The genetic origin of Daunians

[ihype02]

I think the continuity between Ancient Greeks, and Modern Greeks is there, especially for Southern Greeks. I find it odd that despite similar results for Iron Age Apulians, and Modern ones are basically just as distant if not closer, yet the authors do not suggest continuity.


IMHO, Maybe it is because Italian academics are more left-wing/woke, and have a conscious or even sub-conscious inclination to deracinate Italians from their homeland to facilitate a cosmopolitan ideal. This is purely subjective interpretation of the data; I much prefer the way someone like Lazaridis would interpret it.

Yeah, I did get what you were trying to imply.
I think there is continuity between old Greeks and modern ones, but I also think both papers were a bit extremist but in different directions.

The greatest demographic change in Greece came with Slavs, there were other people too, sure. But Slavs were by far the most numerous overall compared to Albanians, Celts etc. It's a historical fact. Even though the vast majority of Albanians in Southern Greece were in zones that were free from Slavic inclusions during the Dark Ages, like Eastern Peloponnese, Attica, Boetia and severall Aegean Islands. Which means that some zones that were less Slavicised became less populated by the late medieval times.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Man I am starting to find this insufferable. Maybe its time to use the ignore function again. Two forums I frequent now every thread is spammed by this incoherence, or even worse maliciously quoting papers, replying to oneself etc.

"iSoTOpEs sTatE DaUnIaNs wErE Liburnians" posts x10 - proceeds to quote paper on archeology/material culture and diets that has no connection with that statement.

I am not surprised though. Couple of years ago Illyrians were I2a-Din 100% according to his wiki sources. Now nope, they were Liburnians. Bruh chillax.

 

[torzio]

What are you referring to with "completely new group of DNA"?
Is there a paper that shows that a region in Italy, Vagnari, was all Greek adn "east med" (by this I understand near east, from the Levant to Anatolia)?

there are about 6 papers .....starting in 2012, 2014, 2017, 2019 and others i cannot remember

 

[torzio]

Man I am starting to find this insufferable. Maybe its time to use the ignore function again. Two forums I frequent now every thread is spammed by this incoherence, or even worse maliciously quoting papers, replying to oneself etc.

"iSoTOpEs sTatE DaUnIaNs wErE Liburnians" posts x10 - proceeds to quote paper on archeology/material culture and diets that has no connection with that statement.

I am not surprised though. Couple of years ago Illyrians were I2a-Din 100% according to his wiki sources. Now nope, they were Liburnians. Bruh chillax.

as I stated many many years ago ............I follow the roman method of...there are no Illyrians , there are dalmatians, liburnians, pannonians etc etc living in illyricum province/region of the roman empire

It would be easier for you if you think as per what the romans thought about the area

 

[Jovialis]

@Torzio

"Many people have this idea that when Rome came into an area they would boot everyone out and then import foreign slaves... but that's not what happened here. This estate relied more heavily on local populations."

 

[Leopoldo Leone]

I got it out of here

A PREVIOUSLY UNKNOWN SIEGE OF BOTROMAGNO/SILVIUM: THE EVIDENCE OF SLINGSHOTS FROM GRAVINA IN PUGLIA (PROVINCIA DI BARI, PUGLIA)


Published online by Cambridge University Press: 29 November 2019

Giuseppe Schinco and
Alastair M. Small



Of 1,257 fragments of black-gloss ware found in the surface survey of San Felice, can be classified by type and (on visual evidence) by fabric. The earliest are drinking vessels—"Ionian" type cups and "Metapontine" skyphoi—in use in the sixth century BC. During the fifth century they gave way to new types mostly made in Metapontum or Tarentum in imitation of Attic forms, especially skyphoi and jugs suitable for use in the symposium. They illustrate the hellenization of the site in this period. "Salt cellars" used in banqueting are common from the late fifth to the beginning of the third century, and show significant typological development. Some other pieces straddle the turn of the fourth/third centuries, but the absence of types most typical of the third century suggests that occupation of the site came to an end around the end of the fourth or beginning of the third century BC. Since San Felice is likely to have been a dependency of Botromagno/Silvium, which was sacked by the Romans in 306 BC, that the site was abandoned as a consequence of this event. A few later sherds are likely to be casual scatter from the Roman villa below the scarp of the plateau. In addition to its contribution to the history of the late Iron Age in this area, the study is important for understanding the background to the foundation of the villa and of the village of Vagnari situated in the valley below it.

An abandoned site isn't evidence that the whole area was depopulated of his original inhabitants and resettled by Greeks and Near Easteners: it just means that the local populations diminished, but it says nothing about a resettlement by Greeks or Near Easteners.

 

[torzio]

@Torzio

"Many people have this idea that when Rome came into an area they would boot everyone out and then import foreign slaves... but that's not what happened here. This estate relied more heavily on local populations."

