The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early Europea

[bicicleur 2]

Surprisingly, the Ukrainian individuals don;t really feature as sources. It could be quality issues, but maybe they were not R1's ?"

Angela, I don't see the composition of the Ukrainians in your list.

Maybe the 10.8 ka Ukrainian HG was pré-EHG, see my post 168 :

Ukraine HG was not R1, but I2a2a, a remnant of the earlier WHG , but autosomal he is half EHG, so I guess R1 was already in that area too.
Would the I2a2a in Yamna have been a remnant of this branch?

David Anthony speaks in his book about a war between 3 tribes for control over the Dnjepr-Rapids area some 10 ka.

The Ukrainian N1 isn't any more EHG than the HG though.

 

[Angela]

Angela, I don't see the Ukrainians in your list

That's all there was in that post, Bicicleur. He may have done others later; I didn't take the time to read the whole thread.

I've wondered if perhaps the "CHG like" ancestry went up along the Caspian or Black Sea coasts, although there are passes through the Caucasus as well. It's like the Alps. It's a barrier, but not an impermeable barrier. In Italy, along with the passes, you can make an end run around the mountains, especially along the eastern border. That's the route the Langobards took.

"

• Darial Pass
• Marukhis Ugheltekhili
  
  43.38°N 41.37°E)
• Pereval Klukhorskiy 2,786 m (9,140 ft),
  
  43.26°N 41.80°E
• Mamison Pass 2,820 m (9,250 ft),
  
  42.72°N 43.80°E
• Jvris Ugheltekhili 2,379 m (7,805 ft),
  
  42.50°N 44.45°E
• Dübrar Pass 2,209 m (7,247 ft),
  
  40.96°N 48.63°E"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Caucasus#Passes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Caucasus#/media/File:Kaukasus.jpg

 

[johen]

The blue zone yamna related people are the most archaic people than EHG. So Russian anthropologist named them Paleo European. (Cromagnoid or proto-Europid by western scholars)
Even if they have the same hg or gene with the other East Hunter gatherer, I think the EHG or other HG could not be ancestors of yamna and afanasievo group.

Afanasievo Culture
an Aeneolithic culture of Southern Siberia found in the Minusinsk Basin and the Altai from themiddle of the third to the beginning of the second millennium B.C.; contemporary with theKelteminar culture, the Pit culture, and the Catacomb culture. Named for a burial ground atMount Afanasievo near the village of Bateni in the Khakass Autonomous Oblast. Unlike thesurrounding Mongoloid population, the tribes of the Afanasievo culture were of the so-called Paleo- european type.
Kiselev, S. V. Drevniaia istoriia luzhnoi Sibiri, [2nd ed.]. Moscow, 1951.
Istoriia Sibiri s drevneishikh vremen do nashikh dnei, vol. 1. Leningrad, 1968.

The oldest anthropological objects from the Altai and Minusinsk, attributed to about 2,000 B.C. and belonging to the period of the Afanas'evo culture are characterized by pronounced traits of the Europoid peoples. Twenty-four skulls from Afanas'ev sites possess similar characters. In addition to such Europoid traits as a prominent nose and anorthognathous, relatively short and unflattened face, the Afanas'evo skulls have an elongated for and are massive. The latter is expressed in a greater facial breadth, a greater slant of the forehead, and in highly developed supraorbital crests. This combination of characters is unknown among the modern European races but occurs in the Upper Paleolithic period. The closest analogy to the Afans'evo skulls offered by the Cro-Magnon type of western Europe. Since all Afanas'evo skulls belong to this type with no Mongoloid admixture, it is most probable that the ancient inhabitants of western Siberia belonged to this type.

Debetz (1936), and Alexeev and Gokhman (1987) identified a so-called CroMagnon variety among the Bronze and Iron Age skeletal materials of European Russia and southern Siberia. This variety that combined the cranial robustness with a broad face, had its roots in the local Upper Palaeolithic

This afanasievo one is so peculiar:
1. elongated
2. 2 sample with EDAR mutation
3. two strains of yersinia pestis
4. anthropologically extremely close to Aryan R1a-z93 (srubna) and Tarim basin R1a 2,000bc
5. to have botai horse domestication culture
6. coexist with okunevo before 3,500bc
7. BUT not local culture (the most important part,"culture" than anthro or genetics.)

 

[Tomenable]

In total, there are 11 known samples of R1a and R1b which are at least 6000 years old.

The vast majority - seven - among the oldest samples of R1a and R1b are from this area:

Outside of this area - 1x R1b in Villabruna, 1x R1b-V88 in Spain, 2x R1a in Lokomotiv.

And that's all when it comes to R1a/b samples older than 6000 or at least 6000 years old.

So the odds are that R1b-M269/L23 and R1a-M198/M417 both originated in East Europe.

