The enigma of G-PF3345 (U1, CTS342 and L497)

I'm not sure when or where Bell Beaker people split away from other Yamnayan-related R1b groups in Europe. I'm guessing it occurred at some point between 4,000 BC and the collapse of the Cucuteni culture and its replacement by the Yamnayan culture (3,300 BC); R1b-L51 Bell Beaker shows clear affinity with G2a-PF3345 Cucuteni remnants, and only minor admixture with other European Neolithic groups.

Would it be fair to ask you what the other R1b groupings are?

First, we have the Bell Beaker grouping, which appears to be R1b-L51, with R1b-U152 as the leading branch, both among Italics and Celts (please correct me if I am wrong). Affiliated with this Bell Beaker group are the other Cucuteni remnant groups, G2a-L497, G2a-CTS342, E-V13, and certain subclades of I2a (do we know which subclades?).

Aside from this group, what are the other R1b groupings? Which R1b groupings are considered "core" Yamnaya?


Wherever Indo-European originated, it looks like it was spread quite widely by different R1b and R1a populations, and not just Yamnayans.

And therefore we can hypothesize that Italic & Celtic languages are not descendent from Yamnayan language, but from an ancestral tongue more broadly spoken by all R1b & R1a peoples. Further, proto-Italic and proto-Celtic probably began to develop within the Cuceteni cultural matrix. This must surely also have some implications for the Romanian language, which is perhaps not as indebted to Latin as imagined. Of course I am speculating very freely here
 
Would it be fair to ask you what the other R1b groupings are?
In early Europe, I think mainly Z2103.

First, we have the Bell Beaker grouping, which appears to be R1b-L51, with R1b-U152 as the leading branch, both among Italics and Celts (please correct me if I am wrong). Affiliated with this Bell Beaker group are the other Cucuteni remnant groups, G2a-L497, G2a-CTS342, E-V13, and certain subclades of I2a (do we know which subclades?).
I-M26 and I-M223, at least. These were probably picked up in Central Europe when Cucuteni and L51 people moved West around the mid 4th millennium BC.

Aside from this group, what are the other R1b groupings? Which R1b groupings are considered "core" Yamnaya?
Core Yamnaya is considered R1b-Z2103.
I would speculate it probably also included R1b-V88, I2a-CTS10057, R1b-M73 and R1a-Z93.

And therefore we can hypothesize that Italic & Celtic languages are not descendent from Yamnayan language, but from an ancestral tongue more broadly spoken by all R1b & R1a peoples. Further, proto-Italic and proto-Celtic probably began to develop within the Cuceteni cultural matrix. This must surely also have some implications for the Romanian language, which is perhaps not as indebted to Latin as imagined. Of course I am speculating very freely here
I don't know much about ancient languages. Perhaps there was an element of bilingualism in the population? Italic and Celtic are Indo-European (probably R1b-influenced), yet one branch of L51 still speaks Basque, which some have related to Georgian (the main development cradle for G-U1)(i.e. both of these languages could have ancient roots in G-PF3345).
 
There isn't any enigma. Just like other pre-Indo-European haplos, they slowly faded because Indo-Euros had priority access to women. This also explains why there is a surge of E in Southeast Europe compared to the rest, given that it is a Neolithic lineage too. Probably, like seen in the local "Scythian" from Moldova, E-V13 lineages were introduced together with the spread of Indo-Euros, likely acculturated at that point. We know from Myceneans that J2a1 came with them and they represent another Indo-Euro folk in the Balkans. J2b is probably associated with a migration from the steppes too, but that still remains to be proven.
 
There isn't any enigma. Just like other pre-Indo-European haplos, they slowly faded because Indo-Euros had priority access to women.
There is an enigma. Unlike other G lineages, this one didn't slowly fade, but flourished, and still flourishes.
 
Hi I'm new to eupedia and genetics in general. I found all of your comments very interesting to read.

