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The Neolithic Transition in the Baltic Was Not Driven by Admixture with Early Europea

Tomenable said:
Even if that H is true, it is still not specific enough to conclude anything from it.

Which subclade of H was that? This singleton H is as irrelevant as Y-DNA singleton J1 from Karelia.

The vast majority of mtDNA in Upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic Europe were U.
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Why would you doubt it?

I wouldn't speak of a majority when the sampling is so patchy, and completely absent from the archaeological sites that are really important. Ever wonder why the UP phases have French names?
 
MarkoZ said:
I think that flogging the dead ANE horse doesn't make much sense at this point. ADMIXTURE analyses have shown that the Karelian hunters are but Scandinavian hunters with some South-West Asian and minor non-West-Eurasian input, perfectly explaining their behaviour in the PCA.
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If that was the case Malta boy and Native Americans wouldn't be significantly more related to KareliaHG than to MotalaHG. KareliaHG is genetically the same as SamaraHG, KareliaHG has no unque relation to MotalaHG. No analysis gives KareliaHG Basal Eurasian or any type of West Asian admixture. No analysis gives KareliaHG non-West Eurasian ancestry.

MarkoZ said:
Statistical models involving moderns are necessarily going to fall short because the right ancestral populations haven't been sampled in most cases and, also, due to the general loss of heterozygosity. You and others should care less about the narrative and more about the data.
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Multiple methods, which aren't dependent on modern populations, give Karelia HG loads of ANE. KareliaHG is basically a WHG and ANE mixture.
 
@Tomenable,

The H from Mesolithic Karelia is real.
 
What a dumb I'm, just trying to show the Siberian origin of all or many R1a by archaeology and just they came with their spouses: 5 Asian women in Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov, two in Karelia and 3 in Dnieper-Donets. The majority were C.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_C_(mtDNA)
 
I have created a proxy for Ukrain HG/N and Latvian HG in one of David's D-stat spreadsheets based on the EHG/WHG proportions David posted for them earlier.

D-stats do a better job at differentiating EEF, CHG, WHG, EHG than PCA and the ADMIXTURE test Basal rich K7. In those methods EEF absorbs WHG and CHG, CHG absorbs EEF and EHG. D-stats don't have that problem.

Here's a spreadsheet with results using Ukraine HG/N, Latvian HG.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1n1K24L3y6ZpUG6p1VFHurJPcvB-PoQ0HOOd7eWU4Ris/edit#gid=0

Corded Ware Germany scores 20% Ukraine N when modelled with early Neolithic/Mesolithic genomes. But they score only 6% when modeled with Yamnaya Samara and Esperstedt MN. Hungary BA probably has a lot of Ukraine HG-type stuff but we've already known that for a while.
 
Tomenable said:
U8 in North Caucasus is from WHG admixture. U8 was also present in Upper Paleolithic Western Europe.

Georgia is a different story because it is separated from Europe by mountains. Unlike North Caucasus.
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I think that U8 is too much old to be relying with admixtures. Remember that Gravettian context in Central Europe and Italy was only U8a, and U8c show his face in north iberian peninsula in magdalenian context. U8b maybe never goes in europe before neolithic with his siblling K.
 
Fire Haired14 said:
If that was the case Malta boy and Native Americans wouldn't be significantly more related to KareliaHG than to MotalaHG. KareliaHG is genetically the same as SamaraHG, KareliaHG has no unque relation to MotalaHG. No analysis gives KareliaHG Basal Eurasian or any type of West Asian admixture. No analysis gives KareliaHG non-West Eurasian ancestry.
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You might want to look the papers instead of parroting everything written on Polako's blog.



Multiple methods, which aren't dependent on modern populations, give Karelia HG loads of ANE. KareliaHG is basically a WHG and ANE mixture.
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You don't seem to understand that ANE is very old and very mixed. ADMIXTURE shows that the bulk of Karelia's ancestry comes from WHG,
 
Angela said:
Well, I thought I'd see what some other people are saying.

