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The impact of climate change on culture

Let's not make something like this a political issue. Links posted containing agendas don't have a place in a scientifically oriented forum.
 
It should be noticed that all the big demographic collapses and cultural annihilations happened during cold periods, the little ice ages. Warming always coincided with population expansion and thriving of cultures. There is a bigger danger for humanity if next Ice Age comes than from temps rising 1-2C in next 100 years. Finally, I would love to see the complete climate model, which can separate natural warming and cooling trends from man made. Otherwise we are just guessing what is the scale of impact of anthropogenic CO2 on Earth.
 
For most people, including on this forum, if it agrees with one's political point of view it's viewed as objective science; if it doesn't it's viewed as political propaganda.

My motto is to read both sides, check as much as possible, and then decide.

On this issue, I don't think we have the right data to decide how much of the change is man-made versus a repeat of natural cycles we've seen before.

I'll also go on record that I agree with LeBrok that warming is less problematical than Ice Ages. In fact, as I've speculated before, we're rather overdue for an Ice Age. Perhaps artificially warming the planet a bit may not been an altogether bad thing, although obviously we don't want it to go too far.
 
Technically, we are still in an ice age. But in warm period of ice age
 
I'll always take warming over an ice age. I despise winter and if I could, I'd ensure that summer never ends. Let's get that weather machine rolling and make it summer all year round and put an end to winter related depression and boredom. Yeah stay inside a log cabin with a fire going while drinking hot chocolate, what fun is that? BOOORRRING. Ok hot chocolate is good, but summer offers so much more.
 
davef said:
I'll always take warming over an ice age. I despise winter and if I could, I'd ensure that summer never ends. Let's get that weather machine rolling and make it summer all year round and put an end to winter related depression and boredom. Yeah stay inside a log cabin with a fire going while drinking hot chocolate, what fun is that? BOOORRRING. Ok hot chocolate is good, but summer offers so much more.
Click to expand...
I have good memories of the cold winters in the 1960's when I was a young boy.
We were out playing on the ice, because all the fields were flooded in autumn.
I allways came home after dark.

23518801_764973580361965_1339808434330905999_n.jpg
 
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Land prices in Greenland have risen dramatically the last decade.
It is mainly Chinese that buy the land.
Now they can grow their tomatoes in greenhouses there.
Before all the vegetables and fruits had to be imported and were very expensive.

Yes, in prehistory a warming climate was allways a time of expansions and new opportunities.
 
Ive never been convinced of global warming, at best its down to the earths wobble, like shifting seasons, we only have to wait 15000 years for the rain to return to Egypt and everyone will know. Maybe we go back there when U.K. gets abit chilly again :)
 
bicicleur said:
it says drought around 2200 BC
where does it say climate warming?
Click to expand...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8.2_kiloyear_event

After more detail research, actually it seems that cooling in North Europe causes aridification in those regions.

Interesting:
Ottoman Fall and Little Ice Age
http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/vi...68677.001.0001/acprof-9780199768677-chapter-3

the Eastern Mediterranean also descended into its worst drought in six centuries, punctuated by the coldest winters in memory.
 
I dont think you can study DNA without understanding the climate in north europe around 6000 bc.
As i understand it there was tsunami's and flooding on a Biblical scale. Most of the lowlands of
denmark, germany, france, and Britain would have been saturated. wasnt rivers 10 times larger ?
and many more of them. Think about it, any settlements that wasnt washed away would have very
quickly run out of food, fresh water, and meds/herbs.
Maybe the Black sea flood and the spilling into the med, was all 1 giant world changing flood ?

I bet nearly half of europe was cleansed of people, its no surprise, climate change is the reason why
we are all related.
 
O Neill said:
I dont think you can study DNA without understanding the climate in north europe around 6000 bc.
As i understand it there was tsunami's and flooding on a Biblical scale. Most of the lowlands of
denmark, germany, france, and Britain would have been saturated. wasnt rivers 10 times larger ?
and many more of them. Think about it, any settlements that wasnt washed away would have very
quickly run out of food, fresh water, and meds/herbs.
Maybe the Black sea flood and the spilling into the med, was all 1 giant world changing flood ?

I bet nearly half of europe was cleansed of people, its no surprise, climate change is the reason why
we are all related.
Click to expand...
The cooling event 8kya, as big as it was, didn't change much for history of europe. It was before farming has spread into Europe and before any civilization started.
 
Boreas said:
Interesting:
Ottoman Fall and Little Ice Age
http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/vie...8677-chapter-3

the Eastern Mediterranean also descended into its worst drought in six centuries, punctuated by the coldest winters in memory.
Click to expand...
They said, it happened when it was only 0.6C cooler than average. When Roman Empire collapsed it was 2C cooler. So it wasn't the lack of morality in Rome that brought it down, it was the freakishly cold spells, lack of food, poverty, economical collapse and mas starvation.
 
