The curious case of Albanian coincidences

[Yetos]

Still i don`t understand the connection. If you try to explain better your point, will be very helpful for all of us.

As I do not understand the 'mysteries' the 'curius' and the 'coincidences'
All hoax and facultated arguements some post 3-4 and more times,

just to make impressions of never existed 'theory'

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

the term is clear
Α+μαλθεια
Negative a+
PIE *(s)mel-

You may have heard that they don't reconstruct an /a/ sound in PIE (whether that is right or wrong is another question and off topic)


/a/ in Greek can descend from a 'laryngeal' *h2 (a 'pharyngeal fricative' according to some) like in the case of ΑΜΕΛΓΩ or from an *n̥, like here, if the etymology you posted is correct etc.


But I think that ultimately *h₂melǵ- (to milk) can be related to the words that descend from a reconstructed *(s)mel- (soften?)


αμέλγω in Attic Greek apart from 'to milk' had meanings like press out, squeeze out, suck, to drink, sip, imbibe

>>>
Ι don't know where a word μάλθος with a meaning (έλλειψη, υστέρηση) is attested. Ι don't say that it doesn't exist but can you find a text with that word? (For example I know that μαλθάσσω exist in Αeschylus, but they aren't semantically close)

 

[Milan.M]

You may have heard that they don't reconstruct an /a/ sound in PIE (whether that is right or wrong is another question and off topic)
/a/ in Greek can descend from a 'laryngeal' *h2 (a 'pharyngeal fricative' according to some) like in the case of ΑΜΕΛΓΩ or from an *n̥, like here, if the etymology you posted is correct etc.
But I think that ultimately *h₂melǵ- (to milk) can be related to the words that descend from a reconstructed *(s)mel- (soften?)
αμέλγω in Attic Greek apart from 'to milk' had meanings like press out, squeeze out, suck, to drink, sip, imbibe
>>>
Ι don't know where a word μάλθος with a meaning (έλλειψη, υστέρηση) is attested. Ι don't say that it doesn't exist but can you find a text with that word? (For example I know that μαλθάσσω exist in Αeschylus, but they aren't semantically close)

You seem to have knowledge on linguistics, however the Albanian word "ambel", amel etc does not descent from h2melg "milk" but from reconstructed *h₂emros (“sour”), cognate to Sanskrit "amla" sour,Dutch "amper" the same.

 

[Johane Derite]

You seem to have knowledge on linguistics, however the Albanian word "ambel", amel etc does not descent from h2melg "milk" but from reconstructed *h₂emros (“sour”), cognate to Sanskrit "amla" sour,Dutch "amper" the same.

Sour is "Tharptë/tharbtë/thartë" in Alb.

Song: "Sweet and Sour"

 

[Milan.M]

Sour is "Tharptë/tharbtë/thartë" in Alb.
Song: "Sweet and Sour"

Word can take many forms in daughter languages,related words are those mentioned.I see that "ambel",amel has also a meaning of sweet but cognate Italian "amaro" has meaning of bitter,Sanskrit "amla" sour etc,this words does not descent from the same root as "milk" in English for example which is very obvious,as Papadimitriou compared if I'm not mistaken.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

You seem to have knowledge on linguistics, however the Albanian word "ambel", amel etc does not descent from h2melg "milk" but from reconstructed *h₂emros (“sour”), cognate to Sanskrit "amla" sour,Dutch "amper" the same.

I avoided saying anything about Albanian words.

In a previous post I just said that h₂melǵ-eia would give ΑΜAΛΘΕΙΑ in a hypothetical language that shifted h2 > a (like Greek), e > a (at least in some cases) and ǵ > tʰ

In Albanian we see a shift ǵ > ð.
/ð/ and /tʰ/, though are actually quite different
Both are dentals but:
-One is a fricative, the other a stop
-One is voiced, the other isn't
-One isn't aspirated the other is

[We have to note that /tʰ/ shifted to /θ/ ultimately in Greek but linguists wouldn't consider that important. Many features of modern languages aren't taken into account because they are considered modern developments. The thing is that this isn't exactly true. But I don't want to talk about that.
Personally, I don't believe that ancient Attic Greek Θ was pronounced as /tʰ/ but I assumed that the traditional view is correct.]

