The Neolithic revolution and haplogroups J1,J2,E3b,G2 and T.

From what I heard the Tartessians where Phoenicians proper whereas the succeeding Turdetanians were later Carthaginians of north-west Africa. The Lusitanians were a Celtic group but I am uncertain of the Iberians origins (not speaking of Celt-Iberi). Certainly Ibernoi was a Celtic group in Ireland I know that much but don't know if there is a link.

yes your marker could be involved with Phoenicians.

But a paper from 2011 says basically that T which is older than R have a good chance of mutating into R1a

part of article below

It seems that the most surprising fact of the above data has not attracted attention.
Fact one, that the basic haplotypes R1a1 and T1 are almost identical:
The feeling that T - is an early R1a1, which mutated DYS426 12 -> 11, but DYS392 = 13 survived from ancient R1a1 (by the way, is the same and R1b).


We associate the basic haplotypes of haplogroup T with the youngest haplogroups on a tree - R1a1 and R1b1a2 the Russian Plain and in Europe, respectively:

12 12 11 - 11 11 - 11 - 11 8 17 17 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12 (R1a, RusR)
12 12 13 - 11 11 - 12 - 11 9 15 16 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 12 11 11 12 (R1b1a2, E
cool.gif


11 12 13 - 11 13 - 9 - 11 8 17 17 8 10 8 12 10 12 12 8 11 12 11 12 (T1)

The similarity of the base haplotype subclades T1 (and other subclades of haplogroup T1) with R1a1 and R1b1a2 immediately obvious, especially in the last panel of the basic haplotypes, particularly haplogroups R1a1 and T1 (identical alleles identified).

Haplogroup T and R1a1 shares according to their base haplotypes of 8-11 mutations. This is - the minimum distance around the tree haplogroup. Distance T and haplogroup R1b1a2 on basic haplotypes - 10-13 mutations. Thus, the place of haplogroup T - at the top of the tree haplogroup.

8-11 mutations with haplogroup R1a1 - is 40600-60700 years between their common ancestors. In this case, the common ancestor of haplogroup T and R1a1 lived between (40600 +5000 +10000) / 2 = 28,000 years ago (60700 +5000 +10000) / 2 = 38,000 years ago. This - the approximate time of haplogroup R, but this pattern is not consistent with current knowledge of the phylogeny of haplogroups R and T. But phylogenetics is not consistent with the view base haplotype haplogroup. It is clear that the experts it needs to be carefully considered, and possibly make adjustments. Haplogroup T definitely does not fit into an existing tree haplogroups after a series of 2009-2011, side moves.

Literature

Klyosov, AA (2011) Haplotypes of R1b1a2-P312 and related subclades: origin and "ages" of most recent common ancestors. Proceedings of the Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy, v.4, No. 6, 1127-1195.


so
between T and R1a there are 9 mutations
9 :2 =4,5 = 18,000 years ( at 4000 years per mutation change)
 
I have found that the T in the Veneto region/alps can be explained by two factors: 1. The Adriatic Enetoi. 2. A nearby Phoenician trading post on the Venetian coast.
 
I have found that the T in the Veneto region/alps can be explained by two factors: 1. The Adriatic Enetoi. 2. A nearby Phoenician trading post on the Venetian coast.

The Phoenician trading post was tergeste ( trieste ) which was a mix of Mycenaean, venetic and liburnian traders ............but the word Tergeste is illyrian word meaning market place
 
What I find interesting is that certain isolated tribes on Madagascar have as high as 55% T. When looking for a source, I could only find the 700 A.D. Invasions/alliance of "Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians" that left a lasting mark on the island and promoted slave trade. I also was curious to see that the islands first inhabitants were austronesians that sailed all the way from Indonesia.
 
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This does indeed reinforce a Persian gulf link for hg T.
 
The Anteony of Madagascar have as much as 22% T and 10% J1 from the Arabs I prior mentioned, a proof these two haplogroups are found more or less in the same general regions.
 
J1 is found at 16% in the Antalaotra and 25% in the Anteony. T1 is found in 10% of Antalaotra and a whopping 55% in the Anteony. According to the study :

"T1 is found mainly in the Middle East (Palestine, Lebanon, Oman, Turkey, southern Iran), North Africa (Egypt, Morocco), sub-Saharan Africa (especially in eastern Africa: Ethiopia, Sudan, Tanzania, Uganda), and Europe [18,36,44–49]. It has also been described in India and China [34,40,50]."

