Religion The Koran: Why not to believe it as the WOG (Word of God).

[strongvoicesforward]

Like the Christian Bible, the Koran, too, is filled with an explosion of mind boggling things it wants you to accept as truth or commands coming from a God. Spawned by the Jewish myths and winding geneologies of Adam, Abraham, etc.., it goes about stating falsehoods, lies, deceptions, debasement, and violence -- whose followers, wishing if it were possible, would caste the whole world under cloth head to toe (well, at least all the women) and force us to pray numerous times throughout the day, not to mention stringing our neighborhoods up with wired microphones telling us when to do so -- causing any who may want to have a morning`s sleep without being ?gcalled to prayer?h to wake up, get on the floor and submit to oppression.

If you imagine god to be a god of love -- give the Koran a read and you will soon see there is very little love between its pages -- and definitely not unqualified love without condition. There is always ?ea catch?f. If you already are under it`s heavy weight and shadow, try to get free of it. Some have and it is not impossible. Salmund Rushdie (under threat of death) could avoid it and he has inspired others as well to give it up like a bad habbit.

This thread will focus on those parts of the Koran that fuel skepticism of it. If you want to rebutt some of the points feel free to do so. At the same time, if you have more criticisms that you would like to put up for thought or invite comment on, do likewise.

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*Mycernius had been waiting for me criticise the Koran since months ago, at times asking me "why I wasn`t focusing on the Koran, too." Just didn`t have the time. Now I do and I hope he will be pleased with the balance in my criticisms which he seemed to feel I was lacking in, or the prejudice he felt I was displaying in only focusing on The Bible. This is meant to rectify that somewhat.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

See how the Koran views and debases women:

4:43 O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.​

I don`t think women are so dirty as to make me or anyone need to be forgiven for having touched them or had had sex with them. To have a ?ebook of God?f denegrating half the human population by singling them out and calling them a source of ?gpollution?h doesn`t sound like a very kind thing to say.

Perhaps a God of kindness has nothing to do with it in the Koran. After all, anyone can forgive at times. Takes no great effort needed by and only accomplished by a God. I have forgiven my wife for not taping ?gThe Family Guy?h when I asked. That doesn`t make me a god.

The KorG (Koranic God) is anything but benign.

Woe be to women born in its regional influence. There once a month you are deemed to be dirty in your womanhood.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Women are just naturally becoming dirty throughout the month according to the KorG.

Modern science and now common sense tells us that mentrations are just biological functions naturally occuring within women. While some women may feel a little under the weather at times while menstrating, it is in no way an ?gillness?h. And in no way do all women feel ?gunder the weather?h during their menstrations. Muhammad just doesn`t seem to be very well informed and not very good at qualifying his remarks, instead preferring to catch ALL women up in his remarks.

No place for wiggle room when you are out to oppress half the population of the world by demeaning them.

2:222 They question thee (O Muhammad) concerning menstruation. Say: It is an illness, so let women alone at such times and go not in unto them till they are cleansed. And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah hath enjoined upon you. Truly Allah loveth those who turn unto Him, and loveth those who have a care for cleanness.​

Some women report their most pleasurable times for having sex are during their menstrations. Did the KorG do that as a joke to frustrate women by making their men stay away from them then?

Woe be to the woman wanting to show her love to her husband and satisfy her cravings for sexual pleasure in a land under the shadow of the KorG. She be shunned and considered ill and dirty in need of cleansing and purification. Count ye mythical blessings to have escaped birth there.

 

[rhixs]

While I have only been reading the Qu'ran for fifteen years now and only in imperfect interpretations, I have not found anything false in it and it has strengthened my walk with God.

I think that it is only reasonable to accept certain prohibitions as being products of their time and anyone who has looked into the matter should be aware that the Qu'ran clearly refutes what was the then current attitude towards women and affords them rights and protections that they never knew before.

Read and listen with your heart. Anyone trying to sway anyone to any point of view is doing so out of a personal motivation. As David Bowie sings ... Nail me to my car and I'll tell you who YOU are! Joe the lion made of iron!

 

[strongvoicesforward]

While I have only been reading the Qu'ran for fifteen years now and only in imperfect interpretations, I have not found anything false in it ...

Oh, really? Nothing false?

So, are all things not true just explained away by saying they are "products of their time"?

Saying "menstration" is an "illness" is not "false"?

Saying the sun sets in a muddy place that can be reached is not falsefhood?

18:86 Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.​

I think that it is only reasonable to accept certain prohibitions as being products of their time and anyone who has looked into the matter should be aware that the Qu'ran clearly refutes what was the then current attitude towards women and affords them rights and protections that they never knew before.

So, the Koran is not for the people of today then? Is that what you are saying?

Are morals relative to the time? Rape was not as bad then as it is now? Oppressing women is only bad now? Demeaning them by calling them dirty and ill due to their biology was ok then, but not now?

Read and listen with your heart.

Oh, the tired refrain that charismatic leaders have lead many to suffering!

