The kurgan was empty

[Angela]

I am not a geneticist, linguist etc, therefore what I may say below might sound very ignorant. Angela, why do you argue that languages in Europe came from the steppes of Asia? Weren't there are any people in the European continent? If people existed in Europe, I expect them to have been speaking some kind of language.

Diomedes, the steppes run from what is now far-eastern "Europe" into "Asia". We're talking about the landmass known as Eurasia, yes? The division into "Europe" versus "Asia" is part of later often political developments. Today, in that part of the world, the Urals are usually seen as the "border".
l

When the only people in Europe were the WHG, they spoke their own language(s). Then the farmers arrived with their own language(s).
Finally, IE, no matter where it originated, spread over Europe. Modern Europeans descend from people who spoke all these languages. People change languages. Look at the Amerindians in the New World. It's not tied to your dna.

 

[Angela]

berun
I agree with many of your theses. Yes, you were the first to notice that the eastern Yamnaya is quite strange and is not ancestral for existing IE.

Nevertheless,


It's hard to imagine. Yes, in those places probably were PIE, but it was in the Mesolithic and early Neolithic. Then a part of that population descended to the south and formed the Dniepro-Donetsk - Sredniy Stog. The remaining PIE/Paleo-Europeans in north-east were swept/assimilated by the population of pit-comb ceramics. Thus, besides Sredniy Stog and Khvalynsk, nothing remains as a source of Corded Ware. All that is more North - is the Pit-Comb ceramic.

Also, someone had to bring autosomal Corded Ware makeup and light pigmentation genes to Western Europe. R1a is obviously not enough for this, if we consider, for example, Britain.

Most likely, all Europeans come from one small source, such as, for example, the Sredniy Stog settlements.

There is so much wrong with this post it would take forever to refute everything and I don't have the time.

 

[Dov]

There is so much wrong with this post it would take forever to refute everything and I don't have the time.

He-he, sure.

 

[berun]

@ Dov, the case would be to know exact dates for the Russian CW (lato sensu) and its origin.

@ Olympus Mons: PIE in the Caucasus? where is the IE toponymy left and the variety of IE languages there? they left the region en masse ?

 

[Dov]

berun
Not so long ago, I saw data that the very first layers of corded ware are of age as an early yamnaya. But without special details and location. Early mainstream is considered that they are much younger.

added:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Dnieper_culture
Middle Dnieper corded ware culture can be from the Sredniy Stog burials. Territorially they are close. Then the distribution of corded ceramics began to the north, east and west .
It is problematic to send CW from more northern locations, there is a continuous Pit-Comb ceramics in those times there.

 

[berun]

From Mallory's IE Encyclopedy:

The Middle Dnieper culture is an eastern variant of the
Corded Ware cultural horizon (c 3200-2300 BC) and was
situated primarily in the north Ukraine between the other
Corded Ware regional groups and the forest-steppe and steppe
zone cultures. The culture is known from over two hundred
sites, primarily tumulus barrows, some of which have been
inserted into earlier Yamna burials and the cultural substrate
is seen to be both Yamna and late Tripolye. Settlements are
poorly known but would appear to have been small villages
with surface dwellings. Burials were within kurgans with the
deceased usually in the extended, more rarely in the flexed,
position; there is also evidence of cremation from sites in
Belarus. The burials were accompanied by pottery (amphora
and beakers), stone battle-axes and possibly ornaments. Metal
imports appear in the late stages along with ornaments of
amber.

This CW culture is almost older as Yamnaya, but has two interesting issues: an EEF (Tripolye) substrate, and a possible CHG admixture (through Yamnaya, present already in Tripolyans, or coming from the Balkans or the Caucasus). More questions... but it would be great to have Y-DNA from this culture.

 

[Aaron1981]

In an scientific level, the steppe theory proposed by Gimbutas and thereafter reloaded by David Anthony is dead (the kurgan theory 2.0 was about Yamnayans delivering the Germainc languages to the CW culture through the Usatovo culture by a kind of cultural fashion).

