The look of the three ancestral components of europeans
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Mars
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Back in full topic, the look of ANE (ancestral north eurasians) is puzzling me. My idea is that they could have been looking like modern day Saami... Or, at least, similar to them. Saami are the only known modern population from Europe with no mediterranean/neolithic admixture.
Any ideas?
Any ideas?
MOESAN
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concerning stature, the Cro-Magnons typical men (Paleolith) are about 1m74 (the 1m80 first announced would be an error of calculation)
Combe-Capelle (Mesolith) were apparently smaller: about 1m67 (what is not short until the XX°Century end) -
the Mesolithic people as a whole were shorter than Cro-Magnons, even the ones showing strong links with this old type -
in Western Europe, the most about 1m60 to 1m65, even in Scandinavia for I know (I 'm not aware of this aspect for the recent discoveries), someones shorter (Teviec, Mugem: 1m55 to 1m58) - in Eastern Europe they were higher (no precise data: say, about 1m68 to more than 1m70?) -
the megalithers of last Neolithic, even in Brittany, were higher than the other Mediterraneans; these last ones were about 1m60-1m63 the former ones about 1m67/1m68 - even in North Africa, the 'eurafrican' type was higher than the average population, so to take the only stature to do correlations is hasardous -
concerning physical reconstitutions, the Hunter-Gatherers were not more uniform than for statures: two well segregated phylums seem having given birth to a lot of types by crossings, I suppose - the basic types was a Cro-magnon one, not 100% homogenous for frontal region, but commonly semi-long skulled and very short-broad faced, with broad/low orbits (quadrangular by form) of small size - the 'brünnoid'/capelloid' type (not exactly the same phylum, but very close for forms) was very long-narrow skulled and high-narrow faced with low enough quadrangular orbits, orbits larger than the Cr-Mgn 's ones - and a narrower jaw compared to Cr-Mgn -
it appears that the two phylums knew a trend towards brachycephally, partial or complete, in some regions of Europe without clear reasons - but crossings can produce so amazing types sometimes -
let's take some examples in past: the facial type of La Brana-1 seems very on the Cr-Mgn side when the Loschbour one is on a very brutal 'brünnoid' side - this type perhaps combined to a 'teviecoid' type has made maybe the brutal component of the Seine-Oise-marne cultural complexe until the very Late Neolithic, a culture common with Wallonia and Western Germany at these times -
concerning Oetzi, I already said spite the scientists first conclusions I found he had not a genuine 'mediterranean' head - his automals, analysed through different calculators, with the caution we have to take for this use of arbitrary criteria, seems confirming it was crossed with H-G's and was not a pure 'neolithical man' of South-Eastern origin what is not surprising for his time -
&: concerning the flesh-fat parts of visages I 'm always amazed by the robust selfconfidence of "reconstructers", not always of same level, and sometimes more artists than scientists:
that said, it very possible that the so called 'western mediterraneans' retained some archaic 'cromagnoid' aspects too... maybe not by nature but by crossings poorly traced back by the means we have have now -
Combe-Capelle (Mesolith) were apparently smaller: about 1m67 (what is not short until the XX°Century end) -
the Mesolithic people as a whole were shorter than Cro-Magnons, even the ones showing strong links with this old type -
in Western Europe, the most about 1m60 to 1m65, even in Scandinavia for I know (I 'm not aware of this aspect for the recent discoveries), someones shorter (Teviec, Mugem: 1m55 to 1m58) - in Eastern Europe they were higher (no precise data: say, about 1m68 to more than 1m70?) -
the megalithers of last Neolithic, even in Brittany, were higher than the other Mediterraneans; these last ones were about 1m60-1m63 the former ones about 1m67/1m68 - even in North Africa, the 'eurafrican' type was higher than the average population, so to take the only stature to do correlations is hasardous -
concerning physical reconstitutions, the Hunter-Gatherers were not more uniform than for statures: two well segregated phylums seem having given birth to a lot of types by crossings, I suppose - the basic types was a Cro-magnon one, not 100% homogenous for frontal region, but commonly semi-long skulled and very short-broad faced, with broad/low orbits (quadrangular by form) of small size - the 'brünnoid'/capelloid' type (not exactly the same phylum, but very close for forms) was very long-narrow skulled and high-narrow faced with low enough quadrangular orbits, orbits larger than the Cr-Mgn 's ones - and a narrower jaw compared to Cr-Mgn -
it appears that the two phylums knew a trend towards brachycephally, partial or complete, in some regions of Europe without clear reasons - but crossings can produce so amazing types sometimes -
