The genetic history of Ice Age Europe

[Silesian]

Do not use Ftdna map...........it does not even cover the Birth of R haplogroup in south-east Asia on the Karafet papers of 2014 and 2015

[/IMG]

Here are some positions of R and R1b, I quickly made up.There have been no R1b finds in any of the areas in red shown in the map above.

Els Trocs Spain-R1b

Villabruna-R1b

Armenian-R1b

Kvhalynsk Russia-R1b


Samara, Russia-R1b, close up surrounded by to many R1b-Z2103 kurgans.

 

[Silesian]

Here are some positions of R and R1b, I quickly made up.There have been no R1b finds in any of the areas in red shown in the map above.

Els Trocs Spain-R1b
View attachment 7722
Villabruna-R1b
View attachment 7723
Armenian-R1b
View attachment 7724
Kvhalynsk Russia-R1b
View attachment 7725

Samara, Russia-R1b, close up surrounded by to many R1b-Z2103 kurgans.[/QUOTE]

Malta R*

View attachment 7727

Distance and 1 possible explanation of R1b-path/ trajectory.

http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#4/49.58/59.94

 

[Tomenable]

There have been no R1b finds in any of the areas in red shown in the map above.

Actually, there have been no Y-DNA finds in any of those areas.

We do not have any samples of any haplogroup from those areas.

 

[Silesian]

Actually, there have been no Y-DNA finds in any of those areas.

We do not have any samples of any haplogroup from those areas.

Not any different than the archeological evidence of your R1b-Z2103+ copper workers, migrating from the same area. Only to bury their dead in Kurgans on top of R1b-M73 Hunter Gatherer that are 1000's of years older. The co-incidence and or luck of such a journeyYou never really elaborated on the branch of R1b that were copper workers migrating to the Steppe.Any new idea's?

Spain-I

Italy-I

Anatolia-I


Trajectory, theoretical-

Sardinia variance.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I2/

I-S6635S6685 * PF3935 * PF3918+30 SNPsformed 15600 ybp, TMRCA 10200 ybpinfo

• I-S6635*
  • id:ERS256250ITA [IT-CA]

 

[Silesian]

R1a and R1b ancient discoveries to date. Rough guideline, for R1>

 

[Alan]

I actually didn't wanted to comment on this but what the heck is going wrong with this Pax Augusta? Since I remember he goes around from thread to thread and thumbs down my comments without giving contra arguments or even commenting whatsoever what he disagrees on. Do he really has even contra arguments or does he just not like the opinion of other and even the scientific paper itself. I know truth hurts.

I am calling you out. Come and defend your opinion instead of stalking me and thumping down anything I write. This is not how you show yourself disagreeing but it merely resembles something what I would call almost tro ll ing. It doesn't seem to have to do with the opinions itself but him having some issues with me. Makes me wonder if we are dealing here with another sockpuppet of well known guy.

 

[Alan]

[/IMG]

Here are some positions of R and R1b, I quickly made up.There have been no R1b finds in any of the areas in red shown in the map above.

Els Trocs Spain-R1b
View attachment 7722
Villabruna-R1b
View attachment 7723
Armenian-R1b
View attachment 7724
Kvhalynsk Russia-R1b
View attachment 7725

Samara, Russia-R1b, close up surrounded by to many R1b-Z2103 kurgans.

Well there actually is some of the Bronze Age samples from Armenia turned up as R1b-z2103 but we don't have any Neolithic samples from that or any other region in Western Asia, only from Anatolia.

 

[LeBrok]

[/IMG]

Here are some positions of R and R1b, I quickly made up.There have been no R1b finds in any of the areas in red shown in the map above.

Els Trocs Spain-R1b

Fertile Crescent full of R1b?!!! Nonsense. First farmers EEF didn't pick it up on their way to Europe? And R1b is missing from the steppe? This map needs serious updating.

 

[Silesian]

Fertile Crescent full of R1b?!!! Nonsense. First farmers EEF didn't pick it up on their way to Europe? And R1b is missing from the steppe? This map needs serious updating.

I think Sile likes it; for some unkown reason perhaps?

Sile-Y-DNA haplogroup-T1a2b1a/Silesian Y- R1b-R1b1a1a2a2c1a

 

[Silesian]

Well there actually is some of the Bronze Age samples from Armenia turned up as R1b-z2103 but we don't have any Neolithic samples from that region, only from Anatolia.

Really which one? You mean Rise- 397? You think being so close to your theoretical homeland; we should find some in Iran highlands possibly? After all it is found as far away as Sardinia.

 

[Greying Wanderer]

Alan

Now the Steppes could also be the source but if the Steppes were the sources the authors wouldn't mention something very West Asian in their DNA that shows up in Dstats.

Thing is there's two ways round the Himalayas and so far we have data that places R1b on the steppe route. That may change but currently isn't the simplest explanation for Villabruna having ydna R1b simply that they could have been close to the border between R1b people from the mammoth steppe in the north (which included the north European plain) and WHG further south and so mixed?