In some way Albanian proves though that a shift from a reconstructed ǵ to a dental of some short is at least possible.

 

[Yetos]

You may have heard that they don't reconstruct an /a/ sound in PIE (whether that is right or wrong is another question and off topic)


/a/ in Greek can descend from a 'laryngeal' *h2 (a 'pharyngeal fricative' according to some) like in the case of ΑΜΕΛΓΩ or from an *n̥, like here, if the etymology you posted is correct etc.


But I think that ultimately *h₂melǵ- (to milk) can be related to the words that descend from a reconstructed *(s)mel- (soften?)


αμέλγω in Attic Greek apart from 'to milk' had meanings like press out, squeeze out, suck, to drink, sip, imbibe

>>>
Ι don't know where a word μάλθος with a meaning (έλλειψη, υστέρηση) is attested. Ι don't say that it doesn't exist but can you find a text with that word? (For example I know that μαλθάσσω exist in Αeschylus, but they aren't semantically close)

I see your point,

so *h2melg --> (αμελγω) -> αρμεγω

plz notice υστερον, υστερια and υστερησις, although seem to have same root, different result.

lack of something is υστερησις, αδυναμια weakness, but υστερησις might be στερησις can be rooted from στειρος or oposite?.

Anyway,
you have found the PIE linguistic meaning


using Grimm's law back I find possible Meld in Germanic

consider ι as Djot (γ)ιωττα and back the *CRH I have Θ -> D

i do not know how Sansqrit Mardat goes,

but seems I have Meld- and Mald-

offcourse I can be wrong

but either h2melg either (s)mel is the same

 

[Johane Derite]

If you see the Dardanians of Anatolia match the Dardanians of kososvo then history changes ........

[FONT=&quot]Ilus[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]/ˈiːloʊs/[/FONT][FONT=&quot]; [/FONT]Greek[FONT=&quot]: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ἶλος[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT]Ilos) is the name of several mythological persons associated directly or indirectly with Troy.

Ilus (son of Dardanus)
Ilus (son of Tros, grandfather of Priam, King of Troy)
Ilus (son of Mermerus)

There is no greek etymology for this. Yll as i stated before simply means star in Albanian. It is a very common name from the most northern Albanian territories to the most southern.

It also a term of endearment when used for children or admiration for adults (you're a star).

This is for example Ylli Baka, a southern Albanian singer:

This is for example, the word "ylli" being used as a euphemism for children as a sign of affection/endearment. Countless videos of cute babies and such titled "ylli i vogel" (little star).

I'm showing this to demonstrate that this is not an artifical construction of mine, but rather something that is organically present in the Albanian culture and language as both a name and euphemism for adoration.


The Dardania in Kosovo had 2 kings named Bardylis (no etymology is given for this, Bardhë means White in Albanian. White-Star is not a name that would not make sense).

Illyria..

 

[Johane Derite]

Also the words Troy/Troad have no explanation in Greek.

In Albanian Troje (pronounce Troye) means lands/country
In Albanian Truall means same thing in singular.



In Albanian its as common as can be.

[h=2]Albanian[edit][/h][h=5]Alternative forms[edit][/h]

• truell, *****

[h=3]Etymology[edit][/h]A variant of truaj or a derivative of terë, which explains the plural "troje".^[1]. Alternatively V.Orel relates it to Latin trībulum 'thresher', but the connection between the meaning 'thresher' and 'estate' is not explained.^[2].
[h=3]Noun[edit][/h]truall m (indefinite plural troje, definite singular trualli, definite plural trojet)

1. land, estate, country

[h=5]Related terms[edit][/h]

• truaj
• terë
• trokë
• vis

[h=3]References[edit][/h]

• ^ Çabej, E. 1976a. Studime Gjuhësore II, Studime Etimologjike në Fushë të Shqipes, A-O. Prishtinë: Rilindja, p.196-197
• ^ A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language, V.Orel, Koninklijke Brill ,Leiden 2000, p.466

 

[Johane Derite]

I'm responding to yetos' comment here so as not to clog the Minoan/Mycenean thread. This is his comment:

Since When? and Why?