Notes on the high J1/T combination found: The ones associated with J1 were shared with various populations from northern Africa (2), the Middle East (6), India (3) and Europe (1). Finally, haplotypes corresponding to T1 haplogroup were shared with a population from Africa and various populations from the Middle East (6), Southeast Asia (6) and Europe (1)


"Two Median-Joining Networks were computed using data on the minimal haplotypes (DYS19, DYS389i, DYS389ii, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393) in order to localize the Antemoro haplotypes belonging to clades J1 and T, relative to the haplotypes of these same clades in various geographic areas (Figures 6 and 7). By using the minimal haplotype, the Antemoro diversity of the haplogroup J1 is reduced to one haplotype. It was observed that this lineage was not positioned at the end of a branch (Figure 6). This haplotype is found in populations from the Middle East (Cyprus, Turkey and Palestine). On the network, the Antemoro were connected to individuals from Turkey, Cyprus, Palestine, Comoros, Dagestan, Iraq, Italy, Portugal, Qatar, Kuwait, southern Pakistan, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, Arabic, Comoros, Saudi Arabia, Ethiopia and Portuguese Jews. For haplotypes belonging to clade T (Figure 7), it also appeared that the Antemoro were not positioned at the ends of branches. Two Antemoro haplotypes were found in the Middle East (Israel, Lebanon and Palestine). Another haplotype was similar to an individual from Angola. These lineages were linked to individuals from Israel, Spain and Lebanon and on the outgoing branches Antemoro lineages were connected to individuals from Europe, Brazil, Zambia, northern Africa and Lebanon."

Haplogroup J1 is predominant in Middle East, and also very frequent in North and Northeast Africa, Europe, India and Pakistan [42][64][65]. The T1 haplogroup, found at very low frequency in the world, seems to have a Southwestern Asia origin and to be associated with many demographic processes such as the spread of agriculture, the Assyrian and Babylonian exiles and the Jewish Diaspora [49]. Its presence in eastern Asia could be due to commercial and cultural exchanges via the former Silk Road [50]. Currently, it is found mainly in the Middle East but also in eastern Africa, northern Africa and probably in other regions that have been in contact with these geographic areas. However, the J1 Median-Joining network on the minimal haplotype showed that the J1 haplotype in the Antemoro corresponded exactly to those found in individuals from Cyprus, Turkey and Palestine (Figure 6) and was close to some haplotypes from the Comoros. The study by Msaidie (2010) [43] on Comoros populations showed the presence of haplogroups J1 in this area and the author deduced from Comoros populations haplogroup frequencies analysis that the gene flow would be compatible with an origin from Iran. We can thus assume that these haplotypes appear to have a common genetic origin. The Median-Joining network for T1 haplotypes links these lineages to Israel, Lebanon and Palestine. These results are also consistent with the low FST values between Anteony and Antalaotra and populations from Middle East/Southwest Asia. The combination of these two lineages (J1 and T1) tends to converge to an origin in the PERSIAN GULF or Middle East.

Study name:


Tracing Arab-Islamic Inheritance in Madagascar: Study of the Y-chromosome and Mitochondrial DNA in the Antemoro.
 
Also this link must be read. Only then will you understand the link between the Arab slave trade on Madagascar and Persians from the straight of Hormuz region, including, yes, Oman and United Arab Emirates.

http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/RemarkableWriting/MadeorMarred.pdf

read it and a clear link will be made between Madagascar slaves and the Persian gulf (Omani Arabs and shirazi Persians). It is stated numerous times that the slave trade took place from Persian gulf since forever.

this is a very old document. The Wikipedia map was correct, Persian gulf is highest T concentrations.
 
It may just be associated with Zoroastrian Persians and agnostic mandeans; pre Islamic middle easterners that may have been whipped out. Basically the straight of Hormuz between southern Iran and the tip of Oman was everything for centuries in terms of the original Arabic slave trade, with Hormuz being the main port. Long text on the origins of slave trade on Madagascar, worth a read.
 
Now that I think of it, it has a VERY Persian gulf distribution; Oman (10%) United Arab Emirates (10%) parts of south-west-central Iran (10-15%).

read on history of Arab slave trade on Madagascar (T is VERY present in multiple tribes that claim middle eastern/Arab descent.)

http://www.e-family.co.za/ffy/RemarkableWriting/MadeorMarred.pdf

if T is so present on Madagascar, parts of Mozambique, Somalia, Ethiopia, it is because of Arabic genetic input from the slave trade. This document zeroes in on the slave port of Hormuz in the Persian gulf as the source for these "Arabs" found in the source of gnostic mandeans, Zoroastrian Persians and Persians in general.
 
