Genetic study The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans

[Mmiikkii]

I always thought that R1b-M269 came from the northern Middle East via the Caucasus but I thought it more likely through the eastern side of the Caucasus how long do Caspian Sea (mainly because it's easier to cross there). This remains to be confirmed by ancient DNA

We KNOW Kura-Araxes was J1 because of the supplementary data in the Southern Arc paper.

But just north in Maykop, you said they were R1b.

 

[Anfänger]

Luckily they did model it in a note:


But yeah this Aknashen population seems fascinating.

Here is a qpAdm run for the Aknashen population:

right = c('Congo_Mbuti.DG', 'Anatolia_Boncuklu_N.SG', 'Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG', 'Satsurblia.SG',
'MoroccUB002_Epipaleolithic.SG','Italy_GrottaContinenza_HG.SG','RUS_Arkhangelsk_HG.SG','Botai.SG',
'Andaman 100BP.SG', 'RUS Primorsky DevilsCave N.SG', 'Peru RioUncallane 1800BP.SG')
allsnps=TRUE

Armenia_Aknashen_N
Anatolia_TepecikCiftlik_N.SG 0.330029 0.119975 2.75080
Iran_ HaijiFiruz CA 0.384564 0.161508 2.38108
Kotias.SG 0.285407 0.0660966 4.31803
Tail: 0.64

Armenia_Aknashen_N: Anatolian_N 33%+Iran_C 38%+ CHG(Kotias) 28%.

Now let's take a look at Progress 2 (Steppe Eneolithic):

RUS_Stavropol_Progress_Eneolithic
Caucasus_Eneolithic 0.453441 0.0153266 29.5852
Tailkistan Tutkaul N 0.248771 0.0220447 11.2848
RUS_Tatarstan_Murzihinskiy_Volosovo 0.2977880.022830613.0433
Tail: 0.15

That's pretty much the same as in the paper.

 

[Moja]

In this study David Anthony and other followers of Kurgan hypothesis have actually confirmed that an early Indo-European language existed in the South of Caucasus and northwest of Iran from at least the 5th millennium BC. According to Heggarty et. al, not only Anatolian but also Indo-Iranian, Hellenic and Albanian languages could be from the same region in the south of Caucasus.

 

[Anfänger]

In this study David Anthony and other followers of Kurgan hypothesis have actually confirmed that an early Indo-European language existed in the South of Caucasus and northwest of Iran from at least the 5th millennium BC. According to Heggarty et. al, not only Anatolian but also Indo-Iranian, Hellenic and Albanian languages could be from the same region in the south of Caucasus.

That’s their opinion on that matter.
PIA=Proto-Indo-Anatolian
PIE=Proto-Indo-European
PA=Proto-Anatolian

 

[Moja]

View attachment 16097

That’s their opinion on that matter.
PIA=Proto-Indo-Anatolian
PIE=Proto-Indo-European
PA=Proto-Anatolian

Hypothesis A (East & west) is actually the same old Kurgan hypothesis by ignoring ancient DNA findings. A homeland in the south of Caucasus easily solves the problem.

 

[Anfänger]

Hypothesis A (East & west) is actually the same old Kurgan hypothesis by ignoring ancient DNA findings. A homeland in the south of Caucasus easily solves the problem.

They found steppe ancestry in BA Central Anatolia apparently. Caucasus-Lower Volga ancestry to be more precise.

 

[Moja]

They found steppe ancestry in BA Central Anatolia apparently. Caucasus-Lower Volga ancestry to be more precise.

It says "CLV ancestry first appears in the Chalcolithic population at Areni-1 in Armenia.", Areni is in the south of Armenia, it has nothing to do with Steppe.

 

[Anfänger]

It says "CLV ancestry first appears in the Chalcolithic population at Areni-1 in Armenia.", Areni is in the south of Armenia, it has nothing to do with Steppe.

How do you think CLV ends up in Armenia? It got there from the steppe because earlier samples don’t have this "CLV" ancestry. Like always you’re unable to logical thinking.

 

[Moja]

How do you think CLV ends up in Armenia? It got there from the steppe because earlier samples don’t have this "CLV" ancestry. Like always you’re unable to logical thinking.

It says the majority of CLV ancestry is from West Asian sources from the Mesopotamia-Caucasus (or Çayönü-Masis Blur-Aknashen) cline.