Plz help me understand,
Albanians Are Illyrians? or Myceneans? or Thracians? or Troyans (Dardanians)

can you at least tell me
what are Albanians?

cause I think Albanians all they to do
is to be at the epoicenter,
That Are Myceneans,
That Are Troyans
That Are Illyrians
That are Messapians
That Are Thracians
What else I forgot something?

I do not think Albanians had to do with Myceneans,
not even a pinhead space.

The entire point is that we don't know from where Albanians come from, and so we need to solve this.

For any inconsistency or thing I find that seems interesting to explore you get hyper and start projecting your paranoiac hysterics on to me.

I say that one word is similar, and for you that means I am subscribing 100% Albanians being Trojans etc.

Illyrians and Dardanians are related. Dardanians of Kosovo and Dardanians of Troy are most likely related, Dardanus is said to have gone from Arcadia(Peloponnese[FONT=&quot])[/FONT] to Samothrace and then founded Troy.

if Dardanians in Kosovo and Dardanians of Troy are two seperate peoples prove that. It doesn't make sense two same named people being right there so close but that can obviously still be the case. Prove it though.

In Book III of Virgil's Aeneid, the displaced hero (Aeneas) arrives at BUTRINT (South Albania) and remarks: “I saw before me Troy in miniature / A slender copy of our massive tower.” Butrint was colonized by the Romans under Julius Caesar in 44 B.C., and later occupied by the Byzantine, Venetian, and Ottoman Empires. These layers of civilization were rediscovered by Italian archaeologist Luigi Ugolini in the 1920's, who unearthed an amphitheater dating from the fourth century B.C. "

If this is true then a Trojan was in South Albania. Did he sail around or go through the balkans and leave Dardanians in Kosovo? Or is it all just myth.

Science is a creative venture. This is what you dont seem to understand. By creating new connections between un-explored tangents interesting things can emerge.

If Albanians are from Illyrians than they are immediately connected to Dardanians, which means Trojans, but also Messapians, who were Illyrian tribe.

And for those on here who don't read Albanian related threads and so therefore wont see this comment:

Albanians are persistent for a reason. Those who weren't now speak Greek, Turkish or South Slavic.

There will soon come a day when you will be glad of our persistence, but that day is not yet here.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

I had written a long post and I lost it. First of all I believe that Dardanians of Balkans and Dardanians of Troy were related. That can't be a coincidence. How that is interpreted is a different question.

Apart from that you reminded me the following. Τhe word for sun in Modern Greek is ˈiʎo̞s < ˈiljo̞s ̠, ˈilio̞s̠

In ancient Greek it is:

• Attic Greek: ἥλιος (hḗlios)
• Cretan Greek: ἀβέλιος (abélios) {imho pronounced aβélios)
• Doric, Aeolic, Arcadocypriot Greek: ἀέλιος (aélios)
• Doric Greek: ἅλιος (hálios)
• Homeric Greek: ἠέλιος (ēélios)

The reconstructed proto-Greek is hāwélios, which is said that comes from a 'later Proto-Indo-European *sāwélios

In Itally there were speakers of Sabellic (Osco-Umbrians), whose dialect by the way had some similarites with Aeolic Greek and P-Celtic languages like Welsh (the shift of labiovelars to labials which is thought to have happened independently)

If we assume that their ethnonym could have meant something like 'Sun-people', we can consider the possibility that this was true about Aeolians too. Maybe the ethnonym 'Hellenes', and ethnonyms of other Indo-European groups can be explained in a similar way.