The many red and orange alarms were never heard much, but now the final problem was settled by ancient genetics: a sure IE culture as the CW, from where it could split Germanic and Balto-Slavic, had a different Y-DNA than that found in Yamnaya (R1b-Z2105); moreover the steppe cultures possibly linked to the Indo-Iranian branch (Andronovo, Sintashta, Srubnaya) appear to be CW copies in the autosomal and Y-DNA level. The followers of the steppe theory had by some time the hope to find out the CW Y-DNA in the west steppes, along with the right Y-DNA of the Bell Beakers in West Europe, and all speaking the same language ...

Now with the new paper "The genomic history of southeastern Europe" the hope to find and confirm such hopes and theories vanishes. I think it is quite hard to read there:



and



At the Y-DNA level the paper confirms that Yamna was R1b-Z2013 (along ancestor clades) in Samara (x7), Kalmukya (x4), and derived cultures of Staliningrad, Vucedol and Poltavka (x5). The case about Ukranian HGs speaking a form of proto-IE to become Yamnayans is not tenable: the paper states that Ukranian HGs had diverse origins (in Vasilevka there were R1b1a2, I2a1, R1a, I2a2) and had a 31% of WHG in autosomals, such 31% lowered to 1% in Yamnayans, so that only a strong colonization from elsewhere could explain this: even if Yamnayans were true IE speakers, the previous HG population could not be so... and then IE comes from elsewhere. Even in Samara the change is quite obvious: the HG was R1b1a1a (the most eastern R1b), but the Eneolithic samples were Q1a, R1a1 and R1a1a.

The paper suggest to follow the CHG component to Anatolia to find the IE urheimat, but this case is quite difficult to accept: Anatolian imposed over Hatti, Armenian was not local (Urartian placenames have not followed in such language it's own evolutions), and the Caucasus, a catch-all net, is not conserving some unique IE branch (Ossetian is derived from Scythian). The case would be to look further, to the Zagros (as the paper itself also points)... or even in Medieval Russia, if it's the Y-DNA what matters most.

So what is really IE at the end? by now the sure cultures related to such language family display high amounts of R1a and EHG ancestry. The other option left would be to follow the CHG ancestry, its spread, and the clades associated (by now J1, J2). What place would have the R1b-L51 clades is now more difficult to ascertain.

Not exactly. Dereivka and the successor cultures Yamnaya, and Corded Ware are largely R1a, R1b, and I2-M223. What exactly is dead of Anthony or Gimbutas' theory? You're putting far too much emphasis on differences between WHG-EHG when they are largely the same thing. If we aren't differentiating between CHG and Iran_Neolithic, we shouldn't be making a big deal over clinal change over a west to east distribution of very similar hunter-gatherers, because that's all it really is. So after the inhabitants of the steppes absorbed people from the Caucasus they spread as far east as China, but also rebounded west to Corded Ware and Yamnaya south of the Carpathians. That's about all you can really say. It says nothing about language.

 

[berun]

I strongly recommend you to look at what makes diffent WHG from EHG and its dates, otherwise any discussion will have not much sense.

 

[bicicleur 2]

I strongly recommend you to look at what makes diffent WHG from EHG and its dates, otherwise any discussion will have not much sense.

tribes were mingling at the Dnjepr Rapids 10 ka, probably WHG + EHG, way before PIE

the PIE were just a few subclades out of the whole HG population, those who had made contacts with CHG

 

[berun]

The autosomal implies that the Ukranian steppe suffered with the appearance of Yamnaya a similar population replacement as that seen in CW but with a different Y-DNA (the carrier of the CHG share from my point of view). If it's necessary to look to a HG pop with IE it's not in the steppes, now seems rathet clear this point (for me much more than two weeks ago).

 

[Olympus Mons]

@ Dov, the case would be to know exact dates for the Russian CW (lato sensu) and its origin.

@ Olympus Mons: PIE in the Caucasus? where is the IE toponymy left and the variety of IE languages there? they left the region en masse ?

Yes. They left the region em masse. The replacement of the shulaveri by 4900Bc was colossal. Every year we figure they were in bigger numbers. And the replacement happen fast and very deep. Either killed or moved way. I say moved way mostrly to west, southwest and north. What arrived came from South southeast.

