The genomic history of southeastern Europe-Mathiesen et al

[Alan]

Whats the difference between CHG / Iran_Neolithic and CHG / Iran_Chl ? If neolithic iranians went to steppe, so maybe CHG / iran_Chl is more like Steppe_EHG / Iran Neolithic with a reflux in iranian in chalcolithic / bronze age.

Iran_CHL has Anatolian/Levant_Neo and CHG admixture.

 

[MarkoZ]

My bet: herders from actual Kurdistan spread towards the Balkans around 4500 after learning advanced metalurgy from their Mesopotamian neighbours.

I think newer findings suggest that the spread of early metallurgy would have happened from the highlands to the lowlands. This is what Christopher Thornton suggests in The Emergence of Complex Metallurgy on the Iranian Plateau: Escaping the Levantine Paradigm (2009). He suggest the eastern half of the Elburz might have had a important part in the development of early copper and tin bronze than the Zagros range. See, for example, The Chalcolithic and early Bronze Age metallurgy of Tepe Hissar, northeast Iran by the same author.

It would be interesting to see if Iran_CHL admixture follows the spread of metallurgy. Though this still wouldn't offer a convincing explanation as to why it happened, since copper knives and such are probably worse than their equivalent tools made of flint if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Angela]

I think newer findings suggest that the spread of early metallurgy would have happened from the highlands to the lowlands. This is what Christopher Thornton suggests in The Emergence of Complex Metallurgy on the Iranian Plateau: Escaping the Levantine Paradigm (2009). He suggest the eastern half of the Elburz might have had a important part in the development of early copper and tin bronze than the Zagros range. See, for example, The Chalcolithic and early Bronze Age metallurgy of Tepe Hissar, northeast Iran by the same author.

It would be interesting to see if Iran_CHL admixture follows the spread of metallurgy. Though this still wouldn't offer a convincing explanation as to why it happened, since copper knives and such are probably worse than their equivalent tools made of flint if I'm not mistaken.

I've read papers that say the same.

What it had going for it is that it was new, shiny, and rare-a perfect prestige item.

 

[berun]

The date around 4500 BC is linked with the expansion of the Gumelnitsa-Karanovo Culture in the Eastern Balkans (the Varna Culture is thought to be a variant). The Mother Goddess is not very appealing to IE peoples...

By the way I have checked what was going on in Anatolia by then (from Ancient Turkey):

Influences associated with post-Vinca horizons (ie, Maritsa, Pre-Cucuteni and Gumelnitsa) are also apparent at a number of central Anatolian sites such... Whether evidence comes through excavations or field surveys, the chronology of central Anatolia remains a major obstacle.

Ceramics from Hoca Cesme II show new influences, namely the introduction of barbotine pottery also known as "surface roughened" in southeastern Europe.

... enabled later metalsmiths to produce items that were significantly larger and more complicated than was possible by simple cold hammering.

 

[LeBrok]

Whats the difference between CHG / Iran_Neolithic and CHG / Iran_Chl ? If neolithic iranians went to steppe, so maybe CHG / iran_Chl is more like Steppe_EHG / Iran Neolithic with a reflux in iranian in chalcolithic / bronze age.

Iran Chalcolithic carries more Caucasian and SW Asian, and less Baloch/Gedrosia and less S Indian. Obvious mixing with CHG and Levant.

 

[LeBrok]

I've read papers that say the same.

What it had going for it is that it was new, shiny, and rare-a perfect prestige item.

Plus it can be resharpened almost countless times and much easier to hold in hand when working with it, and maybe easier to carry around and use for self defence too. It was not as sharp as microliths, but much more versatile.

 

[berun]

Well, time ago, the people that used to think that copper weapons were beautiful but quite useless, as the Neolithic people with their stone axes, wanished after checking the harm that can receive from a cutting edge.

Francisca throwing axe (a kind of Frankish tomahawk)

and some videos about their fashion uses.

even a mean woman can beat an enemy from her seat.

