The genetic origin of Daunians

You are assuming Armenians are some kind of pure relics for the broader area and that they are relevant for Pontians native part , don't you know already that similar profiles can be created/end up plotting together through different processes ?like for example Aegean Islanders & Ashkenazis ? Going by your logic , Ashkenazis must be converted Aegeans or is it the opposite?
Bad distance btw

No I was not assuming that. Read again, I was showing that they are not 30% shifted away from Armenians to shows Bekas that his calculation is not accurate. Please read again.
 
Dude, all Southern Caucasians have overlapping genetic components just like you Balkanites do, and the reason being is that they all essentially derive ancestries from Kura-Araxes, Maikop and other groups in the area. I told you Pontics are Myceneans + local Colchis, do you know who ancient Colchians were? Do you know why Greeks went there? Are you familiar with the importance of the area in the ancient Greek world, the myth of Jason and the Argonauts and the ancient tragedy of Medea by Euripides?

Do you have an ancient Colchis sample? No? Neither do I, that's why I use other proxies in the geographical area, like Georgians, Armenians, Maikop, Kura-araxes, etc.

And they all pass showing 60-70% "native" South Caucasus and 30-40% Mycenean.

And you bring me those laughable PCAs as an answer in order to tell me it's barely 10-15%, when I provide you with proof it's not. And, by the way, since you use 25 dimensions in your PCA, flip the dimensions and show us how the PCA looks like from other "angles", ie using other dimensions in the X and Y axis, not just the one that suits your little fairytale.

You Albanian guys are something else, proclaimed experts on all things ancient Greek, too bad it's all BS.

You are entitled to your wrong opinion that is fine. Let's not derail this thread any more.
 
No I was not assuming that. Read again, I was showing that they are not 30% shifted away from Armenians to shows Bekas that his calculation is not accurate. Please read again.


The run with the Armenian sample in the Reich dataset has a big standard-error, so it's not a very good result, I told you in my original post. The Armenians have too much Steppe to transform into Pontic Greeks all of the sudden. Where did all that Steppe admixture go? And where did all that Armenian R1b disappear, it's their dominant marker, Pontic Greeks barely have any R1b. It's a nonsensical argument.

Also, I used your preferred method of analysis, and even your G25 corroborates my above results, so really, what are you on about, dude?

Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 2.5329% / 0.02532875
63.2RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
36.8GRC_Mycenaean
 
The run with the Armenian sample in the Reich dataset has a big standard-error, so it's not a very good result, I told you in my original post. The Armenians have too much Steppe to transform into Pontic Greeks all of the sudden. Where did all that Steppe admixture go? And where did all that Armenian R1b disappear, it's their dominant marker, Pontic Greeks barely have any R1b. It's a nonsensical argument.

Also, I used your preferred method of analysis, and even your G25 corroborates my above results, so really, what are you on about, dude?
Wait until we have Iron Ages natives of Pontus so you can use it then.
 
You are entitled to your wrong opinion that is fine. Let's not derail this thread any more.

When you attack an ethnic group like Pontic Greeks that have nothing to do with you or your ilk, you should be ready to defend your nonsense, or risk getting exposed like you just have.

You're welcome.
 
When you attack an ethnic group like Pontic Greeks that have nothing to do with you or your ilk, you should be ready to defend your nonsense, or risk getting exposed like you just have.
You're welcome.
Aww you did a great job defending your case.

Here is an "attack" to the Turks.

main-qimg-377d82d409daeeb500a27336716259b5
 
Using a very distant northeastern source and Middle Bronze Age sample from Balkans. 90% native, I'll take it.
Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.8596% / 0.01859614
47.8GRC_Logkas_MBA
41.2BGR_IA
11.0Russian_Leshukonsky
 
Using a very distant northeastern source and Middle Bronze Age sample from Balkans. 90% native, I'll take it.
Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.8596% / 0.01859614
47.8GRC_Logkas_MBA
41.2BGR_IA
11.0Russian_Leshukonsky


Your model fails qpAdm (100%-400% std. errors), even if I just use Logkas and BGR_IA without the Russian reference (20% std. errors). It goes to show that you can mix and match whatever you want in that smartPCA and get the result you want.