And if before sailing developed the steppe route between east and west was fastest that could explain the east asian dna also.

(for example didn't the Scandinavian Motala HGs have the EDAR gene or am I remembering wrong?)

Obviously this would all change if a bunch of R1b was found further south.

 

[Sile]

Fertile Crescent full of R1b?!!! Nonsense. First farmers EEF didn't pick it up on their way to Europe? And R1b is missing from the steppe? This map needs serious updating.

R-V88 formed in southern syria and the went south into Africa via Egypt @11000 years ago .....................reaching chad in 9000 years ago ( cruciani 2010) ................why do you think R1b cannot be in the fertile crescent at 7000 years ago ( did they fly over the FC to get to the levant?)

 

[Greying Wanderer]

R-V88 formed in southern syria and the went south into Africa via Egypt @11000 years ago .....................reaching chad in 9000 years ago ( cruciani 2010) ................why do you think R1b cannot be in the fertile crescent at 7000 years ago ( did they fly over the FC to get to the levant?)

This touches on one aspect of the R1b argument imo - the people arguing aren't always talking about the same bit of R1b.

 

[LeBrok]

R-V88 formed in southern syria and the went south into Africa via Egypt @11000 years ago .....................reaching chad in 9000 years ago ( cruciani 2010) ................why do you think R1b cannot be in the fertile crescent at 7000 years ago ( did they fly over the FC to get to the levant?)

R1b would have been picked up by farmers in great numbers, the same way I2 was picked up from WHGs in Anatolia. So far all Neolithic samples from Balkans don't have R1b. If farmers EEF are from fertile crescent then R1b can't be. R1b probably just started showing up there after 7kya but not before.

 

[Silesian]

This touches on one aspect of the R1b argument imo - the people arguing aren't always talking about the same bit of R1b.

How about this one. Villabruna distance from V88 basal.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-V88/

 

[holderlin]

Here’s some over simplified conclusions:

• This explains why EHG was showing up so far away from WHG, CHG, and ENF in the stats. All that ANE represents a population that split from the paleo-euro population very early on.
• I don’t know why people are getting tangled up with the Near Eastern Allele sharing. It’s clear to me that the Villabruna population likely contributed to CHG, which contributed to other ““near-eastern/proto-ENF” populations, or, Villabruna contributed to both “near-eastern/proto-ENF” and “CHG” in separate events. What do we call the Levantine/Anatolians before they were farmers? I think the HERC2 sharing implicates the former, and this makes perfect sense for steppe/tundra HGs wondering just North of the Caucuses. The steppe lineage R1b, meaning not V-88, in Villabruna is also in support of this. I realize I will be called out on “steppe lineage R1b”, but whatever. Come at me bro. I'm only using such distinctions because V-88 is not usually associated with steppe/Europe, but I think M343 originated in Europe/steppe anyway so to me this distinction only really applies to later periods of R1b dispersal.
• Also, it looks like Villabruna had the best tools. Aurignacian->Gravettian is only after admixture with Villabruna, then to Magdalenian in El Miron, And Magdalenian->Azilian in Villabruna itself. Anything Villabruna touched seemed to develop better tools. Maybe I’m missing something but this is what I’m seeing.
• 35k year old GoyetQ116-1 was the oldest sample showing Han allele sharing. This is supportive of a very ancient dispersion of paleoeuros across the entire steppe into Siberia.
• @Tomenable I like your theory, it’s interesting. I don’t know if this affects it, but you can easily test where copper comes from and all the Khavalinsk copper comes from the Balkans. It’s not until Yamnaya proper (whatever that is) that we see it coming from the Caucuses. So earliest copper in Europe and the steppe, is European copper. And as @Silesian points out these “copper magician traders” also happen to be burying themselves like steppe people and are literally surrounded by steppe burials on all sides that have buried themselves the same way for 1000s of years.
• On a random note the Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 is likely the source of Anatolian Languages in a very early expansion. This would explain the Archaisms in Hittite, some of which are absent even in the reconstructed PIE. There was some discussion revolving around Tomenable’s R1b Bronze Magician theory, and I recall this thought being relevant.
• @Silesian that’s interesting about the diversity of basal V88 in Sardinia and taken with all the other data is very supportive of a steppe R1b origin. But this may be lost on people.

 

[Fire Haired14]

Interesting Devolpments

I'll provide more details later.

WHG has ANE-admixture
It looks like WHG is ANE+UP European. I and others thought the same when the only Upper Paleolithic European genome we had was Kostinki14. This is because Kostinki14 is closer to WHG than to ANE and ANE is closer to WHG than to Kostinki and WHG was slightly closer to ANE than to Kostinki14. This confirmed WHG was a mixture of Kostinki14-relative and ANE-relative.

