The Celts of Iberia

[spongetaro]

As much as 75% of Iberia was likely POPULATED by Celts or Celtiberians

Can you tell me where I can found more iron age demographic data ? I guess census was very accurate at that time

 

[Wilhelm]

Minus Lusitania? Why, because the language behavior was only Para-Celtic? Consider Lusitania's full culture, which was very similar to what we know existed in Gallaecia. Think again...

Yes. My opinion about Lusitanian is that it was a proto-Celtic language (early form of celtic) but culturally the lusitanians can be considered fully celtic, since they had different elements considered as such, and were surrounded and influenced by celtic peoples, in the south (Celtici), east (Celtiberians), north (Gallaecians). One example of this cultures is the human sacrificies, when Diodorus describes human sacrifices carried out by druids in Gaul, he outlines a similar procedure to that described by Strabo among the Lusitanians.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Yes, when it comes to "saturation". Center-West of Iberia.


Spain is not celtic, nor any country in the world. Spain is today a ROMANCE country, like France is. However, what we are saying, is that :
1) Iberia has a much celtic ancestry as France or Ireland as demonstrated by language, archeology and genetics, despite not speaking any celtic langauges (today)
2) Despite not speaking anymore celtic languages, the NW of Iberia has culture, traditions, mythology, folk, festivities, customs, which share common elements with other areas like British Isles or Brittany

Yes, by political geography no one is "Celtic" today. What we have is Celtic history and there are some areas that maintain key aspects of Celtic culture - a Celtic consciousness.

 

[spongetaro]

Just answer my question:
-Was Lusitanian a Celtic language ?
*YES
or
*NOT

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Can you tell me where I can found more iron age demographic data ? I guess census was very accurate at that time

Wilhelm posted some well structured scientific data on that. I'm sure you read it. No need to adopt a cynical stance.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Just answer my question:
-Was Lusitanian a Celtic language ?
*YES
or
*NOT

Untermann (1987) and Anderson (1985) see it as Celtic. Most still classify it as Para-Celtic or Proto-Celtic, for reasons previously discussed. Obviously, Lusitanian was an IE language. Again, language is simply behavior generated by cultural processes. Consider the full body of culture...

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I was waiting for the "French denial" card, or the "no more argument" card. French people consider themselves as "Latin" culturally which is a bit more understandable than this "Spanish Celtic folk" 2000 years after any Celtic language was ever being spoken in Spain.

Nah, it's not denial...It's something else.

 

[spongetaro]

Utermann (1987) and Andrews (1985) see it as Celtic. Most still classify it as Para-Celtic or Proto-Celtic, for reasons previously discussed. Obviously, Lusitanian was an IE language. Again, language is simply behavior generated by cultural processes. Consider the full body of culture...

Then if Lusitanian is Para-Celtic, hw would you define Latin ?

 

[Wilhelm]

Can you tell me where I can found more iron age demographic data ? I guess census was very accurate at that time

There are studies which approximate demographics of that time, based on :

1) The calculation of ancient authors (romans and greeks basically) like Plinius or Ptolomeus, which gave not only population but extension approximations
2) The archaelogy (extension of the Oppidas, Populis and Civitate),
3) The iuventus, (youngs enrolled to war)
4) Size of the Necropolis
5) birth rate, death rate, wars
6) Geography

 

[Wilhelm]

Here is the study on the approximation of demographics, and it's made by the Real Academy of History, the Casa Velázquez, the Universidad Complutense of Madrid :

http://www.rah.es/catalogo/catalogo/gabinete\bah\Celtas e Iberos.pdf

 

[spongetaro]

Here is the study on the approximation of demographics, and it's made by the Real Academy of History, the Casa Velázquez, the Universidad Complutense of Madrid :

http://www.rah.es/catalogo/catalogo/gabinete\bah\Celtas e Iberos.pdf

it's partly in French, thank you

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Then if Lusitanian is Para-Celtic, hw would you define Latin ?

Well, let me put it this way, Latin is not Para-Celtic. Obviously it's an IE language.

Actually, my friend Taranis would be a better person to ask for specifics.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

it's partly in French, thank you

Keep in mind that this study focuses only on Celtiberian (Central Spain) settlement. The Celts of western Iberia are not a part of the research.

 

[Regulus]

I was talking about autosomal, which covers the whole genome, unlike haplogroups.


No, it is not, from a historical point of view.

OK understood and I am open to that.

 

[Taranis]

Well, let me put it this way, Latin is not Para-Celtic. Obviously it's an IE language.

Actually, my friend Taranis would be a better person to ask for specifics.

Latin, along with what is sometimes dubbed the "Sabellic" languages (that is, Oscan and Umbrian, based on the exonym that the Romans collectively gave to the peoples that spoke these languages), as well as a few other languages is part of the Italic language family.

The general idea is that the Celtic language family and the Italic language family are closely related inside the Indo-European language family, though linguists are divided wethere there was a common "Italo-Celtic" stage or not. The similarity between Celtic and Italic is even more pronounced in the ancient Celtic languages is the existence of a complex declension system (it's in particular attested in Celtiberian, Gaulish and Ogham Irish - though our knowledge of Gaulish in that respect is most complete!), and it has been suggested that this similarity promoted the adoption of Latin by the various Celtic-speaking peoples in continental Europe following their conquest by the Romans.

Regarding the position of Lusitanian, in my opinion, it may very well represent a third branch along with the Celtic and Italic families of the western IE languages. Or, it may be related closer with the Celtic languages than with the Italic languages. Either way, any of the Celtic languages are closer to each other than to Lusitanian, IMO.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Excellent information.

 

[Canek]

h t t p : / / 2.bp.blogspot.com/_Tt85ctisiCU/TGa_3fQEfBI/AAAAAAAACM8/cy2jKEQAGhc/s1600/gitanos.jpg the celts of iberia??? lol yeah right, if iberian people are celts i am conan the barbarian.

 

[Reinaert]

Gitanos are Gypsies.
No Celts.

 

[Canek]

so what? they have the typical iberian features. spaniards and portugueses usually look like that. they don't belong to europe racially or culturally.

 

[Reinaert]

so what? they have the typical iberian features. spaniards and portugueses usually look like that. they don't belong to europe racially or culturally.

No, the origin of this photo is http://www.9am.ro/

(Check Tineye)

That's in Romania. Eastern Europe.

But it seems that someone used that photo for his own purpose.

And I smell a troll... :innocent: