The Irish Neolithic-Milk and Molecules-Secrets From Prehistory

[Angela]

The article is in a 2014 book on Irish Archaeology (the Bronze Age is also covered). This is the link:
https://www.academia.edu/10191058/Milk_and_molecules_secrets_from_prehistoric_pottery

The main gist of the article is that:
"In other words, dairying was not a farming practice ‘discovered’ or developed at a later, more advanced stage of agricultural development, what has been referred to as the ‘Secondary Products Revolution’ (e.g. Sherratt 1981). In Ireland, as far as we can tell, dairying was present from the beginning of the Neolithic (around 3800 BC). Secondly, the ruminant animals that provided this milk—cattle, sheep or goats, or perhaps a combination of all three—were non-native species prior to the Neolithic. They would have had to have been physically shipped, a few animals at a time, over the sea to Ireland.)


This would seem to call into question the idea that it was dairying which gave the later Indo-European migrants into the British Isles an advantage.

 

[bicicleur 2]

LBK didn't have dairy products, it arrivid with Lengyel - Rössen culture, so before Funnelbeaker and British neolithic
This wave may have brought draught animals and the plough as well.
This wave arrived in the Balkans just before Vinca culture.

Indeed corded ware must have brought something else than dairy to justify their arrival.

 

[Aberdeen]

The article is in a 2014 book on Irish Archaeology (the Bronze Age is also covered). This is the link:<br>
<a href="https://www.academia.edu/10191058/Milk_and_molecules_secrets_from_prehistoric_pottery" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">https://www.academia.edu/10191058/Milk_and_molecules_secrets_from_prehistoric_pottery</a><br>
<br>
The main gist of the article is that:<br>
"<font color="#231f20">In other words, dairying was not a farming practice ‘discovered’ or </font><font color="#231f20">developed at a later, more advanced stage of agricultural development, what has been </font><font color="#231f20">referred to as the ‘Secondary Products Revolution’ (e.g. Sherratt 1981). In Ireland, as </font><font color="#231f20">far as we can tell, dairying was present from the beginning of the Neolithic (around </font><font color="#231f20">3800 BC). Secondly, the ruminant animals that provided this milk—cattle, sheep or </font><font color="#231f20">goats, or perhaps a combination of all three—were non-native species prior to the </font><font color="#231f20">Neolithic. They would have had to have been physically shipped, a few animals at </font><font color="#231f20">a time, over the sea to Ireland.)<br>
<br>
<br>
This would seem to call into question the idea that it was dairying which gave the later Indo-European migrants into the British Isles an advantage.</font>

Thanks, Angela. That's a very interesting article. But the idea of extensive crop farming going hand in hand with dairy production seems to me to make more sense than crop farming without dairy production in a pre-horse culture. After all, you need draft animals in order to plough the land, and the only choices are horses, donkeys, burros or some sort of cattle. And if you have cattle for use as draft animals, why not also milk them? In a pre-horse farming culture, without cattle to pull the ploughs and manure the fields, farms will be small and soil quickly exhausted. Although I suppose that could explain why some European populations in the early Neolithic seem to have remained small and experienced frequent population crashes.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Thanks, Angela. That's a very interesting article. But the idea of extensive crop farming going hand in hand with dairy production seems to me to make more sense than crop farming without dairy production in a pre-horse culture. After all, you need draft animals in order to plough the land, and the only choices are horses, donkeys, burros or some sort of cattle. And if you have cattle for use as draft animals, why not also milk them? In a pre-horse farming culture, without cattle to pull the ploughs and manure the fields, farms will be small and soil quickly exhausted. Although I suppose that could explain why some European populations in the early Neolithic seem to have remained small and experienced frequent population crashes.

early farming was very, very primitive
just think and try to imagine how primitive

 

[Aberdeen]

early farming was very, very primitive
just think and try to imagine how primitive

Early farming couldn't have been that primitive or it couldn't have increased farming populations enough to displace hunter gatherer types. The article describes fairly sophisticated farming techniques in Neolithic Ireland, including the use of livestock. And for some reason you mentioned LBK in your previous post and said they didn't have dairy products, but I think you're mistaken. The websites I've looked at re LBK all mention LBK farmers keeping cattle (as well as sheep, goats and pigs) and consuming beef and dairy products.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Early farming couldn't have been that primitive or it couldn't have increased farming populations enough to displace hunter gatherer types. The article describes fairly sophisticated farming techniques in Neolithic Ireland, including the use of livestock. And for some reason you mentioned LBK in your previous post and said they didn't have dairy products, but I think you're mistaken. The websites I've looked at re LBK all mention LBK farmers keeping cattle (as well as sheep, goats and pigs) and consuming beef and dairy products.

http://www.nature.com/news/archaeology-the-milk-revolution-1.13471

first sieves to produce dairy would be found in Europe are dated 7000 years old, at the end of LBK
LBK did not displace HG everywhere
LBK needed fertile and light grounds to work, they were not equiped to work heavier soils
where there were rich fishing grounds, LBK was unable to displace HG
dairy production would have been invented in Anatolia, these sieves represent new arrival of farmers into Europe (Lengyel, Rössen, Hamangia cultures)
they interacted with LBK, but they also exploited new grounds, it was a huge step in productivity

 

[Aberdeen]

Yes, the first Neolithic farmers from the Middle East ate cheese and yogurt instead of drinking milk because they were lactose intolerant. So what's your point? They were still consuming dairy products, which would have given them another source of animal protein. That would have been important to farmers who did only limited hunting and wouldn't have wanted to slaughter any of their cattle as long as they remained useful as draft animals.

 

[Angela]

An abstract from archeology.org on the same topic:
http://www.archaeology.org/news/2904-150116-ireland-neolithic-dairy

"BRISTOL, ENGLAND—Ninety percent of the fats found in Neolithic cooking pots from Ireland came from dairy products, according to a new study conducted at the University of Bristol. “We know from previous research that dairying was an important part of many early farming economies, but what was a big surprise was the prevalence of dairy residues in Irish pots. It looks to have been a very important food source,” said Jessica Smyth of the School of Chemistry. The remaining ten percent of the residues came from beef or mutton fat, or a mixture of milk and meat. “People can obviously cook meat in other ways than boiling it in pots, and there is plenty of evidence for cereal processing at this time, but the Irish dairy signal remains very striking, particularly when you compare it with the continental European data sets. Ireland really does seem to go mad for milk in the Neolithic,” she said. Early Irish farmers were likely to have had one or two imported animals to support their individual households. Those animals may have been cared for as part of a larger community herd. To read about another method of studying prehistoric dairy consumption, see "Dental Calculus Offers Evidence of Milk-Drinking."

I think this may have something to do with the climate in Ireland, which was very conducive to dairy farming. In my own ancestral areas, the cooler, more rainy valleys of the upper Apennines were great for dairying, and they ate lots of cheese and butter. In the sun baked coastal regions of Liguria, they kept cows as draft animals, and did milk them, but not to any great extent, and, in fact, most of the cheese was made with sheep's milk, i.e. pecorino.

True story, the first time my father brought me to his family's valley, I supposedly turned to him and said, "I don't like it here...there are more cows than people". It was true, but very fresh, of course. I was a smart aleck...very indulged by my father.

I was back just this summer and it's even more true now...cows and horses...

 

[bicicleur 2]

Yes, the first Neolithic farmers from the Middle East ate cheese and yogurt instead of drinking milk because they were lactose intolerant. So what's your point? They were still consuming dairy products, which would have given them another source of animal protein. That would have been important to farmers who did only limited hunting and wouldn't have wanted to slaughter any of their cattle as long as they remained useful as draft animals.

my point? did LBK eat cheese and yoghurt before 7000 BP?

 

[Angela]

my point? did LBK eat cheese and yoghurt before 7000 BP?

Where does all this certainty come from? It's certainly not shared by the academics...

Bogucki, Ceramic Sieves of the Linear Pottery Culture and Their Economic Implications
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=04DBBAF364B5355E1FAF36BEFC19EEBF.f03t02

http://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/the-antiquity-of-dairying-in-temperate-europe/

https://www.academia.edu/3410604/Th...ntial_evidence_from_food_residues_on_ceramics

There's dozens more....

 

[Aberdeen]

An abstract from archeology.org on the same topic:
http://www.archaeology.org/news/2904-150116-ireland-neolithic-dairy

"BRISTOL, ENGLAND—Ninety percent of the fats found in Neolithic cooking pots from Ireland came from dairy products, according to a new study conducted at the University of Bristol. “We know from previous research that dairying was an important part of many early farming economies, but what was a big surprise was the prevalence of dairy residues in Irish pots. It looks to have been a very important food source,” said Jessica Smyth of the School of Chemistry. The remaining ten percent of the residues came from beef or mutton fat, or a mixture of milk and meat. “People can obviously cook meat in other ways than boiling it in pots, and there is plenty of evidence for cereal processing at this time, but the Irish dairy signal remains very striking, particularly when you compare it with the continental European data sets. Ireland really does seem to go mad for milk in the Neolithic,” she said. Early Irish farmers were likely to have had one or two imported animals to support their individual households. Those animals may have been cared for as part of a larger community herd. To read about another method of studying prehistoric dairy consumption, see "Dental Calculus Offers Evidence of Milk-Drinking."