let's take some examples in past: the facial type of La Brana-1 seems very on the Cr-Mgn side when the Loschbour one is on a very brutal 'brünnoid' side - this type perhaps combined to a 'teviecoid' type has made maybe the brutal component of the Seine-Oise-marne cultural complexe until the very Late Neolithic, a culture common with Wallonia and Western Germany at these times -
concerning Oetzi, I already said spite the scientists first conclusions I found he had not a genuine 'mediterranean' head - his automals, analysed through different calculators, with the caution we have to take for this use of arbitrary criteria, seems confirming it was crossed with H-G's and was not a pure 'neolithical man' of South-Eastern origin what is not surprising for his time -
&: concerning the flesh-fat parts of visages I 'm always amazed by the robust selfconfidence of "reconstructers", not always of same level, and sometimes more artists than scientists:
that said, it very possible that the so called 'western mediterraneans' retained some archaic 'cromagnoid' aspects too... maybe not by nature but by crossings poorly traced back by the means we have have now -
Fire Haired14
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I doubt Sami are as special as advertised. The admixture result of a Sami from Finland at Eurogenes, suggests their northeast Europeans with above average Siberian admixture(over 20%). They have some near eastern ancestry, just their Siberian ancestry really dilutes it. They're the same color as other northeast Europeans(decent % have blonde hair, which we know didn't exist in WHG, ANE, or EEF, it developed to high %'s later), because they're a modern population not a relic of the stone age.
Mars
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Otzi looks somehow "northern balkanic" to me... If this definition makes any sense
My two cents of course. 
Angela
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Otzi looks somehow "northern balkanic" to me... If this definition makes any sense
View attachment 6765
How dare you?!
The first time the reconstruction was posted, before any of the genetic analysis was released, I said that he looked like an old northern Italian/perhaps Appennine peasant who had seen better days. I was booed down, figuratively, of course. Then, he turned out to be very close to Sardinians.Anyway, I do know what you're getting at...but I think it's also a certain type of Alpine look. I did remember and post an ad I had seen for a hotel in the valleys near where his body was found, and I thought that except for the hair color, he had an "Otzi" kind of look.
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/n...beard-at-a-meeting-in-the-news-photo/82092554
http://p2.la-img.com/1417/32291/13172907_1_l.jpg
http://tm410.dd14.firma5.com/daten/herbsturlaub_in_den_dolomiten1.jpg
http://ww2.hdnux.com/photos/23/65/13/5198569/3/628x471.jpg
http://images2.tyrol.tl/images/events/main/content/649e708ec323210f75d2358d7fd10687.jpeg
Despite later migrations, I think some of those phenotypes have persisted in the Alps. Of course, maybe the artists looked around the Tyrol and just captured the look when they did the reconstruction. I think some reconstructions are incredibly bad, although this one at least makes some sense.
I think the Ladino speaking people have a bit of that look as well...
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/23542438.jpg
There's also a whole group of photographs of the famous Sardinian Centenarians. Here is one of them:
Antonio Todde and his wife. He was 112. It was actually her look that I originally had in mind.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/ANTONIO_TODDE.jpg/220px-ANTONIO_TODDE.jpg
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Alan
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I would go with the Kalash look.Technically speaking ANE would look something like 30% North Euro, 30% West Asian, 25% Amerindian and 15 South Indian/Southeast Asian. Saami lack the SouthIndian/Southeast Asian/West Asian features/Genes and only possess North Euro, some Amerindian like genes. Maybe the Proto Saami looked more ANE like but nowadays they are heavilly Germanic admixed.
Kalash look mostly Caucasian but often with Amerindian, Southeast Asian like features.
Like these individuals
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MOESAN
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Sorry FireHaired but the true Saami were very very definitely on the darker side of Europeans - the today Saami are Saami-Finns and Saami-Scandinavians crossings for the most, and they are fairer and higher statured than old Saami (1m54 to 1m56 as a rule) - the old studies about them placed them among the darkest populations of Europe, living in the highlands constituing the vertebral colomn of Scandinavia, at the separation between Norway and Swede - or old scientists were blind all of them (I have some reserves concerning some of them but others made a good work at their time)...