Check my right pops, if you think I am failing it on purpose, and tell me what to swap but I don't think you can make it work but of course I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

You can see all your so called expertise on archeogenetics is based on fake principles and methodology.


qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1745086563
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
Albanian.DG
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG
Russian.DG
Bulgaria_IA

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 11 chisq: 7.503 tail: 0.756986369 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -7.503 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.721 1.351
China_Tianyuan 1.077 2.082
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.135 0.406
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.397 0.634
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.396 0.033
Turkey_N_published -1.850 0.561
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.421 -0.508
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.528 -0.062
Papuan.DG 0.658 0.361
Israel_Natufian_published -1.309 0.997
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.468 0.459
ONG.SG 0.934 -0.832
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.296 -1.915
A:
scale 1063.244 3571.596
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG -0.092 -0.724
Russian.DG 1.541 0.264
Bulgaria_IA -0.785 1.551


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 3 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 7.503 taildiff: 0.756986369
B:
scale 2249.860 662.058 1051.142
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.023 0.936 0.312
China_Tianyuan -1.366 1.114 -0.031
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.067 -0.028 0.426
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.139 -0.250 0.738
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.115 -0.440 0.177
Turkey_N_published 0.844 -1.581 2.026
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.223 1.641 -0.909
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.086 -0.014 1.234
Papuan.DG 0.071 0.759 -0.215
Israel_Natufian_published 0.619 -1.038 1.880
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.503 1.690 -0.472
ONG.SG 0.098 0.869 -1.172
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.972 0.407 -0.718
A:
scale 1.732 1.732 1.732
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 1.732 0.000 0.000
Russian.DG 0.000 1.732 0.000
Bulgaria_IA 0.000 0.000 1.732


best coefficients: 0.590 0.162 0.248
totmean: 0.590 0.162 0.248
boot mean: 0.512 0.185 0.303
std. errors: 4.713 1.366 3.359

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
22215646 -6400915 -15814731
-6400915 1865799 4535115
-15814731 4535115 11279616


summ: Albanian.DG 3 0.756986 0.512 0.185 0.303 22215646 -6400915 -15814731 1865799 4535115 ...
11279616

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
000 0 11 7.503 0.756986 0.590 0.162 0.248
001 1 12 8.778 0.721776 0.956 0.044 0.000
010 1 12 9.018 0.701406 0.973 0.000 0.027
100 1 12 10.316 0.58825 0.000 0.378 0.622
011 2 13 8.970 0.775195 1.000 0.000 0.000
101 2 13 146.907 8.64338e-25 0.000 1.000 0.000
110 2 13 46.517 1.16526e-05 0.000 0.000 1.000
best pat: 000 0.756986 - -
best pat: 001 0.721776 chi(nested): 1.275 p-value for nested model: 0.258906
best pat: 011 0.775195 chi(nested): 0.192 p-value for nested model: 0.661043

coeffs: 0.590 0.162 0.248

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000010 0.020102
details: Russian.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.001414 2.828730
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000297 0.494272
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000308 Z: 0.672052

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG China_Tianyuan -0.000607 -1.143472
details: Russian.DG China_Tianyuan 0.001683 3.113433
details: Bulgaria_IA China_Tianyuan -0.000029 -0.044130
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: -0.000094 Z: -0.190328

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000030 0.088520
details: Russian.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000043 -0.118470
details: Bulgaria_IA Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000405 0.880748
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000111 Z: 0.350062

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000062 0.154182
details: Russian.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000377 -0.933407
details: Bulgaria_IA Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000702 1.466881
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000150 Z: 0.406190

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000051 -0.092787
details: Russian.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000665 -1.270056
details: Bulgaria_IA Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000168 0.258575
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000096 Z: -0.192390

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Turkey_N_published 0.000375 0.900532
details: Russian.DG Turkey_N_published -0.002388 -5.897841
details: Bulgaria_IA Turkey_N_published 0.001927 3.898686
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: 0.000313 Z: 0.826365