 

[MOESAN]

[... First, a "Caucasus-Lower Volga" (CLV) Cline suffused with Caucasus hunter-gatherer (CHG) ancestry extended between a Caucasus Neolithic southern end in Neolithic Armenia, and a steppe northern end in Berezhnovka in the Lower Volga. Bidirectional gene flow across the CLV cline created admixed intermediate populations in both the north Caucasus, such as the Maikop people, and on the steppe, such as those at the site of Remontnoye north of the Manych depression. ...]

 

[TJeroen]

In this study David Anthony and other followers of Kurgan hypothesis have actually confirmed that an early Indo-European language existed in the South of Caucasus and northwest of Iran from at least the 5th millennium BC. According to Heggarty et. al, not only Anatolian but also Indo-Iranian, Hellenic and Albanian languages could be from the same region in the south of Caucasus.

Come on. Serious? Indo-Iranian and Greek form the South Caucasus? Against all available data and common sense.

 

[TJeroen]

Do we have Y-DNA from the Shulaveri-Shomu culture?

I always thought that R1b-M269 came from the northern Middle East via the Caucasus but I thought it more likely through the eastern side of the Caucasus how long do Caspian Sea (mainly because it's easier to cross there). This remains to be confirmed by ancient DNA

View attachment 16015

Yeah, this figure is years old. I was just assuming you were to lazy to update, because all evidence since then pointed to a northern origin of R1b, including all the important strands. It becomes a case of special pleading to hold on to this view. Enjoyed reading all your work btw.

 

[MOESAN]

Yeah, this figure is years old. I was just assuming you were to lazy to update, because all evidence since then pointed to a northern origin of R1b, including all the important strands. It becomes a case of special pleading to hold on to this view. Enjoyed reading all your work btw.

Tempted to agree with you.

 

[torzio]

The paper states that Armenian, Greek and Albanian linguistically come from Yamnaya and every other indo-european language comes via Corded Ware

its what was always known, summary below from various studies

Because of the fragmentary evidence of Phrygian, its exact position within the Indo-European language family is uncertain.[7][8] Phrygian shares important features mainly with Greek, but also with Armenian and Albanian.

 

[Moja]

Come on. Serious? Indo-Iranian and Greek form the South Caucasus? Against all available data and common sense.

It is what the greatest Indo-European linguists in the world say, as you read here: https://www.academia.edu/105839899/Informal_review_of_Heggarty_et_al_2023_Indo_European_phylogeny_ "IE-CoR was prepared by an international team comprised of more than 80 linguists – experts in various IE groups and languages who have been working on it for four years."

 

[Ricardo]

It says the majority of CLV ancestry is from West Asian sources from the Mesopotamia-Caucasus (or Çayönü-Masis Blur-Aknashen) cline.

Yes and the Mespopotamia-Caucasus cline must be necessarily complemented by the Iranian Caspian continuum, the Iranian Southeastern Caspian also can be related to the same source to the Lower Volga-Northeastern Caspian population.

 

[Moja]

Yes and the Mespopotamia-Caucasus cline must be necessarily complemented by the Iranian Caspian continuum, the Iranian Southeastern Caspian also can be related to the same source to the Lower Volga-Northeastern Caspian population.

It can be easily proved that Hittite culture originated in Iran, for example the earliest double-headed eagle which was a major Hittite symbol has been found in Iran: https://www.jaco-sj.com/jufile?ar_sfile=2375479

 

[Hawk]

You could as well argue Hittites came from Southern Mesopotamia because the first instance of double headed eagle was from Lagash the Sumerian city.

 

[Moja]

You could as well argue Hittites came from Southern Mesopotamia because the first instance of double headed eagle was from Lagash the Sumerian city.

As you read in the article that I mentioned, double headed eagle of Tall-i Bakun (5500-3500 BC) is older.

 

[bigsnake49]

The paper states that Armenian, Greek and Albanian linguistically come from Yamnaya and every other indo-european language comes via Corded Ware

its what was always known, summary below from various studies

Because of the fragmentary evidence of Phrygian, its exact position within the Indo-European language family is uncertain.[7][8] Phrygian shares important features mainly with Greek, but also with Armenian and Albanian.

Right now the Phrygian/Brygian branch is supposedly through Yamnaya>Southwest Balkans>Anatolia. What if it actually went the other way, Yamnaya>South Caucasus>Anatolia>Southwest Balkans with the main body settling in central Anatolia and a smaller one migrating to between the Macedonians and the Illyrians.