MOESAN
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How dare you?!
your are not to far from truth as I'm concerned
I already said he seems not too 'mediterranean' and I think he has some 'cromagnoid' and 'alpine' increments (but 'alpine' seems a kind of 'cromagnoid' brachycephajlized in a reduced or "foetusized" way when my 'borreby' 1 seems the result of a same process but in a more robust direction - his global 'sardinian' autosomals affiliation doesn't contradict that because external phenotypical aspect can be disrupted from total autosomals mean -
by the way today Sardinians show more than a 'mediterranean' type and also a so called 'archaic mediterranean' type (more in mountainous center of the island) where 'cromagnoid' traits could be traced back - Bulgaria also is considered as showing old 'mediterranean' autosomals, if in smaller percentgaes and shows too some persistant 'cromagnoid' traits along with very typical 'mediterranean' (often 'atlanto-med') and other influences.
Fire Haired14
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The "true Saami" how do you define this? Also, don't accuse me of trying to make the Sami pale.
Sami aren't very special. They're pagean, hunter-herders, no urbanization, no written language, no currency, etc. etc. But European genetics existed before western civilization, so the Sami's primitiveness is only because of recent cultural isolation.They have plenty of relatives in Russia and the Baltic. My point is genetically they're not an ancient isolate, their pigmentation and physical features are probably not unique either.
They have light skin and a decent amount of light hair, like northern Europeans and Andronovo. The dark ones are probably the ones with more east Asian ancestry. The only Sami person Davidski has is from Finland and he/she has over 22% Siberian ancestry(almost 3 times more than average Finn). His ANE is not amazingly high, but it's about highest in Europe because of their Siberian ancestry. Their WHG is very low, at around the same total amount as Spanish. They have hardly any near eastern ancestry because their typical northeast Europeans and their Siberian ancestry dilutes it even more.
If there are very dark Sami and their east Asian ancestry has nothing to do with it, that's interesting because it goes against the northeast European trend. I would expect them to have dark skin, hair, and light eyes if it came from WHG, but remember they don't have a whole lot of WHG ancestry.
Alan
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As far as I know, the highest score of ANE is in Populations like Kalash with 40-45%, Burusho, Baloch with 32-35% and Pashtun with 25-35%.
After that come the North Caucasians with levels of 22-30% and with 25% followed by Northeast Europeans.
After that come the North Caucasians with levels of 22-30% and with 25% followed by Northeast Europeans.
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Alan
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Thats an interesting point because ANE was quite different from Sibirian component. All it showed relation to from the East was Amerindian, South Indian and Southeast Asian like genes but not really with genes nowadays dominant in Sibiria.
Mars
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I think you have a good point here.
Angela
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How dare you?!
your are not to far from truth as I'm concerned
I already said he seems not too 'mediterranean' and I think he has some 'cromagnoid' and 'alpine' increments (but 'alpine' seems a kind of 'cromagnoid' brachycephajlized in a reduced or "foetusized" way when my 'borreby' 1 seems the result of a same process but in a more robust direction - his global 'sardinian' autosomals affiliation doesn't contradict that because external phenotypical aspect can be disrupted from total autosomals mean -
by the way today Sardinians show more than a 'mediterranean' type and also a so called 'archaic mediterranean' type (more in mountainous center of the island) where 'cromagnoid' traits could be traced back - Bulgaria also is considered as showing old 'mediterranean' autosomals, if in smaller percentgaes and shows too some persistant 'cromagnoid' traits along with very typical 'mediterranean' (often 'atlanto-med') and other influences.
Well, that means something coming from you.
As to phenotype versus genotype, I think the correlation depends on the area. In some places, people look pretty homogenous, and so they could be led to believe that the two perfectly correlate. That's not true in Italy, at least. I think the thread I mentioned shows a variety of "looks", but on a genetic test like 23andme, the people are almost identical, as they are in admixture analyses like Dodecad.
As for Otzi, according to recent genetic tests, he's about 25%WHG, with the rest being Ancient Near Eastern Farmer. Even that 75% is not totally Basal Eurasian, however. Looked at another way, he's probably around 44% Basal Eurasian, like the Stuttgart woman. Still, a lot of EEF people probably looked like him.
By the way, since she's the modal for EEF, did you ever draw any conclusions from Stuttgart's skull?