In Anatolia there was certainly a city called Wilusa / Wilusiya, which is often thought to have been the Ίλιον (Ilion) of ancient sources.

 

[Johane Derite]

I had written a long post and I lost it. First of all I believe that Dardanians of Balkans and Dardanians of Troy were related. That can't be a coincidence. How that is interpreted is a different question.
Apart from that you reminded me the following. Τhe word for sun in Modern Greek is ˈiʎo̞s < ˈiljo̞s ̠, ˈilio̞s̠
In ancient Greek it is:

• Attic Greek: ἥλιος (hḗlios)
• Cretan Greek: ἀβέλιος (abélios) {imho pronounced aβélios)
• Doric, Aeolic, Arcadocypriot Greek: ἀέλιος (aélios)
• Doric Greek: ἅλιος (hálios)
• Homeric Greek: ἠέλιος (ēélios)

The reconstructed proto-Greek is hāwélios, which is said that comes from a 'later Proto-Indo-European *sāwélios
In Itally there were speakers of Sabellic (Osco-Umbrians), whose dialect by the way had some similarites with Aeolic Greek and P-Celtic languages like Welsh (the shift of labiovelars to labials which is thought to have happened independently)
If we assume that their ethnonym could have meant something like 'Sun-people', we can consider the possibility that this was true about Aeolians too. Maybe the ethnonym 'Hellenes', and ethnonyms of other Indo-European groups can be explained in a similar way.
In Anatolia there was certainly a city called Wilusa / Wilusiya, which is often thought to have been the Ίλιον (Ilion) of ancient sources.

This makes quite a lot of sense to me considering the solar cults and such. In some dialects "yll" is pronounced "hyll" in Albanian.
And the word "Hyj" means "God" or "Gods" but not quite, its more like "Divinities" or "Divinity" or "deity/deities"

The solar cult thing is attested to in the word for god "perendi" in alb:

Alternative forms[edit]

• perundi
• (Gheg) pereni [peɾeni] ^[1]
• (Arvanite) περεντή (perëndi) [peɾəndi] ^[2]

Etymology[edit]

Disputed. Different interpretations have been proposed:

1. Derived from perëndoj (“to set (of the sun”), which might be borrowed from Latin parentare (“to bring a sacrifice (to the dead), to satisfy”)^[3]
2. Latin imperantem (“ruling”) (Alb. dielli perëndon "the sun sets", perhaps ultimately a calque on Greek ο ήλιος βασιλεύει "the sun sets", literally "the sun reigns").^[4]
3. Compound of *perën from earlier *perun, identical with Lithuanian Perkūnas, Proto-Slavic *Perunъ 'god of lightning' + *di from Proto-Indo-European *deywós (“god, deity”), thus originally meaning 'god Perën/Perun'.
4. Others see a connection to Indo-European *per(-k^wu)- "oak god" or "thunder god" by possible association (see Perkwunos)

Noun[edit]

perëndi f (indefinite plural perëndi, definite singular perëndia, definite plural perënditë)

1. (religion) God
2. god, deity

Synonyms[edit]

• hyj
• zot

References[edit]

• ^ Fialuur i voghel Sccyp e ltinisct (Small Dictionary of Albanian and Latin), page 98, by P. Jak Junkut, 1895, Sckoder
• ^ Λεξικόν της Ρωμαϊκοις και Αρβανητηκής Απλής (Lexicon of the simple Romaic and Arbanitic language), page 117 & 84, by Markos Botsaris
• ^ If this view is correct, it might point to an albanian solar cult -- Orel Vladimir - A concise historical grammar of the albanian language, p. 263, Brill, 2000
• ^ Orel Vladimir - Albanian etymological dictionary, pp. 315-316, Brill, 1998

 

[Yetos]

I had written a long post and I lost it. First of all I believe that Dardanians of Balkans and Dardanians of Troy were related. That can't be a coincidence. How that is interpreted is a different question.