I think this may have something to do with the climate in Ireland, which was very conducive to dairy farming. In my own ancestral areas, the cooler, more rainy valleys of the upper Apennines were great for dairying, and they ate lots of cheese and butter. In the sun baked coastal regions of Liguria, they kept cows as draft animals, and did milk them, but not to any great extent, and, in fact, most of the cheese was made with sheep's milk, i.e. pecorino.

True story, the first time my father brought me to his family's valley, I supposedly turned to him and said, "I don't like it here...there are more cows than people". It was true, but very fresh, of course. I was a smart aleck...very indulged by my father.

I was back just this summer and it's even more true now...cows and horses...

I agree that it's probably a climate thing. I've looked at 19th century census reports for both Canada and the U.S and in general dairy farming was more important in Canada, where the cooler climate was more suited for pasture than crop farming prior to the development of hybrid plants that could grow better in a colder climate. And I'm sure that the reason for the difference was climate and not culture because colder parts of the U.S. also had more dairy farming.

 

[bicicleur 2]

Where does all this certainty come from? It's certainly not shared by the academics...

Bogucki, Ceramic Sieves of the Linear Pottery Culture and Their Economic Implications
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=04DBBAF364B5355E1FAF36BEFC19EEBF.f03t02

http://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/the-antiquity-of-dairying-in-temperate-europe/

https://www.academia.edu/3410604/Th...ntial_evidence_from_food_residues_on_ceramics

There's dozens more....

'Ancestral Journeys' by Jean Manco, chapter 6 'Dairy Farming'

'scientific analysis of fat residues on pottery has allowes us to pinpoint the place and time that milking became important'

then she tells the whole story of the spread of dairy farping from Anatolia to Europe

she doesn't talk about sieves though
she must have known about these reports, does she think sieves are no proxy for dairy farming?
aren't you a friend of Jane Manco? couldn't you ask her? i'm curious

 

[Angela]

'Ancestral Journeys' by Jean Manco, chapter 6 'Dairy Farming'

'scientific analysis of fat residues on pottery has allowes us to pinpoint the place and time that milking became important'

then she tells the whole story of the spread of dairy farping from Anatolia to Europe

she doesn't talk about sieves though
she must have known about these reports, does she think sieves are no proxy for dairy farming?
aren't you a friend of Jane Manco? couldn't you ask her? i'm curious

I have great respect for Jean Manco...for her professionalism, for her dedication, and for her good sense, and have recommended her book to others. That doesn't mean and has never meant that I agree with her in every particular. In this case, I am not even saying that dairying was definitely present in the early Neolithic. I am saying that this is disputed or at least questioned by some scholars.

 

[oldeuropeanculture]

The earliest field system found in Ireland "Ceide Fields" dated to the mid 4th millennium BC was created for cattle grazing not grain farming. One of the reasons for original clearing of forests was that they were oak forests and oaks are poisonous to cattle and sheep, particularly acorns which cause kidney failure in these animals (and people if they are not properly leached)...

Also this reopens the question of the exact dating of the disappearance of the land bridge between Ireland and Britain...

 

[Aberdeen]

The earliest field system found in Ireland "Ceide Fields" dated to the mid 4th millennium BC was created for cattle grazing not grain farming. One of the reasons for original clearing of forests was that they were oak forests and oaks are poisonous to cattle and sheep, particularly acorns which cause kidney failure in these animals (and people if they are not properly leached)...

Also this reopens the question of the exact dating of the disappearance of the land bridge between Ireland and Britain...

Although some websites about the ceide fields only mention livestock, others state that the Neolithic farmers who created the ceide field system grew wheat and barley in addition to raising cattle and sheep, so they were probably fairly typical Neolithic farmers, although the climate may have caused them to focus more on livestock than some Neolithic farmers on the continent.

www.ancientworlds.net/aw/Article/1320377

Given that Neolithic populations often had boats, how does this reopen the question of when the landbridge between Ireland and Britain disappeared?

 

[Aberdeen]

Here's one of several websites that talk about Neolithic farmers arriving in Ireland from Scotland by boat. There are other websites that suggest Mesolithic hunter gatherer types probably arrived in Ireland in the same manner, although I don't know whether archeologists have yet found actual boats from the Mesolithic in Ireland. They have found several Neolithic log boats in Ireland - I imagine that any skin boats would have long since disappeared.

www.yourirish.com/history/ancient/neolithic

 

[LeBrok]

Here's one of several websites that talk about Neolithic farmers arriving in Ireland from Scotland by boat. There are other websites that suggest Mesolithic hunter gatherer types probably arrived in Ireland in the same manner, although I don't know whether archeologists have yet found actual boats from the Mesolithic in Ireland. They have found several Neolithic log boats in Ireland - I imagine that any skin boats would have long since disappeared.

www.yourirish.com/history/ancient/neolithic

They had to be some boats tough. They needed to float all the livestock there.