O Neill said:
I dont think you can study DNA without understanding the climate in north europe around 6000 bc.
As i understand it there was tsunami's and flooding on a Biblical scale. Most of the lowlands of
denmark, germany, france, and Britain would have been saturated. wasnt rivers 10 times larger ?
and many more of them. Think about it, any settlements that wasnt washed away would have very
quickly run out of food, fresh water, and meds/herbs.
Maybe the Black sea flood and the spilling into the med, was all 1 giant world changing flood ?

I bet nearly half of europe was cleansed of people, its no surprise, climate change is the reason why
we are all related.
Click to expand...

not in Europe, but in northern Africa
the era of the 'Green Sahara' was interrupted for a few centuries
before 8.2 ka northern Africa was full of HG
during, it was empty
after it was poopulated by herders

8.2 ka probalby also had a big impact on SW Asia


the 8.2 ka Doggerland megatsunami is unrelated to the 8.2 ka climate event

the Black Sea flood happened - if at all - much earlier
 
LeBrok said:
They said, it happened when it was only 0.6C cooler than average. When Roman Empire collapsed it was 2C cooler. So it wasn't the lack of morality in Rome that brought it down, it was the freakishly cold spells, lack of food, poverty, economical collapse and mas starvation.
Click to expand...
I'd say it is a combination of both.
Climate change made peacefull Nordic farmers transform into Germanic warrior tribes going southbound, but it is Rome's internal weakness and political chaos at times that made them unable to prevent the invasions in their overextended empire.

Before the climate change grapes grew in Scandinavia. The climate change affected agriculture much more in the high north than in the Roman empire.
 
I do agree with your general statement that you can't blame only one cause.

However, peaceful German farmers? I must disagree, Bicicleur...Even Wiki gets it right....they started trying to invade the Empire in the second century BC, long before the famines brought on by the climate change in the latter days of the Empire. There's an impressive list of battles here, some, to be sure, defensive ones, but many offensive in nature. At a certain point Rome recognized it couldn't absorb new territories, and everything became defensive in nature. As for the last wave of aggression, yes, climate had a hand in it, because of hunger, but also because they were being massacred by the Huns, who were also suffering because of poor grassland.

I do agree that there were periods of internal problems in the Empire, but without the Germanic invasions, propelled by desperation, the Western Empire could have survived, as did the Eastern one. There was also famine in the empire.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_Wars


"the general population may not have recovered from the severe plague which struck the empire from 165-180, and likely again in 189.31 J.F. Gilliam convincingly argues that this plague did not kill half of the population as many early historians believed, but he may have gone too far in the other direction by estimating that it killed only 1 to 2 percent of the population. A 7 to 10 percent mortality rate for the empire seems more reasonable.32 Whatever the exact percentage was, it seems clear that this plague disrupted patterns in many archaeological data sets. These data sets show a considerable drop in meat consumption and a decline in the length of the average Roman femur, indicating a shorter and less healthy population. The argument that the climate of Europe at this time was cooler and dryer, if true, would only have contributed to the severity of the plague.33 Based on the evidence available, this plague contributed greatly to the overall population loss which took place during this period. Less than a century later during the worst portion of the Third-Century Crisis from 250 to 270, another large-scale plague struck the Roman Empire, this one starting in the east and spreading quickly, likely due to the movement of soldiers. When this plague is coupled with the widespread barbarian raids of this era it is reasonable to assume that the peasant population dropped substantially. This is especially true when one factors in the scores of slaves and tenant farmers, many of Germanic origin, who would have taken the opportunity presented by the confusion and disruption of this period to flee from their lands and masters.34 It was from this diminished population that the army had to find enough recruits to defend the empire.35"

http://www.kyleharper.net/uncategorized/database-of-pestilence-in-the-roman-empire/

Plagues from the east along with a famine weakened population and invasions spelled the end.

The Germans were by no means peaceful farmers:
"In a victory over the Alamanni by Constantius, Ammianus states the defeated barbarians threw away their armor to run faster, and thus gives a rare mention of Germanic peoples wearing armor.80 In a separate engagement with these same barbarians won by Julian, Ammianus states the Alamanni held the advantage in both strength and height giving a key glimpse into the physical stature likely shared by many Germanic tribes.81 In a description of Persian troops, Ammianus tells us that their military training and discipline, combined with their practice of maneuvers and arms drills made them formidable opponents. They relied heavily upon their cavalry, manned by the nobility, and their regular infantry were armed like Roman gladiators.82"

Many of them had also served in the Roman forces as mercenaries and been rewarded by territory within the Empire. Rome was harboring a fifth column in its midst, sort of like the ethnic Germans in Eastern Europe during World War II".

http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1577&context=etd

The Eastern Roman Empire handled things in a more ruthless but efficacious way for themselves:they exterminated as many of the Germanic mercenaries as they could manage, and pointed the rest toward the west.

As for Christianity being the cause, that won't wash, although the internal religious disputes didn't help. If it were the cause, then why did the Eastern Empire survive for another 1000 years?

Razib Khan has the following book always high on his list of the ten most important books he's ever read. I wouldn't go that far, but it's very good, and a short read to boot:

"The Fall of Rome and the End of Civilization" by Bryan Ward-Perkins
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/68540.The_Fall_of_Rome_And_the_End_of_Civilization
 
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