 

[berun]

 

[MOESAN]

The highest EHG+WHG percentage belonging to the Early Balkan Neolithic is a T1a1a individual from Malak Preslavets with 35%
The lowest EHG+WHG from Malak Preslavets is a G2a2b2a individual with 0%

This show extreme differences among individuals from a same settlement in a same time period.

this shows that we need some minimal numbers of tested remnants before building too hasty theories - in a stable well sampled and localized pop 5 persons are enough for auDNA average (advantage upon uniparental Haplos)- but at times when people or tribes were moving on and elites mating here and there, 5 auDNA could be very little: we see the high enough variations among German BB's by example which "cover" a good bit of Europe on PCA's-

 

[Atlantische]

It's pretty interesting that I1927 sample tested as a G-L42 scored a highest Yamnaya % in autosomal genetics of all Cucuteni-Trypillian samples.

By the end of the 6th 151 millennium BCE, agriculture had reached eastern Europe, in the form of the Cucuteni-Trypillian complex in the area of present-day Moldova, Romania and Ukraine, with densely settled “mega-sites” in Ukraine housing hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of
people. After around 4000 BCE, these societies further transformed, the tell settlements were largely abandoned, and there is archaeological evidence of contact with nomadic pastoralist populations from the Eurasian steppe. However, the population movements that accompaniedthese events are not immediately evident from the archaeological record and remain largely unknown.

In a few individuals from southeastern Europe, we find evidence of steppe-related ancestry far earlier (defined here as a mixture of EHG and CHG similar to the genetic signature of individuals of the later Yamnaya; Figure 1B,D). One individual (ANI163) from the Varna I cemetery dates to 4711-4550 BCE, one (I2181) from nearby Smyadovo dates to 4550-4450 BCE, and a third individual (I1927) from Verteba cave, associated with the Cucuteni-Trypillian complex, dates to 3619-2936 BCE. These findings push back by almost 2000 years the first evidence of steppe ancestry this far West in Europe, demonstrating the resumption of genetic contact between southeastern Europe and the Steppe that also occurred in the Mesolithic.

 

[halfalp]

Are the authors linking the Iron Gates HG with Lepenski Vir ?

 

[MOESAN]

Could you elaborate more on the physical distinction? I'd appreciate that. Thanks.

Helas I've not indexes and metric measures bout them: not too big differences I suppose, on a general plan: 'mediterraneanlike' with in common: dolichocephaly (72-73 in "pure" types, high supra-auricular skull, developped frontal, light enough skeletons, low stature (1m58/1m62); I'have no skull for any of them, only written descriptions, but it seems the types are easy to discriminate; more pedomorphic among 'danubians' << Catal Höyük, broad enough skeletal nose, even higher skulls, frontalized faces, but narrow; the other 'mediterraneans' seemed shorter faced, but narrow too, with a linear skull vault after a vertical frontal too, and a very lowered occiput; this is typology pointing to most typical individuals (Charles, Riquet); but in metric global surveys established about global pop, the 'danubians' of the first times kept on distinguishible from other 'mediters' (Pinhasi): 'danubian' here would be taken as early Farmers of Catal Höyök and from the first settlements of N-Greece and Balkans roughly said - at the individual levels, the input of the descendants of these 'danubians' in Parisian Bassin (Middle Late Neolithic) were still distinguishible from the Post-Cardial Chassean 'mediters' come up from Provence to Switzerland and North France through Rhône and Saône Valleys

 

[MOESAN]

It seems some MN and LN of Catalonia presented the 'danubian' tendancy, according to old scholars (no full text at hand) - so small rather dolicho people from "South-East" but not exactly the same ones. Sorry I cannot tell very more - the question is: some different and typical external details can develop upon a very similar auDNA makeup and some differences in auDNA total makeup could stay without evident trace on external aspect as always - knowledge needs every kind of tool, whatever the hyerarchy one can put within these tools -

 

[Angela]

It appears that mass hysteria has already set in. If the rumor mill is correct as to what the next papers will show, I can't even imagine the coming reaction.