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000544 0.895076
details: Russian.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.002479 4.213458
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.000865 -1.197446
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000507 Z: 0.918992

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000927 1.664804
details: Russian.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000020 -0.035723
details: Bulgaria_IA Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.001174 1.743844
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: 0.000835 Z: 1.656602

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Papuan.DG 0.000031 0.074762
details: Russian.DG Papuan.DG 0.001147 2.724199
details: Bulgaria_IA Papuan.DG -0.000205 -0.379783
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000153 Z: 0.394858

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.000275 0.439941
details: Russian.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.001568 -2.676275
details: Bulgaria_IA Israel_Natufian_published 0.001789 2.317213
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.000352 Z: 0.624305

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000224 0.501985
details: Russian.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.002553 5.711301
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000449 -0.838048
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000433 Z: 1.079253

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG ONG.SG 0.000043 0.103717
details: Russian.DG ONG.SG 0.001313 3.120722
details: Bulgaria_IA ONG.SG -0.001115 -2.179602
dscore: ONG.SG f4: -0.000038 Z: -0.100956

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.000876 1.366422
details: Russian.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.000614 1.044836
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.000683 -0.917393
dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.000447 Z: 0.804824

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.672
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan -0.190
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.350
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.406
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.192
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published 0.826
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.919
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.657
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 0.395
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.624
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.079
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG -0.101
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.805
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -0.764
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.378
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.340
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.717
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published 0.010
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.336
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.927
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.354
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.068
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.267
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.768
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.215
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.372
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.496
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.004
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published 0.786
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.018
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.531
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 0.523
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 0.679
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.117
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG 0.122
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.776
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.082
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.366
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published 0.431
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.647
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.252
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.088
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.395
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.659
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -0.320
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.533
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.554
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.457
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.692
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.446
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 0.009
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.367
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.688
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.468
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.531
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 0.845
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.951
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.775
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 0.482
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.704
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.043
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 0.113
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.907
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.357
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.054
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -0.383
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 0.078
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.273
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -0.859
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.251
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.531
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.662
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.225
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.134
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -1.037
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.090
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -1.272
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.744
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.757
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -1.673
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.591
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.340
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.739
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.558
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.501
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.133
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -0.666
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.133
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -1.304
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.023
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.846

##end of qpAdm: 7.106 seconds cpu 1.114 Mbytes in use


qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1751156740
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
Albanian.DG
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG
Bulgaria_IA

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 12 chisq: 8.930 tail: 0.708937603 dofdiff: 14 chisqdiff: -8.930 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.460
China_Tianyuan 0.601
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.425
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.775
Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.294
Turkey_N_published 1.911
Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.128
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.751
Papuan.DG -0.142
Israel_Natufian_published 1.723
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.565
ONG.SG -1.157
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -1.193
A:
scale 1595.301
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG -0.047
Bulgaria_IA 1.413


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: 8.930 taildiff: 0.708937603
B:
scale 2249.860 1051.142
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.023 0.312
China_Tianyuan -1.366 -0.031
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.067 0.426
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.139 0.738
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.115 0.177
Turkey_N_published 0.844 2.026
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.223 -0.909
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.086 1.234
Papuan.DG 0.071 -0.215
Israel_Natufian_published 0.619 1.880
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.503 -0.472
ONG.SG 0.098 -1.172
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.972 -0.718
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 1.414 0.000
Bulgaria_IA 0.000 1.414


best coefficients: 0.968 0.032
totmean: 0.968 0.032
boot mean: 0.986 0.014
std. errors: 0.204 0.204

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
41467 -41467
-41467 41467


summ: Albanian.DG 2 0.708938 0.986 0.014 41467 -41467 41467

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 12 8.930 0.708938 0.968 0.032
01 1 13 8.980 0.774449 1.000 0.000
10 1 13 46.582 1.13634e-05 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.708938 - -
best pat: 01 0.774449 chi(nested): 0.051 p-value for nested model: 0.822165

coeffs: 0.968 0.032

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000010 0.020102
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000297 0.494272
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000019 Z: 0.038859

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG China_Tianyuan -0.000607 -1.143472
details: Bulgaria_IA China_Tianyuan -0.000029 -0.044130
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: -0.000589 Z: -1.119215