What I think is these T men were ancient Elamites that turned into Zoroastrians and resisted Islamic religion so many fled to India and other places, always a possibility.
 
In other words, if T is present at 20-55% in certain tribes on Madagascar, and the only middle easterners to reach the area were Omanis and Persians....it's evident where this T would have come from. The prior austronesians of Indonesia (nor any other group to reach the island) would NOT have brought such a high concentration of T1 haplotypes (Omanis and the Persians DID). There may even have been "arabized jews" among them and several tribes have legends of being founded by Saudi Arabians from Mecca, but the overwhelming bulk were Omani Arabs and Persians. The T1 haplotypes in the above study found in the Antemoro people correlate heavily with samples from "Israel, Lebanon and Palestine" which is mighty suspiciously similar to Phoenicians if you ask me. Their founding legend though says that their origins are to be found in men from Mecca (Red Sea coast, western Saudi Arabia.)
 
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Particularly I see a link between Zoroastrians that developed out of Elamite civilization for likely T candidates, as they later migrated towards India as well.
 
Another interesting thing is that these migrants were pinpointed precisely, coinciding with multiple studies: Omani Arabs (8%), Abu-Dhabians of UAE (10%), Shiraz Persians (10% T), Kerman Zoroastrians (14%), Izeh Bakhtiaris/Lurs (13%). Urmia Assyrians also have 10%. South-west Armenia (12%). Iraqi region of Al-Qadisiyah actually had 9% and same for Kurds of kurdestan in one study. One study found 14% of Iranians from Isfahan, 13% of eastern turkey Kurds and 12% of Palestinians. A few isolated sites in the Caucasus had quite elevated frequencies such as the Lezgins of Dagestan (28%).
 
Another interesting thing is that these migrants were pinpointed precisely, coinciding with multiple studies: Omani Arabs (8%), Abu-Dhabians of UAE (10%), Shiraz Persians (10% T), Kerman Zoroastrians (14%), Izeh Bakhtiaris/Lurs (13%). Urmia Assyrians also have 10%. South-west Armenia (12%). Iraqi region of Al-Qadisiyah actually had 9% and same for Kurds of kurdestan in one study. One study found 14% of Iranians from Isfahan, 13% of eastern turkey Kurds and 12% of Palestinians. A few isolated sites in the Caucasus had quite elevated frequencies such as the Lezgins of Dagestan (28%).

Latest percentage of T in assyrians............note the top 4 markers , all migrational to europe

N=120--(1/16/14)
25.0% -- R1b
17.5% -- J1
15.0% -- T
14.2% -- J2
7.5% -- E1b1b1
7.5% -- G
4.2% -- R2a
4.2% -- Q1b
2.5% -- R1a
0.8% -- F
0.8% -- L
0.8% -- I2
 
Hello ,
my name is Mami and I comme from Madagascar .
I have read about these dna's Malagasy with his haplotypes groups .
So , I want to suggest that I've heared by the family about our ancestors .
They were in Egypt with Moise and went to Israel .
After , they went to Babylon as the Bible says .
After , they went to Yemen and Burma , India to Borneo and Madagascar .
So , we are too the last tribe of Israel like Bnei Menashe , benne Israel , jews of Yemen , falashas ...
Some of us were converted recently to our original religion : the judaism .
So , can the science proove this exodus ?
Thank you .
 
Hello ,
my name is Mami and I comme from Madagascar .
I have read about these dna's Malagasy with his haplotypes groups .
So , I want to suggest that I've heared by the family about our ancestors .
They were in Egypt with Moise and went to Israel .
After , they went to Babylon as the Bible says .
After , they went to Yemen and Burma , India to Borneo and Madagascar .
So , we are too the last tribe of Israel like Bnei Menashe , benne Israel , jews of Yemen , falashas ...
Some of us were converted recently to our original religion : the judaism .
So , can the science proove this exodus ?
Thank you .
Yes, with science of population genetics of ancient people. In the future, but not yet, will be able to trace everyone's ancestry to the group, but most likely to many groups of origin. If you are really curious about your origin, I advise you to do a genetic tests in companies like "23andMe". You will learn a lot about your genetics and it should answer your question whether you a related to Jews.
Welcome to Eupedia Mami.
 

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