Update:

1) Karelia, ca. 8850-8000 (avg. 8425) years ago - R1a
2) Latvia, ca. 7800-7600 (avg. 7700) years ago - R1b
3) Samara, ca. 7650-7560 (avg. 7605) years ago - R1b
4) Latvia, ca. 7250-6800 (avg. 7025) years ago - R1b
5) Khvalynsk, ca. 7200-6000 (avg. 6600) years ago - R1b
6) Khvalynsk, ca. 7200-6000 (avg. 6600) years ago - R1a
7) Ukraine, ca. 6470-6290 (avg. 6380) years ago - R1a
8) Latvia, ca. 6200-5930 (avg. 6065) years ago - R1b
9) Smolensk, around 6000 (avg. 6000) years ago - R1a

 

[Tomenable]

This new find increases the chances that Western Yamna / Ukrainian Yamna will be full of R1a.

Remember, that so far we do not have any Yamnaya samples from Ukraine. Only from Russia.

 

[johen]

This new find increases the chances that Western Yamna / Ukrainian Yamna will be full of R1a.

Remember, that so far we do not have any Yamnaya samples from Ukraine. Only from Russia.

I think so. Continually R1a and R1b would be found in East Europe and middle East

In Hotu cave of Iran, (where J was found. The J might be related to Karelian J.)
Candian professor mentioned that lots of the same pottery type were found in middle East as I remembered.

==> However, important thing is the blue and green line, not Karelia and Latvia HG line, b/c the blue yamna related peoples are related to IndoEuropean as cromagnon-type European being close to 2 ANEs.

 

[Tomenable]

So far there is no any Pre-Bronze Age R1b in the Middle East.

We have a lot of Neolithic samples, but no R1b among them.

The only R1b samples from the Middle East known so far are:

I1635 - Kura Araxes culture, Armenia, 2619-2465 BC
RISE417 - Middle Bronze Age Armenia, 1906-1698 BC
RISE397 - Late Bronze Age Armenia, 1048-855 BC
F38 - Iron Age Teppe Hasanlu, Iran, 971-832 BC

You should start getting used to East European origin of R1b.

=====================================

Stage IV of Indo-European expansions (I added the main haplogroups for each culture):

It is also possible, that Vucedol was just R1b-P312, and R1b-U106 was in Corded Ware:

Here is my map showing the earlier stages of IE expansions (including Proto-Anatolians):

Vucedol was the main source of R1b-P312 - ancestral to R1b found in Bell Beakers:

 

[johen]

So far there is no any Pre-Bronze Age R1b in the Middle East.

We have a lot of Neolithic samples, but no R1b among them.

The only R1b samples from the Middle East known so far are:

I1635 - Kura Araxes culture, Armenia, 2619-2465 BC
RISE417 - Middle Bronze Age Armenia, 1906-1698 BC
RISE397 - Late Bronze Age Armenia, 1048-855 BC
F38 - Iron Age Teppe Hasanlu, Iran, 971-832 BC

You should start getting used to East European origin of R1b.

Cromagnon UP type of R1b could not originate in the Middle East.

My issue here is where the UP type appeared even if the type discontinued after LGM.

Craniometric analysis of European Upper Palaeolithic and Mesolithic samples supports discontinuity at the Last Glacial Maximum:

The Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) represents the most significant climatic event since the emergence of anatomically modern humans (AMH). In Europe, the LGM may have played a role in changing morphological features as a result of adaptive and stochastic processes. We use craniometric data to examine morphological diversity in pre- and post-LGM specimens. Craniometric variation is assessed across four periods—pre-LGM, late glacial, Early Holocene and Middle Holocene—using a large, well-dated, data set. Our results show significant differences across the four periods, using a MANOVA on size-adjusted cranial measurements. A discriminant function analysis shows separation between pre-LGM and later groups. Analyses repeated on a subsample, controlled for time and location, yield similar results. The results are largely influenced by facial measurements and are most consistent with neutral demographic processes. These findings suggest that the LGM had a major impact on AMH populations in Europe prior to the Neolithic.

 

[MarkoZ]

You should start getting used to East European origin of R1b.

Surely by R1b you mean P297?

 

[halfalp]

Why people continually linked admixtures and y-dna ?

 

[LeBrok]

Well, I thought I'd see what some other people are saying.

This is a very interesting analysis from anthrogenica, and from a poster who seems very knowledgeable and capable, Gravetto-Danubian. I hope he doesn't mind my reposting it.

"Corded_Ware_Estonia:RISE00
Hungary_HG:I1507 31 %
Samara_HG:I0124 21.4 %
Kotias:KK1 18.85 %
Hungary_N:I1498 18.75 %
Iran_Hotu:I1293 9.95 %
Villabruna:I9030 0.05 %


Latvia_LN1:ZVEJ28
Kotias:KK1 42.5 %
Motala_HG:I0012 34.1 %
Samara_HG:I0124 23.4 %
Villabruna:I9030 0 %
Loschbour:Loschbour 0 %



I will check later with weighted data and see how it differs - (results might be more optimal).

But it looks the main source of population movement in the Late Copper - early Bronze Age was something Kotias-like ("CHG") - which mixed into middle Neolithic central European populations with high WHG (i'd look to yet unsampled cultures from the northern Balkans, Ukraine and Poland - eg GAC) as far as BB Czech & Hungary BA go.