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000030 0.088520
details: Bulgaria_IA Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000405 0.880748
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000042 Z: 0.125418

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000062 0.154182
details: Bulgaria_IA Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000702 1.466881
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000082 Z: 0.207639

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000051 -0.092787
details: Bulgaria_IA Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000168 0.258575
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000044 Z: -0.080889

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Turkey_N_published 0.000375 0.900532
details: Bulgaria_IA Turkey_N_published 0.001927 3.898686
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: 0.000425 Z: 1.031729

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000544 0.895076
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.000865 -1.197446
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000498 Z: 0.829842

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000927 1.664804
details: Bulgaria_IA Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.001174 1.743844
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: 0.000935 Z: 1.699930

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Papuan.DG 0.000031 0.074762
details: Bulgaria_IA Papuan.DG -0.000205 -0.379783
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000024 Z: 0.057306

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.000275 0.439941
details: Bulgaria_IA Israel_Natufian_published 0.001789 2.317213
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.000324 Z: 0.523733

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000224 0.501985
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000449 -0.838048
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000202 Z: 0.459198

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG ONG.SG 0.000043 0.103717
details: Bulgaria_IA ONG.SG -0.001115 -2.179602
dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000006 Z: 0.015071

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.000876 1.366422
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.000683 -0.917393
dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.000826 Z: 1.307974

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.039
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan -1.119
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.125
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.208
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.081
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published 1.032
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.830
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.700
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 0.057
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.524
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.459
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.015
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.308
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -1.067
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.041
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.126
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.104
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published 0.766
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.746
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.514
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG 0.010
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.431
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.358
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.027
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.136
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 1.074
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.253
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.841
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published 1.812
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.658
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.299
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 1.203
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 1.296
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.544
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG 1.225
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.838
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.081
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.142
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published 0.749
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.686
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.428
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -0.035
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.417
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.302
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -0.072
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.113
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.261
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.884
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.740
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.633
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG -0.139
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.402
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.267
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.178
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.191
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 0.888
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.784
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.725
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 0.122
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.524
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.444
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 0.092
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.281
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.122
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.946
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -0.874
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published -0.183
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.463
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -0.941
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.668
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.652
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.815
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.232
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.493
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.857
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.448
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -1.577
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.854
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.258
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -1.641
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.148
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.471
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.442
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.049
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.225
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.185
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -0.500
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.635
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -0.499
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.913
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.265

##end of qpAdm: 1.994 seconds cpu 0.778 Mbytes in use


 
Your model fails qpAdm (100%-400% std. errors), even if I just use Logkas and BGR_IA without the Russian reference (20% std. errors). It goes to show that you can mix and match whatever you want in that smartPCA and get the result you want.

Check my right pops, if you think I am failing it on purpose, and tell me what to swap but I don't think you can make it work but of course I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

You can see all your so called expertise on archeogenetics is based on fake principles and methodology.
You are lucky that Ancient Greeks were heavily J2a and G2a, so we cannot distinguish them with the Anatolian lines. Unfortunately not all have that luck.

Either way neither of our opinion is fully fact until we have ancient genomes from Iron Age Pontus. So leave it as that.
 
Last edited:
You are lucky that Ancient Greeks were heavily J2a and G2a, so we cannot distinguish them with the Anatolian lines. Unfortunately not that all have that luck.

Either way neither of our opinion is fully fact until we have ancient genomes from Iron Age Pontus. So leave it as that.


There's nothing "lucky" about that because ancient Greeks were an Anatolian derived civilization and Ionic Greeks were actually based in Anatolia + Athens. So the only people trying to separate them from Asia Minor, or Anatolia if you like, are ignoramuses spin doctors like you and your ilk.
 
There's nothing "lucky" about that because ancient Greeks were an Anatolian derived civilization and Ionic Greeks were actually based in Anatolia + Athens. So the only people trying to separate them from Asia Minor, or Anatolia if you like, are ignoramuses spin doctors like you and your ilk.
You don't get what I was saying.
Hey watch your tongue, it's not my fault your ancestors were Ottoman Laz dhimmis that spoke Greek bilingually.