Apart from that you reminded me the following. Τhe word for sun in Modern Greek is ˈiʎo̞s < ˈiljo̞s ̠, ˈilio̞s̠

In ancient Greek it is:

• Attic Greek: ἥλιος (hḗlios)
• Cretan Greek: ἀβέλιος (abélios) {imho pronounced aβélios)
• Doric, Aeolic, Arcadocypriot Greek: ἀέλιος (aélios)
• Doric Greek: ἅλιος (hálios)
• Homeric Greek: ἠέλιος (ēélios)

The reconstructed proto-Greek is hāwélios, which is said that comes from a 'later Proto-Indo-European *sāwélios

In Itally there were speakers of Sabellic (Osco-Umbrians), whose dialect by the way had some similarites with Aeolic Greek and P-Celtic languages like Welsh (the shift of labiovelars to labials which is thought to have happened independently)

If we assume that their ethnonym could have meant something like 'Sun-people', we can consider the possibility that this was true about Aeolians too. Maybe the ethnonym 'Hellenes', and ethnonyms of other Indo-European groups can be explained in a similar way.

In Anatolia there was certainly a city called Wilusa / Wilusiya, which is often thought to have been the Ίλιον (Ilion) of ancient sources.

hm

some forms/compination of *w* turn to B in Germanic languages,
and that is the strange with the Cretan Abelios,
but still abelios has lost the S infront,
so if Sabellic ments what Selloi,
the turn of *w* to B as also the keep of S shows Germanic influence,

anyway the only strange is that in Cretan Greek shows B.


I think it like telling that Danes and Danaoi are the same,
or Saxons and Achaioi and Czechs,
which I do not think
like Pelasgians and Polish is the same.

while in case of Walloon Wallach Walles (All Celtic) have the same meaning of speaker, yield κελητας

 

[Johane Derite]

Valone (Vlorë, Albania) Plazza del comande construzione interrotta del minareto a causa di un nido di cicogna (uccello sacro Albanese)

"Il minareto non finito causa il nido della cicogna. Sulla cima la cicogna col nido."


1916, the construction of a Minaret in Vlorë, Albania is halted due to a Stork building its nest on it.

Rivista mensile del Corriere della Sera (1916 nov, Fascicolo 11)

Link: https://www.ebay.it/itm/ALBANIA-Val...121919?hash=item545c7fa47f:g:Xc4AAOSwn4da9u3R

 

[Johane Derite]

@A. Papadimitrou I just thought this one, could this be a possibility:

( The J in Albanian is pronounced like the Y in You )

Could instead the Albanian word "Janë" be cognate with the greek -Ωn suffix?

The a in Janë is pronounced like the u in Sun.


ALB = ENG

Jam = I am
Jeni = You(plural, something like Y'all) are
Jemi = We are
Janë = They are
Jonë = Ours (Belonging to us)

So could "Lychnid-iΩn" be "Of the lake they are"

The reason i put "of the Lake" instead of just Lake is because the masculine noun in Contemporary Albanian has the "it" suffix added to it in the ablative and dative definite singular:

Liqen = Lake
Liqeni = The Lake
Liqenit = Of the Lake

So the d in Lychnid could possible be the suffix "it"?

As in:

Liqenit Janë = Of the lake they are

The root of the word Janë is Jam (I am) which is cognate with the Greek:


LINK: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/jam#Albanian

jam



Etymology[edit]

From Proto-Albanian *es-mi, from Proto-Indo-European *h₁ésmi (“I am, I exist”), identical with Ancient Greek εἰμί (eimí), Sanskrit अस्मि (ásmi), English am. Aorist qeshë from Proto-Indo-European *kwel- (“to turn, revolve”), with a semantic development similar to Germanic *werdan (“to become”), from Proto-Indo-European *wert- (“to turn”)^[1].
Pronunciation[edit]

• IPA^(key): /jam/

Verb[edit]

jam (first-person singular past tense qeshë, participle qenë)

1. to be

Related terms[edit]

• është

References[edit]

• ^ Orel, Vladimir (1998), “jam”, in Albanian Etymological Dictionary, Leiden, Boston, Köln: Brill, page 156

 

[Johane Derite]

This is the most out there speculation since now on the Troy angle (feel free to shut me down if its blatantly wrong) : Why did Priam become Priam only once he became king?