Why can`t religionists say "read and listen with your mind and reason." I would venture to say that they don`t because "reason" let`s them escape from the clasps of deceit.

Anyone trying to sway anyone to any point of view is doing so out of a personal motivation.

There is nothing wrong with convincing. And, convincing can be done out of non-selfish motives. I will not personally and immediately benefit if someone on this forum abandons Islam.

Swaying through convincing is quite fine. It is the peaceful way. Swaying through coercion, violence, and the threat of violence is what is NOT quite fine. Islam does the the latter.

As David Bowie sings ... Nail me to my car and I'll tell you who YOU are! Joe the lion made of iron!

Yes, the singing poets of our times do have inspirational messages containing varying degrees of wisdom. As nice as they are to the ear however, does not give any credence to truth as it pertains to religion -- and for the Koran particularly as it concerns this thread.

In the end, you have not rescued the verses above.

 

[rhixs]

It is not my wish to "rescue" anything. Either one is open to faith and sees with new eyes or one is blinded by one's short-sighted reliance on the lies of reason and science.

As Peter Gabriel sings in one of my all-time favorite Genesis songs: Me, I'm a lawnmower ... you can tell me by the way I walk ...

 

[d3jake]

looks like your hitting up all major religons for falsehood SVF?

 

[strongvoicesforward]

looks like your hitting up all major religons for falsehood SVF?

Some things just scream out for scrutiny -- espeically when they are the root causes of misery for many. Fraud should be exposed and labeled.

 

[d3jake]

Some things just scream out for scrutiny -- espeically when they are the root causes of misery for many. Fraud should be exposed and labeled.

I have to agree with this... I"m just not one to do it myself. THat's what you're for!
I don't mind pointing out minor inconsistancies of a religon, but I would never tear them apart. I'll debate an issue at hand but I will never insult their physical appearance, or their beliefs.

 

[Elizabeth van Kampen]

What I don't understand is, that when the first Turkish family emigrated to the Netherlands in 1953, they were dressed like all of us in Europe, no kerchief, the lady could show her nice dark hair, yet this family was a Muslim family. I grew up in the largest Muslim country in the world, in Indonesia from 1928 till 1946, all the Indonesian women walked around without kerchiefs, yet they were Muslims and yet they went to their Mosques.
Today most Muslim women cover their hair and walk around in long dresses, and some even cover their faces as well, the young men too walk around in robes. To me it all looks like the Middle East in the Middle Ages. Or maybe it is a sort of a trend?

I do respect most religions, so I do respect good Muslims too, but I can't help it that I find all this dressing up in a Middle Ages way, kind of strange in 2006.
Even little girls look as if they are walking out of a very old Arabian fairy-tale.

Why do so many Muslims return to the Middle Ages since the last 15 years?

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Originally Posted by strongvoicesforward:
Some things just scream out for scrutiny -- espeically when they are the root causes of misery for many. Fraud should be exposed and labeled.​

I have to agree with this...

Thanks. Glad you do.

Some however, think some things should be granted special priviledges and be above scrutiny for fraud. I would ask them: why shouldn`t the things I cherrish be above scrutiny?

I"m just not one to do it myself. THat's what you're for!

lol. Those who are willing to do it are indeed needed. Many wither and give up from doing so when they are accused of being "intolerant" and a "bigot." A few however, will not be turned from doing so.

I don't mind pointing out minor inconsistancies of a religon, but I would never tear them apart. I'll debate an issue at hand but I will never insult their physical appearance, or their beliefs.

Well, some people will find that even pointing out inconsistancies is an "insult." How dare you! Who are you to say something is an "inconsistancy" when every possible inconsistancy has already been dealt with and rationalized away.

You use the word phrase "tear apart" as a pajorative, when in fact it can just be used as an argument skeptical of claims and therefore seeks to expose those claims and put them to rest. The end result is that the point in question is "torn down" (i.e. its validity has been destroyed).

Nothing wrong with that. Religions and different denominations also do the same to each other. Men of 2000 years ago "tore down" the greek Gods so that they could pave the way for their new cults to take hold and spread.

Would you 'insult' the appearance of or "belief" of a people who threw young virgins into a volcano? I would. Could you 'insult' or strongly and harshly criticise a culture that uses a doubtful religion and religious leaders/book as the word of God to justify mutilating the genitals of 12 year old girls so that they could never experience an orgasm and be presented as a good bride to a man (perhaps 20 years older) who has been waiting for them? I could 'insult' a belief like that through well structured criticism and find no remorse in doing so.

We need not travel too lightly upon the sensitivities of others when what they put forth without any evidence causes hardship and misery to others. We are right in scrutinizing and being skeptical of their claims. In fact, it is a duty that we confront those abominations that have been responsible for the suffering and deaths of hundreds of millions. To turn away and mumble "live and let live" is a callous act ignoring those who are forced to live under a system that never offered them the opportunity to chose how they wanted to live.