Adjarian, H; "Étude sur la langue Laze"; Mémoires de la Société de linguistique de Paris, vol.X; Paris, 1899; page 145:

"The Christian Lazes depend on the Greek patriarchate of Constantinople; they speak Greek and consider themselves Greek. However, we recognize them by their accent. They occupy the western part of Lazistan, from Platana in the east to Trebizonde, and in the south of Trebizonde to Gumusxana. The main cities where we meet them are Platana, Trebizonde and Gumusxana."

Where did Christian Lazes go? Were they killed off?
 
You don't get what I was saying.
Hey watch your tongue, it's not my fault your ancestors were Ottoman Laz dhimmis that spoke Greek bilingually.

Adjarian, H; "Étude sur la langue Laze"; Mémoires de la Société de linguistique de Paris, vol.X; Paris, 1899; page 145:

"The Christian Lazes depend on the Greek patriarchate of Constantinople; they speak Greek and consider themselves Greek. However, we recognize them by their accent. They occupy the western part of Lazistan, from Platana in the east to Trebizonde, and in the south of Trebizonde to Gumusxana. The main cities where we meet them are Platana, Trebizonde and Gumusxana."


Lazes and Greeks lived together and had children for 3000 years, you dork, you think it's offensive to Pontics to be called Lazes? Like I said, ignoramus, but I understand, if I was from the West Balkans, I'd also have a complex.
 
Lazes and Greeks lived together and had children for 3000 years, you dork, you think it's offensive to Pontics to be called Lazes? Like I said, ignoramus, but I understand, if I was from the West Balkans, I'd also have a complex.

No it would not be offensive for me either. Shalom.
 
^^Sarcasm btw, obviously I don't actually believe that. But I find it hypocritical that you will "take" the modeling for your people that suits your preferences. Yet Southern Italians are "romanticists" for repeating what geneticists speculate about Anatolian_N/CHG in the EBA (the same one that was shown to be within Albanians in Raveane et al. 2018)? Did you really think I was going to let this double-standard go un-rebuked?
 
^^Sarcasm btw, obviously I don't actually believe that. But I find it hypocritical that you will "take" the modeling for your people that suits your preferences. Yet Southern Italians are "romanticists" for repeating what geneticists speculate about Anatolian_N/CHG in the EBA (the same one that was shown to be within Albanians in Raveane et al. 2018)? Did you really think I was going to let this double-standard go un-rebuked?

I used to believe that Southern Italians were Mycenaean-like before the Greek colonization even started, but the leaked samples does not show it so I changed my mind. Sure they had regional differences but still it turned out to be wrong. I am not sure how did this 33% EBA Anatolian and native population in Southern Italy remained unmolested till 300BC, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Even if for example Ancient Greeks replaced the entire population of Southern Italy (they were probably below 50% when you count all provinces together but still) you still need a more eastern source to model Southern Italians. And I find hard to believe that Native Italians were more eastern than Ancient Greeks genetically.

Of course the percentages are arguable, ~50% East Med input and later 20% Germanic input in Tuscany is beyond point too high.
 
The run with the Armenian sample in the Reich dataset has a big standard-error, so it's not a very good result, I told you in my original post. The Armenians have too much Steppe to transform into Pontic Greeks all of the sudden. Where did all that Steppe admixture go? And where did all that Armenian R1b disappear, it's their dominant marker, Pontic Greeks barely have any R1b. It's a nonsensical argument.

Also, I used your preferred method of analysis, and even your G25 corroborates my above results, so really, what are you on about, dude?

Do you know how much E-V13 there is in Pontians? I believe it is close to 10%.
 
Do you know how much E-V13 there is in Pontians? I believe it is close to 10%.

I know one Pontic Greek who was E-V13, but his ancestor was a Christian Albanian (not an Arvanite) that was transplanted to Treizbond from the Turks (a drop in ocean).
His genetic profile was essentially like other Pontians. I searched it but I cannot seem to find it anymore, it was in Anthrogenica.
 

This thread has been viewed 142732 times.

Back
Top