Motala admixture also comes into play in some recipients. Whilst some would query this, it makes sense given the presence of haplogroup I in Nordic LNBA and Hungary BA. Shall see when we get Balkan Meso-Neolithics.

EHG is most pertinent for CWC, in conjunction with CHG , but EHG is also evident in some of the BBs and NordicLNBA. Otherwise it isn't as expansive

Surprisingly, the Ukrainian individuals don;t really feature as sources. It could be quality issues, but maybe they were not R1's ?"

As I said about two years or more ago, as the actual Indo-Europeans, 50% and more "CHG" (some of the newer samples seem to be almost 60% "CHG") moved into northern and central Europe, they encountered, and admixed with, large groups of remnant WHG groups, and in some places highly WHG admixed MN groups, which is why the "CHG" component dropped. These people were certainly inclusive in their mating practices.

As for Latvian Corded Ware, it looks to me like an admixed CHG/EHG group that then mixed with WHG. It was indeed heavier on CHG than some other groups, so on balance I'd say a steppe group that was perhaps heavier CHG than others.

I think they made Kotias/CHG the main feature here. The way they calculate Kotias, the Samara should had Kotias at 20% already (due to Baloch and some NE), EEF should have Kotias at 25% (due to high Caucasian), Yamnaya at 50%, Iranian Farmer at 75%. In this case big part of Kotias could have come to Latvia via EEF. That's why their stats show only 15% EEF in modern Latvians and only 23% in Ukrainians. Also 0% of Iranian Neolithic. Their Kotias like admixture is already subtracted from EEF and Iranian Farmer. I'm not too thrilled with that.

If we add Kotias from Samara 20% to Kotias of EEF 25%, we get 45% of combine Kotias in their mixture. Pretty much what Latvia LN1 has. The road to LN1 is probably more complicated than that, but in jest I don't see how pure Kotias like h-g could have survived till Mid Neolithic in trans caucasia, surrounded by farmers, and wandered North to Latvia to mix with WHG?

 

[Tomenable]

Westward expansion of R1b-P312 from Vucedol:

Surely by R1b you mean P297?

And P297 is directly ancestral to M269.

 

[LeBrok]

Why people continually linked admixtures and y-dna ?

Haplogroups are part of admixture, and indication of people movement.

 

[halfalp]

Yes, but why y-dna and not mtdna haplogroups ?

 

[Alpenjager]

The vast majority of Latvia-Ukraine-Russia HG have been R1, with only singleton I2a2a, singleton J1 and singleton Q1a.

But that I2a2a was later found also in Catacomb culture in Ukraine, so it survived and became part of the PIE community.

Also, we have the 1st sample of R1a in the Western Steppe - Ukraine_N1 with R1a1-M459* was Dnieper Donets culture:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper–Donets_culture

Frequency doesn't matter in this stage, really only matters when these populations firstly intermingled each other.

 

[Tomenable]

Yes, but why y-dna and not mtdna haplogroups ?

MtDNA as well, but mtDNA is more mixed and it is much harder to determine how those migrated.

 

[MarkoZ]

Yes, but why y-dna and not mtdna haplogroups ?

Part of it because amateurs like to imagine all kinds of licentious scenarios involving mass rape & extreme polygamy (I recently encountered one such amateur speculating about ancient 'breeding dynasties' ).

Another reason is that the mutation rates in the regions pertaining the Y-DNA & mtDNA haplogroups respectively are so different. mtDNA haplogroups acquire mutations at a much slower rate, so they allow for only a very general picture of pre-historic migrations.

 

[Alpenjager]

CHG in the Ukraine Dnjepr rapids, it makes sense to me
I expected it to be in the Dnjepr-Donets culture because of presence of mtDNA H

Perhaps, you want to see my mtDNA H (xH5) and HV (xH5, HV0) charts:

 

[halfalp]

Part of it because amateurs like to imagine all kinds of licentious scenarios involving mass rape & extreme polygamy (I recently encountered one such amateur speculating about ancient 'breeding dynasties' ).

Another reason is that the mutation rates in the regions pertaining the Y-DNA & mtDNA haplogroups respectively are so different. mtDNA haplogroups acquire mutations at a much slower rate, so they allow for only a very general picture of pre-historic migrations.

So whats the most logical correlation between autosomal admixtures and both y-dna and mtdna haplogroups ?

 

[Brennos]

This new find increases the chances that Western Yamna / Ukrainian Yamna will be full of R1a.

Remember, that so far we do not have any Yamnaya samples from Ukraine. Only from Russia.

It was quite obvious that we would find R1a in Ukraine Yamna-like cultures. The problem - and I think to advocate many people's thought - is where we will find R1b-L51.

You wrote that, probably, R1b-P312 would have started in Vucedol and R1b-P297 would have started in Eastern Europe... but R1b-M343? And R1b-L51? And what about R1b-V88? Too many problems...

I suppose, from your maps, that R1b-M269 could have been hiding somewhere in the middle between the Ukrainian R1a and the Khvalynsk samples. It remains the problem of that italian R1b from Villabruna... which Genetiker stated as pre-P297, so apparently ancestral to those Latvian samples.