The discussion we have about the Daunians is basically between you defending your plotting with Greek influence and I defending the paper in defending that their was no greek influence ...........something you have already posted

for clarity, you either need a new plot system which covers bronze-age to 200BC

or

write to the authors and ask them why there is no Greek in their paper in regards to the daunians

this back and forth is basically useless if you are attacking what is stated in the paper

 

[torzio]

@salento

Maybe your pula is

https://www.istrianet.org/istria/archeology/castellieri/nesactium/intro.htm


In the late 180s, the Histrians united under a king named Aepulo or Epulon, and attacked the new Roman colony at Aquileia. After several campaigns, the Romans invaded Histria and laid siege to Nesactium in the spring of 177 BCE. According to Livy, the first Roman commanders, Aulus Manlius Vulso and Marcus Junius, failed to take the city, but their successor, consul Gaius Claudius Pulcher, was more successful. He first redirected the river that prevented an attack from the east, allowing the hill to be stormed from a different direction. When the defenders knew that their town was about to be taken, they killed their wives and children. Still, more than 5,000 Histrians were sold as slaves. King Aepulo committed suicide.^note
Ear of a jar from Nesactium In the Roman age, the new capital of Histria was Pola (modern Pula), twelve kilometers to the west, a hillfort with a perfect harbor. Nesactium, however, remained in use, and under the Roman Empire, it was small provincial town. The old Histrian gods were still venerated – archaeologists have found altars dedicated to Eia, Trita, and “the Histrian sea and land”.

 

[torzio]

An abandoned site isn't evidence that the whole area was depopulated of his original inhabitants and resettled by Greeks and Near Easteners: it just means that the local populations diminished, but it says nothing about a resettlement by Greeks or Near Easteners.

that's what the paper says ............No Greek influence ...........so see my reply to Jovialis above

 

[Jovialis]

The discussion we have about the Daunians is basically between you defending your plotting with Greek influence and I defending the paper in defending that their was no greek influence ...........something you have already posted
for clarity, you either need a new plot system which covers bronze-age to 200BC
or
write to the authors and ask them why there is no Greek in their paper in regards to the daunians
this back and forth is basically useless if you are attacking what is stated in the paper

First of all, I don't appreciate the tone of your post in regards to mine. I was not rude to you, do not be rude to me.

Secondly, I am talking about Apulia in general, not just the Daunians. You falsely claim the population of all of Apulia was completely supplanted by the Romans with Greeks and East Med people, and offer no proof of it. In fact I have provided proof of the opposite.

Thirdly, the father of ORD001 leaves the speculation open to the idea of higher CHG people living among them, with his proclivity to Greece_N

 

[ihype02]

This is how one memeber of Anthrogenica hypothesized that native Apulians will plot and I pretty much agree with this, so I thought sharing it here.

 

[Salento]

… educated guess or not, I wouldn’t post fake PCAs, … some may assume they’re real though they’re not.

 

[Jovialis]

I personally would like to see the actual samples first hand.

At any rate, I think it is interesting to point out that Bulgarian_IA plots close to the so-called outlier Daunians:

 

[ihype02]

I personally would like to see the actual samples first hand.

At any rate, I think it is interesting to point out that Bulgarian_IA plots close to the so-called outlier Daunians

Yup, I thought about it the other day too. Here is a Bronze Age Southern Bulgarian sample in an academic PCA.

 

[Jovialis]

Yup, I thought about it the other day too. Here is a Bronze Age Southern Bulgarian sample in an academic PCA.

Here is the PCA from the study on the Genomics of Southeastern Europe. For some reason it seems to project them further east, but I am not sure why that is so. Lazaridis et al. 2017 projects Mycenaeans further east, right on top of South Italians. Though most other PCAs project them further west.

 

[torzio]

First of all, I don't appreciate the tone of your post in regards to mine. I was not rude to you, do not be rude to me.
Secondly, I am talking about Apulia in general, not just the Daunians. You falsely claim the population of all of Apulia was completely supplanted by the Romans with Greeks and East Med people, and offer no proof of it. In fact I have provided proof of the opposite.
Thirdly, the father of ORD001 leaves the speculation open to the idea of higher CHG people living among them, with his proclivity to Greece_N

and neither was I rude to you

direct yes, rude no


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...in-of-Daunians?p=628068&viewfull=1#post628068

 

[torzio]

all these plotting scenarios are only based on the samples used and samples avoided.......looks like the many "doctored" admixture tests in vahauduo ..........selected samples to suit ones needs

 

[Jovialis]

all these plotting scenarios are only based on the samples used and samples avoided.......looks like the many "doctored" admixture tests in vahauduo ..........selected samples to suit ones needs

I hope you are not implying that the PCAs I am using are doctored in anyway. It is a fairly comprehensive catalog of ancient DNA samples from accross all the significant studies from the Reich lab's list. Not to mention the HGDP samples along with the regular Dodecad Globe 13 samples.

Here they are with the Mycenaens.

 

[torzio]

we should look at the confirmed Isotope union of Daunians with Dalmatians/Liburnians

as per the 2 papers from 2018 and 2020

https://dspace.uevora.pt/rdpc/bitst...ler-Stable_carbon_and_nitrogen_isotope....pdf






all these agree with the paper of the origin of the Daunians

 

[Jovialis]

Here is a PCA with all of the relevant samples from Antonio et al. 2019, as well as Bulgaria_IA, and Mycenaeans.