In terms of Sardinia, a paper that will be coming out this week maintains that certain villages in Ogliastra are the most distinctly "Sardinian" part of Sardinia.
See:
The population structure and demographic history of Sardinia in relationship to neighboring populations. J. Novembre, C. Chiang, J. Marcus, C. Sidore, M. Zoledziewska, M. Steri, H. Al-asadi, G. Abecasis, D. Schlessinger, F. Cucca.Numerous studies have made clear that Sardinian populations are relatively isolated genetically from other populations of the Mediterranean, and more recently, intriguing connections between Sardinian ancestry and early Neolithic ancient DNA samples have been made. In this study, we analyze a whole-genome low-coverage sequencing dataset from 2120 Sardinians to more fully characterize patterns of genetic diversity in Sardinia. The study contains one subsample that contains individuals from across Sardinia and a second subsample that samples 4 villages from the more isolated Ogliastra region. We also merge the data with published reference data from Europe and North Africa. Overall Fst values of Sardinia to other European populations are low (less than 0.015); however using a novel method for visualizing genetic differentiation on a geographic map, we formally show how Sardinia is more differentiated than would be expected given its geographic distance from the mainland, consistent with periods of isolation. Applications of the software Admixture show how Sardinia populations differ in the levels of recent admixture with mainland European populations and that there are only minor contributions from North African populations to Sardinian ancestry. Notably the Sardinians from Ogliastra contain a distinct genetic cluster with minimal evidence of recent admixture with mainland Europe.
Here is what those people look like:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3088/2375026490_b87e84b8a3_m.jpg
http://www.lorenzobellu.com/sito/gallerie/eventi/2010 - Cagliari, Sant'Efisio/slides/_PLB3394.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/28vyfxw.jpg
http://www.lorenzobellu.com/sito/gallerie/eventi/2010 - Sassari, Cavalcata Sarda/slides/_PLB5152.jpg
http://www.sardegnaturismo.it/sites/default/files/1_101_20071116110717.jpg?u=%2Fit%2Fpunto-di-interesse%2Fvillagrande-strisaili
Anyone can find the pictures by going to google.it and searching for folk costumes-Ogliastra
When the paper comes out and I know the specific villages, I'll see if I can find anything.
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oreo_cookie
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They remind me somewhat of people from the Caucasus, but there is something else going on there too that I can't quite place. Possibly some Indid influence or some minor Mongoloid.
MOESAN
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I was answering you about a very precise point: hair pigmentation -(there are differences and with great evidence of recent enough crossings- it is not me who says that but anthropologists of a time when crossings were more seldom, sorry) this hair pigmentation isolates them among Scandinavians - concerning skin, the old reports said they are the more often on the european dark skins side, with someones "olivâtre" (not evidently vary swarthy, by the fact the North Asian populations even of evident mongoloid origin shows skins not darker than the most darker southern Europeans) - physically the most typical show some discret mongoloid influences, I think in this component it is more a NOT DIFFERENTIATED population (siberian) before clear breaking between Europoids ("caucasoids") and Mongoloids - I concede this is only a part of their admixture, the other, more heavy, being of diverse Europoid types -
their real origin is debated - surely a lot of ancestors from the region between East Finland and the Urals, what is vaste and can shelter a lot of different types and their different crossings (so autsosomally speaking a lot of EHG and some ANE - and MAYBE TOO a western Europe paleo-mesolithical origin, from Atlantic concerning mothers ((mt-DNA) for the most- it's already old science (2000's AC) and ' have not the current autosomals results (but whose results? all the clans more or less pure in a same bunch??? it s a problem! -
I agree their are a mix as a lot of populations there and the most typical and shorter of them could be the result of some adaptation to climatic conditions but I think that so a result needs some time, more than 4000 or 5000 years - or maybe YES, it could have been accelerated by isolation of a small founder group. But I red somewhere they had some close enough cousins for body aspect in some tribes between N-Russia and the Urals so it could be ancient concerning this group of ancestors and this process for short stature -
I add the Saami of Norway and Swede in ancient time could teach us more than the ones of Finland, for I think -
thanks before hand if you can show me some autosomals analysis, by the way
good night
Alan
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imo it's something more Amerindian and ASI like. For example the first Guy and the women on the second images would be considered as Amerindian mxied in America. Am I right?
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