CHG has ANE-admixture.
Some of us argued since the CHG genomes were published that they had lots of ANE admixture. The authors didn't do a lot of research on the relationship between CHG and other ancient genomes and simply labelled it as Basal Eurasian. It rejected the idea CHG had ANE ancestry. But, anyways CHG has lots of ANE ancestry. It also has lots of WHG-related admixture. I'm personally not sure exactly what CHG is. It might essentially be UP European-like+ANE+Basal Eurasian.

WHG/Mesolithic West-Europeans are not mostly descended of Magdalenian or Gravettian
None of our UP European genomes are the primary ancestor of WHG. Humans who lived in Central Europe and Southern Italy 30,000 years ago appear to be WHG's uncle or partial ancestor though. WHG's primary ancestors might not have been living in Western Europe till after 15,000 years ago, they could have been living in Eastern Europe or West Asia.

Humans in Russia and Turkey 8,000 years ago had WHG-admixture. Humans in Western Europe 19,000-15,000 years ago had WHG admixture.
The distinctiveness of WHG is very old. This is how we know our 30,000+ year old European genomes aren't important ancestors of WHG. WHG's distinctness already existed for the most part 30,000 years ago and those genomes don't have it.

WHG or at least very WHG-like admixture existed in Magdalenian Western Europeans 19,000-15,000 years ago. It also existed in Russia(EHG) and Turkey(EEF) 8,000 years ago. WHG might be the primary ancestor of modern Europeans and is an important ancestor of all Middle Easterners and even North Asians. Ancestry from actual Western European WHGs like Loschbour might be small though, like 20% tops(for Basque and Northern Europeans).

 

[LeBrok]

WHG/Mesolithic West-Europeans are not mostly descended of Magdalenian or Gravettian
None of our UP European genomes are the primary ancestor of WHG. Humans who lived in Central Europe and Southern Italy 30,000 years ago appear to be WHG's uncle or partial ancestor though. WHG's primary ancestors might not have been living in Western Europe till after 15,000 years ago, they could have been living in Eastern Europe or West Asia.
.

Does someone knows how much ANE is in Gravettians and Aurignacians?

 

[holderlin]

WHG has ANE-admixture

It looks like WHG is ANE+UP European. I and others thought the same when the only Upper Paleolithic European genome we had was Kostinki14. This is because Kostinki14 is closer to WHG than to ANE and ANE is closer to WHG than to Kostinki and WHG was slightly closer to ANE than to Kostinki14. This confirmed WHG was a mixture of Kostinki14-relative and ANE-relative.

Now this sounds more like what the Willerslev paper was saying.

So there's some MA-1 in Loschbour? Is it contained within "Villabruna", "Goyet", or both? I'm thinking that what you're saying is that the mesolithic Villabruna signal actually contains within it distinct WHG that shares alleles with the Near East and MA-1.

CHG has ANE-admixture.

Some of us argued since the CHG genomes were published that they had lots of ANE admixture. The authors didn't do a lot of research on the relationship between CHG and other ancient genomes and simply labelled it as Basal Eurasian. It rejected the idea CHG had ANE ancestry. But, anyways CHG has lots of ANE ancestry. It also has lots of WHG-related admixture. I'm personally not sure exactly what CHG is. It might essentially be UP European-like+ANE+Basal Eurasian.

This would account for the allele sharing in meso-Euros (WHG) and near East, assuming CHG passed it on.

WHG/Mesolithic West-Europeans are not mostly descended of Magdalenian or Gravettian

None of our UP European genomes are the primary ancestor of WHG. Humans who lived in Central Europe and Southern Italy 30,000 years ago appear to be WHG's uncle or partial ancestor though. WHG's primary ancestors might not have been living in Western Europe till after 15,000 years ago, they could have been living in Eastern Europe or West Asia.

Sounds like distinct WHG was hiding in the "villabruna" signal?

Humans in Russia and Turkey 8,000 years ago had WHG-admixture. Humans in Western Europe 19,000-15,000 years ago had WHG admixture.

The distinctiveness of WHG is very old. This is how we know our 30,000+ year old European genomes aren't important ancestors of WHG. WHG's distinctness already existed for the most part 30,000 years ago and those genomes don't have it. WHG or at least very WHG-like admixture existed in Magdalenian Western Europeans 19,000-15,000 years ago. It also existed in Russia(EHG) and Turkey(EEF) 8,000 years ago. WHG might be the primary ancestor of modern Europeans and is an important ancestor of all Middle Easterners and even North Asians. Ancestry from actual Western European WHGs like Loschbour might be small though, like 20% tops(for Basque and Northern Europeans).

First guess would be Eastern Europe

 

[holderlin]

Does someone knows how much ANE is in Gravettians and Aurignacians?

I think they pre-dated the arrival of distinct WHG, which contained ANE within it.

It seems like someone in reconciling the conclusions of the Earlier Willerslev (Kostenki14) paper with this most recent one.