 

[berun]

Oh, in this way I could propose that PIE originated in Olympus Mons (the Martian one)

 

[Olympus Mons]

@ Dov, the case would be to know exact dates for the Russian CW (lato sensu) and its origin.

@ Olympus Mons: PIE in the Caucasus? where is the IE toponymy left and the variety of IE languages there? they left the region en masse ?

Oh, in this way I could propose that PIE originated in Olympus Mons (the Martian one)

Ahahahaj. Yes. Great place.

 

[MOESAN]

I just thought of how Japanese could be an IE language!
Example: the word Samurai
in Bosnian Sam(alone) u (into, inside) rai or raj pronounced the same (heaven) Sam-u-raj = Alone-to-Heaven
Telling you, Japanese might be an IE language too.

it's the problem of etymologies; they suffer the cut-off question in analyzed words (syllabes), and so, we need a big enough corpus of words and even sentances before we can believe in the reconstructions - thanks God, it exist some serious rules to apply (among them homogeneity of phonetic evolution) -

 

[Alan]

hmmm...

There was this lately:

The Anthropological Context of Euskaro-Caucasian,
John D. Bengtson
http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/content/journals/10.1163/1573384x-90000008

The idea still keeps coming up. Maybe Colin Refrew's idea could apply to how Basque spread?

The Basque language is most likely Anatolian_Neo derived. the reason why there is allot of similarities between Kartvelian and Basque is not because it shares ancestry from the Caucasus or CHG spoke Kartvelian like language. Contrary Georgian language seems to be a post Neolithic arrival in the region and descend from their Anatolian_Neo like ancestry. Georgian is around ~30% Anatolian_Neo derived. Their main Haplogroup is G2a (likely Anatolian_Neo derived) which makes me assume that they got their language from their ~30% Anatolian_Neo ancestry. This is why Georgians and the Kartvelian language family in general is dominated by G2a and not J or R.

In fact it could even be(and likely) that there were still Anatolian_Farmer languages spoken on the Anatolian Plateau by Late Neolithic, when Anatolia had already absorbed some CHG/Iran_Neo ancestry.

So Georgians can be modeled as ~50% Late Anatolian Neolithic (Kumptepe like as far as I remember) and their language comes most likely from these ancestors. While the Proto Basque speaker left earlier during the early Neolithic.

Imo there is no doubt about the Basques Neolithic origin. They pretty much look like a Middle Neolithic population with very little Steppe Indo European (or CHG/Iran_Neo) Indo European related ancestry. Sardinians seem to stem from exactly the same group, with the difference that they speak a Italic language (which they adopted most likely during Roman Period I can immagine them to have spoken a different language still by Bronze Age, this is why their signature is so quite different from the rest of Italic speakers who have allot more CHG ancestry and some EHG ancestry).

That still makes Basques one of the oldest (if not the oldest) still living European group. Cause I can't think of any European population that derives it's language from Western or Scandinavian H&G.

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

Sardinians and Basques are not as similar as some people think

Sardinians
S. Indian 0
Baloch 0
Caucasian 20
NE Euro 12
SE Asian 0
Siberian 0
NE Asian 0
Papuan 0
American 0
Beringian 0
Mediterranean 60
SW Asian 7
San 0
E African 0
Pygmy 0
W African 0

Basques
S. Indian 0
Baloch 8
Caucasian 1
NE Euro 33
SE Asian 0
Siberian 0
NE Asian 0
Papuan 0
American 0
Beringian 0
Mediterranean 58
SW Asian 0
San 0
E African 0
Pygmy 0
W African 0

Important differences:
Sardinians
Caucasian +19
SW Asian +7

Basques
NE Euro +21
Baloch +8

We don't know definetely anything about Paleo-Sardinian

 

[A. Papadimitriou]

By the way, this is what Pausanias writes about Sardinia

Not far distant from Sardinia is an island, called Cyrnus by the Greeks, but Corsica by the Libyans who inhabit it. A large part of the population, oppressed by civil strife, left it and came to Sardinia; there they took up their abode, confining themselves to the highlands. The Sardinians, however, call them by the name of Corsicans, which they brought with them from home.
[9] When the Carthaginians were at the height of their sea power, they overcame all in Sardinia except the Ilians and Corsicans, who were kept from slavery by the strength of the mountains. These Carthaginians, like those who preceded them, founded cities in the island, namely, Caralis and Sulci. Some of the Carthaginian mercenaries, either Libyans or Iberians, quarrelled about the booty, mutinied in a passion, and added to the number of the highland settlers. Their name in the Cyrnian language is Balari, which is the Cyrnian word for fugitives.