This is a very interesting analysis from anthrogenica, and from a poster who seems very knowledgeable and capable, Gravetto-Danubian. I hope he doesn't mind my reposting it. (...)
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More from the same user, Gravetto-Danubian:

Gravetto-Danubian said:
I don't know what to think anymore, because the optimal fit I get for ancient Bell Beaker is something akin to:

Bell_Beaker_Czech:RISE566
Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32 40.1 %
Kotias:KK1 27.9 %
LBK: 24.55 %
Karelia_HG:I0061 3.9 %
Hungary_CA:I1497 3.55 %

Bell_Beaker_Germany:I0108
LBK_EN:I0026 40.5 %
Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32 25.95 %
Kotias:KK1 15.45 %
Latvia_MN1:ZVEJ26 8.4 %
Karelia_HG:I0061 7 %

just to be sure it's not a fluke, lets try a modern western European group:

Dutch
Hungary_CA:I1497 38.6 %
Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32 36.25 %
Kotias:KK1 23.1 %
Latvia_MN1:ZVEJ26 2.05

To CWC:

Corded_Ware_Germany:I0049
Kotias:KK1 33.7 %
Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32 33.6 %
Karelia_HG:I0061 19.9 %
Hungary_CA:I1497 12.7 %

Corded_Ware_Germany:I1534
Kotias:KK1 34.5 %
Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32 32.4 %
Karelia_HG:I0061 20 %
Hungary_N:I1495 12.9 %
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Also, around 1/3 of Swedish Battle Axe ancestry comes from Ukrainians (from HG1 and N1):

Gravetto-Danubian said:
But

BattleAxe_Sweden:RISE94
Kotias:KK1 28.6 %
Hungary_N:I1496 21.3 %
Ukraine_HG1:StPet2 21.1 %
Ukraine_N1:StPet12 11.5 %
Latvia_MN1:ZVEJ26 8.95 %
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Also, CHG (Kotias) in Yamnaya drops to just 37%. The remaining 63% is from Russian-Latvian-Ukrainian HG:

Gravetto-Danubian said:
Lastly,

Yamnaya_Samara:I0429
Kotias:KK1 37 %
Samara_HG:I0124 34.8 %
Latvia_HG:ZVEJ32 11.25 %
Ukraine_HG1:StPet2 10.35 %

Why is Latvia_HG all of a sudden the best fit for BBs ?

Why is CWC something both Latvia HG & Karelia (implying a yet unsampled medium), with distinctly Hungarian Neolithic/ Copper Age EEF ancestry ?
Why is the Battle Axe individual, who is Z280+, unliek the Germany CWCs, somewhat different, distinctly more 'Carpatho - Ukrainian' ?
Lastly, Yamnaya expectedly prefers Samara HG .

I don;t think this is a coincidence but the question is what does this mean geographically ? I don;t think BB actually started from Latvia, but it probably tips an iceberg of similar Mesolithic substratum which might extend somewhat further south & west from latvia into Poland and maybe even Germany, as part of the exiguous pre-Beaker phenomenon which spawned BB after certain 'impulses' from the steppe & Hungary.

Lastly, the uniting common thread seems to be their Caucasian wives.

Needless to say, it is a possibly that the older models will change as we get more ancient samples toward a scenario which might be more in line with historical reality.

(...)

On what basis are you suggesting that Kum4 has no EHG ? Are we talking about the Kum4 from Hofmanova ? Not the "Copper Age Anatolian" from Lazarides ?
Based on the ADMIXTURE graph in the paper, it could pass for a Beaker or CWC individual !
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And: :smile:

Why is Latvia_HG all of a sudden the best fit for BBs ?
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baltic_Origins_of_Homer's_Epic_Tales
 
Alan said:
Correct, most of their ancestry seem to be independently brought to them. Even their CHG ancestry which is quite amazing considering how far Latvia is from the Caucasus. So a CHG like pop seem to have brought this admixture independently to CW. This population could have come from anywhere between the Caucasus-Iranian Plateau, South_Central Asia and Ukraine.
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Some analyses show Samara H/G in the Latvian Late Neolithic/Corded Ware. So, some admixture on the way.
 
Angela said:
Some analyses show Samara H/G in the Latvian Late Neolithic/Corded Ware.
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There should be Samara HG already in Latvian HG, according to what Jean M wrote:

Jean M said:
The Narva culture descends from the Elshanka culture of Samara.
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But wasn't one of Latvian HG with R1b an older sample, from Kunda culture ???
 