 

[MOESAN]

Coon danubians:
CephIndex 73,7 - height.length ind: 75,1 - height-Breadth Ind: 101,9 - height index mean: 88,5 (the usefull one!)
ind facial sup: 51,9 'rather low: so broad enough superior face compared to other 'meds' of any kind - orbital ind: 79,5: rather low for true 'meds' here again - high space between base of skeletal nose and superior teeth - COON supposed they could have had rather concave noses snub noses - the "Rubanés" people seem having kept some of these traits, attenuated, if I don't mistake (even less measures) - I stop here, this is not an anthropo thread - I beg the pardon of other users -

 

[MOESAN]

It's pretty interesting that I1927 sample tested as a G-L42 scored a highest Yamnaya % in autosomal genetics of all Cucuteni-Trypillian samples.

By the end of the 6th 151 millennium BCE, agriculture had reached eastern Europe, in the form of the Cucuteni-Trypillian complex in the area of present-day Moldova, Romania and Ukraine, with densely settled “mega-sites” in Ukraine housing hundreds, and perhaps thousands, of
people. After around 4000 BCE, these societies further transformed, the tell settlements were largely abandoned, and there is archaeological evidence of contact with nomadic pastoralist populations from the Eurasian steppe. However, the population movements that accompaniedthese events are not immediately evident from the archaeological record and remain largely unknown.

In a few individuals from southeastern Europe, we find evidence of steppe-related ancestry far earlier (defined here as a mixture of EHG and CHG similar to the genetic signature of individuals of the later Yamnaya; Figure 1B,D). One individual (ANI163) from the Varna I cemetery dates to 4711-4550 BCE, one (I2181) from nearby Smyadovo dates to 4550-4450 BCE, and a third individual (I1927) from Verteba cave, associated with the Cucuteni-Trypillian complex, dates to 3619-2936 BCE. These findings push back by almost 2000 years the first evidence of steppe ancestry this far West in Europe, demonstrating the resumption of genetic contact between southeastern Europe and the Steppe that also occurred in the Mesolithic.

thanks: could you precise me the meaning of colours here?
5 is not too much but they have all a "farmer" Y-haplo, for the most Y-G2a - in classical anthropo I red people in Trypillia show rather 'mediter' looks but with noticeable "proto-European" input, for the most females - it seems Y-I2a (ad maybe some Y-R1b) made its/their way a bit later, or at the mergins of the CTC strongholsd, rather Carpathians immediate surroundings? AS a whole CTC seems having developped in plains rather than in mountains, spite metals needs?

 

[LeBrok]

It seems some MN and LN of Catalonia presented the 'danubian' tendancy, according to old scholars (no full text at hand) - so small rather dolicho people from "South-East" but not exactly the same ones. Sorry I cannot tell very more - the question is: some different and typical external details can develop upon a very similar auDNA makeup and some differences in auDNA total makeup could stay without evident trace on external aspect as always - knowledge needs every kind of tool, whatever the hyerarchy one can put within these tools -

That could be great, as I can see BA Hungarian influence in Iberian genetics of late BA. To bad I have only one sample to play with, and not the best quality either.

 

[Shetop]

It appears that mass hysteria has already set in. If the rumor mill is correct as to what the next papers will show, I can't even imagine the coming reaction.

Could you tell us what is the rumor saying?

 

[Atlantische]

thanks: could you precise me the meaning of colours here?
5 is not too much but they have all a "farmer" Y-haplo, for the most Y-G2a - in classical anthropo I red people in Trypillia show rather 'mediter' looks but with noticeable "proto-European" input, for the most females - it seems Y-I2a (ad maybe some Y-R1b) made its/their way a bit later, or at the mergins of the CTC strongholsd, rather Carpathians immediate surroundings? AS a whole CTC seems having developped in plains rather than in mountains, spite metals needs?

Gray Anatolian Neolithic
Blue WHG
Red EHG
Orange Yamnaya

 

[MOESAN]

Gray Anatolian Neolithic
Blue WHG
Red EHG
Orange Yamnaya

Thanks, it was what I thought, but I preferred be sure, for the most concerning EHG and WHG, I could not extrapolate with too much certainty.