The most confusing part is when he says that Libyans inhabited Corsica. We could assume:
Carthaginians = Semetic (in the south, for example Cagliari, non-native) but their merceneries = Iberian and Libyan, see Balares
Libyans = Berber?*
Iberians = Iberian (possibly related to Basques)
Balares = Iberian + Libyan

The question for me would be what the Ilians could have been.

*I thought about that. If we say that copying mistakes are possible, we can cosider that it was originally *Ligyan (so we're talking about Ligures). I don't know, though, how possible a mistake like that would have been.

 

[Yetos]

@ Dov, the case would be to know exact dates for the Russian CW (lato sensu) and its origin.

@ Olympus Mons: PIE in the Caucasus? where is the IE toponymy left and the variety of IE languages there? they left the region en masse ?

berun
my personal believes, always with no evidence,
were 3 major points,

primary was SW Caucasian lands,
the area of Colhis,

second was Zagros mountains
and 3rd was the North Iranian plataeu

 

[Angela]

The major difference is that the Basques experienced a Bronze Age gene flow from R1b bearing people who have traditionally been held to be steppe Indo-Europeans who were a mix of EHG and CHG. Of course, they probably picked up MN ancestry along the way (EEF and WHG) The latest paper proposes the controversial view that it was a mainly EHG population which brought the R1b. Whatever the case, that migration is imperfectly captured by the modern NE Euro number, imperfect because the calculator is using modern clusters and NE Euro contains CHG and EEF of its own. That's why the percentages are all going to be off. The Baloch number would indicate that a "Caucasus/Iranian like component" did arrive at some point.

As for Sardinia, there is the large Caucasus number and the SW Asian number. Now, the only publically available Sardinian sample is, to my knowledge, the HGDP sample which subsequent and recent papers have shown was drawn mostly from the isolated and remote area which was apparently the refuge of these very EEF looking people. So, it's a bit unlikely that they carry much if any North African or Carthaginian ancestry, whatever the case in other parts of the island.

So, what of the SW Asian? That is easily explained since although Gok samples had none, Oetzi did, and equal to or more than many modern North Italians and Tuscans. He also had 22% Caucasus. Now, Gok's additional WHG might have diluted the Caucasus and West Asian and the same could have happened to the EEF ancestors of the Basques. (It was sometimes suggested that perhaps it was more Cardial in the Sardinians. However, the Mathiesen paper makes clear that I was right to find Paschou at all persuasive, and that Cardial and Danubian EEF split in Europe.)

View attachment 8712

So,where did the additional Caucasus in the Sardinians and Otzi come from? One possibility is the Peloponnesus farmers, who although speculated to be part of the PPNB by way of Cyprus, lean slightly Caucasus. They might have trickled into other waves that went into various parts of Europe. However, they don't seem to have enough Caucasus to account for it.

I think the answer might be that as time went on and CHG/Iranian "Caucasus like" ancestry seeped west and south into Anatolia and the Levant it also made its way into Europe, primarily the Balkans.

I speculated for a number of years that perhaps when the Balkans experienced its population crashes, there was an exit of people west, and they brought their copper metallurgy with them. They brought their genes with them too. That would be a possible source for all that I2a. Only a suggestion, mind you.

 

[berun]

It's necessary to take into account the Sea Peoples to count about a Caucasian plus. Denyen, Peleset (Philistines), Shekelesh (Sikules), Sherden (Sardinian), Teresh (Tursa / Etruscan), Tjekker, Weshesh, Lukka (Lycians), Eqwesh (Achaeans), which seem to have a nucleus in the Aegean.