Fire Haired14 said:
The amount of ANE in Northern Europe is so high it needs a big chunk of EHG. Some methods aren't capable doing some models well. PCA isn't good at modelling CHG, EHG, WHG, EEF ancestry. The reason is West Eurasian diversity in PCAs is determined by Basal Eurasian, WHG, and ANE. Because of this Basal Eurasian in CHG can be absorbed by EEF and vice versa. Non-Basal Eurasian stuff in EHG can be absorbed by WHG.

That's what happened in the results from Anthrogencia. HungaryHG is absorbing EHG ancestry and Kotias is absorbing EEF ancestry. Also Kotias is absorbing ANE from EHG. Formal stats will quickly reject 24%+ CHG ancestry in Northern Europe.

We literally have documentation of extremely Yamnaya-like people all over Eastern Europe during the Late Neolithic; Corded Ware. I doubt the current narrative of Yamnya-like people bringing EHG and CHG to Europe will change. It has been a mystery why Late Neolithic/Bronze age Europeans need extra doses of WHG which can't be explained by Middle Neolithic farmers. UkraineHGs might help to explain this. So there might be some UkraineHG type stuff in Europe but the current narrative isn't going to change much.
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I don't have to even check to know the source of this analysis. Think for yourself, FH, look at the data, and then come to a conclusion, tentative though it might be. Any analysis that starts with a pre-conceived point of view and then tries to fit in the facts is always going to be flawed.

Sorry, but EHG is not the only story where the Indo-Europeans are concerned, much as some would like that to be the case.* A lot of WHG was picked up, and for now it doesn't seem as if it was from Ukrainian h-g people, or at least not these particular ones. This hyper-nationalistic stuff has to be taken out of genetic analysis. People should save it for football games or something.

Plus, where have I ever personally denied that the major story is that Yamnaya like people brought EHG and CHG to Europe? That's a total straw man argument. The proportions need not have been identical in each case, however.

There's also a big difference between CHG levels in these ancient samples, and the CHG levels now.

*I'm also starting to think that this whole rigid division into WHG/SHG/EHG is flawed. It's basically the same people. It's just that as you move east they picked up more "other" ancestry.
 
Angela said:
*I'm also starting to think that this whole rigid division into WHG/SHG/EHG is flawed. It's basically the same people. It's just that as you move east they picked up more "other" ancestry.
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According to Chad Rohlfsen they were all Upper Paleolithic Europeans + various levels of ANE admixture.

Chad Rohlfsen (from Anthrogenica) thinks that WHG also had ANE - just not as much as SHG and EHG.

Angela said:
This hyper-nationalistic stuff has to be taken out of genetic analysis.
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For some reason it is nationalism only when you claim that there were migrations from North to South.

When you claim that there were migrations from South to North, it is no longer hyper-nationalism. Huh.
 
Tomenable said:
According to Chad Rohlfsen, they were all Upper Paleolithic Europeans + various levels of ANE admixture.

Chad Rohlfsen (from Anthrogenica) thinks that WHG also had ANE - just not as much as SHG and EHG.
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None of these have admixture from Mal'ta - they inhabit an intermediate position in the PCA. This is useful information in the reconstruction general human history, and not detailed population dynamics. The analysis by Gravetto-Danubian is a prime example of this: if EHG was distinctive, why do these Bronze Age populations often prefer the Latvian Hunters in such an erratic manner? The answer is found in the paper: they are all quite similar, in that they have a basal affinity to something that was to become 'American' or 'Siberian' with varying degrees of subsequent input.
 
MarkoZ said:
None of these have admixture from Mal'ta
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They have admixture from Afontova Gora, not from Mal'ta.

Mal'ta could be ancestral only to ANE in Native Americans.

Afontova Gora is a better fit for ANE in Europe than Mal'ta.
 
Tomenable said:
For some reason it is nationalism only when you claim that there were migrations from North to South.

When you claim that there were migrations from South to North, it is no longer hyper-nationalism. Huh.
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Believe it or not, primitive humans preferred to live in the south. If we're talking about the Mesolithic, most humans at northern latitudes would have been recent immigrants from the south who escaped the Younger Dryas. Earlier in the Upper Paleolithic this is doubly true. It's only because we don't have samples from the dinstincte sites in Spain, Serbia etc. yet that the general picture looks like it does now.
 
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