His name was originally Podarkes/Podarces but he became "Priam" once he was on the throne of Troy.

Maybe "Priam" must have meant something like "Pope" in that who ever ascends to the throne becomes the Pope.

Pope comes from Latin: papa from Greek: πάππας pappas, a child's word for "father."

Could Priam have had its origins in old word formed from roots from a Trojan dialect?

In Albanian the word "Prij" means "I lead, command" in the first person. (J is pronounced like "y" in yay)

Prijës = "Leader, King, Commander, etc."
Prijësit = "Leaders, Kings, Commanders, etc"

Jam = I-am (same indo european root as in english and ancient greek εἰμί (eimí) _

Prijës-Jam = I am King/Chief/Leader/etc

The s could have become more silent until it was lost and simply became Priam?


Prij



Albanian

Etymology

From Proto-Indo-European *pr̥H-e/o-s (“before, in front”). Related to para.

Verb

prij (first-person singular past tense prijta, participle prirë)

1. I lead, command

Derived terms

• prijës
• prirje

Related terms

• prehem
• para

Prijës



Albanian

Etymology[

From prij.

Noun

prijës

1. Chieftain
2. Commander

 

[Johane Derite]

This one is a reach but nonetheless an interesting coincidence if nothing more:

Why did Paris of Troy also have two names? He was Alexandros/Alexander but also called Paris?



[h=1]Parë[/h][h=2]Albanian[/h]

< 0th	1st	2nd >
Cardinal : një Ordinal : parë

Albanian ordinal numbers

[h=3]Etymology[/h]
From Proto-Albanian *paru, from Proto-Indo-European *prh2-u- (“first”). Compare Sanskrit [FONT=&quot]पूर्व (pū́rva-, “former, front”), Old Church Slavonic prьvъ (prĭvŭ, “first”), Tocharian B parwe.

[/FONT]
[h=4]Adjective[/h]
i parë m (feminine e para, masculine plural të parë, feminine plural të para)

1. (ordinal) first
2. main, principal, primary, chief

[h=5]Related terms[/h]

• para

 

[Wright]

think I've read about this before but still very interesting, both Priam and Paris make sense in Albanian as leaders

 

[Yetos]

Sufix -ων -ΩΝ is Possesive case

Means Belong to, property of the,

like Rome, Rome's, suffix -s

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

This is the most out there speculation since now on the Troy angle (feel free to shut me down if its blatantly wrong) : Why did Priam become Priam only once he became king?

[...]

Could Priam have had its origins in old word formed from roots from a Trojan dialect?

In Albanian the word "Prij" means "I lead, command" in the first person. (J is pronounced like "y" in yay)

Prijës = "Leader, King, Commander, etc."
Prijësit = "Leaders, Kings, Commanders, etc"

Jam = I-am (same indo european root as in english and ancient greek εἰμί (eimí) _

Prijës-Jam = I am King/Chief/Leader/etc

[...]

This is interesting overall but the thing that is unlikely is that the verb 'to be' existed in the personal name. You should search for Indo-European or {Albanian (or proto-Albanian)} suffixes that make sense.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Categoryroto-Indo-European_suffixes

You should take into account how words were formed. What suffixes were used to form nouns from verbs or from adjectives etc
If you connect it to a word like prij (the word from which it descends because languages change) and an accepted IE (or proto-Albanian) suffix what you say will become more convincing.

Also there is the folk etymology which exist in the Wikipedia article. (which is not necessarily correct of course)

And the fact that there is a name Piyama-Radu attested in Hittite texts and some think that this person is the same as the Priamos of the Greek sources (although that isn't necessarily correct either)

Also note. There is also the Latin word primusthe Lithuanian word pirmas (=first)