels during this period were not a detrimental issue to distinguish particular groups as perhaps it is today and Lactose tolerance only started around 4000 ybp Correct me if Im wrong.
 

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