Si I'm French of Burgundian descent on my father's side, unfortunately I used myheritagedna and the lack of information was pretty annoying.
So I uploaded my raw data to several websites (I used admixture studio and gedmatch too, amongst others...) so I guess I am pretty much aware about the caucasian-celtic migrations from bronze age. Even if I'm quite lost as being told I had a few gedrosian/east european/slavic matches or else.

But I truly have no clue about the results I got from morleydna, is this website accurate ?
I got G2a3b1a G-L140 (G-PF3331, G-PF3337) on the experimental tree.

Thanks for any future answers from you guys, help me step out of the mist.
 
Hi I'm new to eupedia and genetics in general. I found all of your comments very interesting to read.

Si I'm French of Burgundian descent on my father's side, unfortunately I used myheritagedna and the lack of information was pretty annoying.
So I uploaded my raw data to several websites (I used admixture studio and gedmatch too, amongst others...) so I guess I am pretty much aware about the caucasian-celtic migrations from bronze age. Even if I'm quite lost as being told I had a few gedrosian/east european/slavic matches or else.

But I truly have no clue about the results I got from morleydna, is this website accurate ?
I got G2a3b1a G-L140 (G-PF3331, G-PF3337) on the experimental tree.

Thanks for any future answers from you guys, help me step out of the mist.
If you're G-L140, you are quite likely to be PF3345. Do you have STR readings?
 
Hi, I got these if you want (both myheritagedna and converted to 23&me raw data)
www109.zippyshare. com/v/jlAdVxqz/file.html (take off spaces)
No idea how to get those STR readings I'm kind of a newbie.
Thank you very much for your time, have a nice weekend.
 
A scenario where IE Bronze Age R1b invaders massacred the G2a's may only apply who were part of the earlier migrations from Anatolian where the L497 subclade who had a "late start" up the Balkans and the Danubian route were the exception. A clue in favor of the assimilation in my opinion is that the most ancient L497 sample we have is from the Baden culture dated 3300-2850 BCE and found in Budakalász-Luppa csárda Hungary. The map comparing R1b with L497 distribution patterns discussed in another thread, makes sense in light of how highest the variance would be where L497 subclades spent the most time and really started exploding while the higher frequencies are due to micro areas of up to 80% in certain Alpine valleys. If L497 was relatively uncommon say just east of the Alps, but then during the Bronze age assimilated with R1b it would make sense that the past almost 5,000 years has led to a greater variance north into mainland Europe.
 
A scenario where IE Bronze Age R1b invaders massacred the G2a's may only apply who were part of the earlier migrations from Anatolian where the L497 subclade who had a "late start" up the Balkans and the Danubian route were the exception. A clue in favor of the assimilation in my opinion is that the most ancient L497 sample we have is from the Baden culture dated 3300-2850 BCE and found in Budakalász-Luppa csárda Hungary. The map comparing R1b with L497 distribution patterns discussed in another thread, makes sense in light of how highest the variance would be where L497 subclades spent the most time and really started exploding while the higher frequencies are due to micro areas of up to 80% in certain Alpine valleys. If L497 was relatively uncommon say just east of the Alps, but then during the Bronze age assimilated with R1b it would make sense that the past almost 5,000 years has led to a greater variance north into mainland Europe.
Could be. Although I wonder whether much of the assimilation occurred before the R1b invaders moved into West/Central Europe - there are also R1b-M269 parallels in other locations with PF3345 subclades that branched apart from each other before the Neolithic began (CTS342 in Italy, U1 in the Western Caucasus). Like R1b-M269, each of these subclades was pretty successful, unlike most other branches of haplogroup G. Looks too much of a coincidence to me.
 
Pip was banned ???!!!

I will be the first to admit that 75% of the comments on Eupedia are over my head, but still, I found him to be a brilliant (if rather contrarian) contributor. And as can be gleaned from this thread, I was happy to hear his insights, even if not the gospel truth
 

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