The Official "I2 LGM refugium of origin" poll -- Let the debate begin !

LGM refugium of origin for I2? What say you?!


  • Total voters
    34

Kurgan

Kurgan
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Location
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Ethnic group
central European
Y-DNA haplogroup
I2a (SNP: Z16971+)
mtDNA haplogroup
H7c3
My understanding is that I2 originated during the Late Paleolithic some 22,000 years ago.

The LGM refugium of origin for I2 is still up for scholarly debate (around here it seems to be quite lively), but likely candidates are:

--Franco-Iberian refuge

--Italian peninsula
--lower Rhone

--Balkan peninsula
--Ukrainian LGM refuge (north / northwest Black Sea shoreline region)
--Anatolia
--(North) Caucasus
--who the hell knows! (the facts are confusing and conflicting)
 
I went with Franco-Iberian (IMHO a good guess for I2a-L460) and Italian Peninsula (IMHO a good guess for I2b-L415 and I2c-L596). Both, of course, are far from certain. The ground is pretty shaky for placing I2a-L460 in the Franco-Iberian refuge, but at least we see tremendous diversity of it right around the distribution of the successor Magdalenian culture. The ground is even shakier placing the others in the Italian Peninsula, since they have a weird split-diversity pattern on both sides of the Alps. Hopefully we get some ancient samples one day.

Was there a major LGM refuge in the Lower Rhone, by the way? I haven't heard of it. It seems that the cultures that followed the LGM, the Magdalenian and the Epigravettian, avoided that region, and we find their remains on either side of it.
 
The origin of Gravettian is seen as a more complex process than was thought before, involving an impact of industries with backed blades and bladelets from the eastern Mediterranean (Ahmarian, Lagaman, Dabba, beginning before 40 ky BP). After its establishment in Europe, the Danubian Gravettian is ordered into earlier Pavlovian stage (30-25 ky BP), concentrated in the Austrian-Moravian-South Polish corridor, and later Willendorf-Kostenkian stage (25-20 ky BP), widely dispersed over central and eastern Europe. The Epigravettian, termed Kasovian (after 20 ky BP), should be clearly separated from the earlier Gravettian stock (the radiocarbon datings used through this paper are uncalibrated). Finally, this paper gives examples of complex analyses of a typical large settlement (Pavlov I – Southeast) and of a burial site (Predmostí).
http://paleo.revues.org/607


http://quartaer.eu/pdfs/2009/2009_nuzhnyi.pdf
 
I went with Franco-Iberian (IMHO a good guess for I2a-L460) and Italian Peninsula (IMHO a good guess for I2b-L415 and I2c-L596). Both, of course, are far from certain. The ground is pretty shaky for placing I2a-L460 in the Franco-Iberian refuge, but at least we see tremendous diversity of it right around the distribution of the successor Magdalenian culture. The ground is even shakier placing the others in the Italian Peninsula, since they have a weird split-diversity pattern on both sides of the Alps. Hopefully we get some ancient samples one day.

Was there a major LGM refuge in the Lower Rhone, by the way? I haven't heard of it. It seems that the cultures that followed the LGM, the Magdalenian and the Epigravettian, avoided that region, and we find their remains on either side of it.


there were only 3 refugia in Europe : Franco-Iberian , Italian/Adriatic and coastal Greece (Franchtti cave etc.)

only the Franco-Iberian was very expansive
there was the Magdalenian and Ahrensburg short after LGM - these were tundra reindeer hunters going up north from southern France
but there where also Sauveterrian and Tardenoisian coming out of southern France after the youngest dryas (12600 - 11700 ) and after the forests started to regrow in Europe - these were hunter-gatherers in the forest

if you look at the expansion times of the subclades of I2 , you'd think these were the hunter-gatherers in the forest , not the earlier reindeer hunters
i'd say all reindeer hunter tribes went extinct - except 1 which could convert itself up north : I1
 
My understanding is that I2 originated during the Late Paleolithic some 22,000 years ago.

The LGM refugium of origin for I2 is still up for scholarly debate (around here it seems to be quite lively), but likely candidates are:

--Franco-Iberian refuge

--Italian peninsula
--lower Rhone

--Balkan peninsula
--Ukrainian LGM refuge (north / northwest Black Sea shoreline region)
--Anatolia
--(North) Caucasus
--who the hell knows! (the facts are confusing and conflicting)

I think I2 allready split into its main branches before LGM
Therefore I vote for all 3 refugia I know of :

--Franco-Iberian refuge
--Italian peninsula
--lower Rhone is connected to / the same as
Franco-Iberian refuge
--Balkan peninsula : only coastal Greece
 
I think I2 allready split into its main branches before LGM
Therefore I vote for all 3 refugia I know of

Do you figure any particular I2 branch as being in Greece during the LGM? None seem particularly diverse there nowadays. Maybe if we count extinct branches? Or maybe the diversity pattern has shifted a lot over time?
 
There might be one refuge hidden under North Adriatic. Half of Adriatic bottom was exposed during LGM. A very nice fertile lowland by the sea.
 
There might be one refuge hidden under North Adriatic. Half of Adriatic bottom was exposed during LGM. A very nice fertile lowland by the sea.

I was thinking the same thing - Balkans Peninsula but not Greece. Underwater archeology, anyone?
 
Do you figure any particular I2 branch as being in Greece during the LGM? None seem particularly diverse there nowadays. Maybe if we count extinct branches? Or maybe the diversity pattern has shifted a lot over time?

Maybe they all went extinct, but I have another theory.
Maybe I2a1a-CTS595 originates from that refugium. (that would mean that they are some 25 % older than Nortvedts estimates)
They would have come along with G2a to Sardinia and later also the lower Rhone (France) as farmers.
First contact between I2a1a and G2a would have been 13000 years ago, when obsidian from Melos arrived in Franchtti cave.
Also some seeds from Asia arrived in the Franchtti cave.
 
RCO:"You can find small pockets of haplogroup I in the last paper of Julie di Cristofaro: Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge. Basal types of J and I from Iran and Central Asia can have a very interesting history and they can have complete new sequences of whole Y-DNA, completely different from the Western European cases."

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetch...e.0076748.s007

Igmayka:On a finer scale, a modern Russian individual (HGDP00887) was found to share high similarity with the Loschbour individual.

http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/04/more-ancient-scandinavians-skoglund.html
 
The Official "I2 LGM refugium of origin" poll
Official?
 
RCO:"You can find small pockets of haplogroup I in the last paper of Julie di Cristofaro: Afghan Hindu Kush: Where Eurasian Sub-Continent Gene Flows Converge. Basal types of J and I from Iran and Central Asia can have a very interesting history and they can have complete new sequences of whole Y-DNA, completely different from the Western European cases."

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetch...e.0076748.s007

If the quoted text is related to the linked spreadsheet, it looks like the "basal" I is probably just I1, since they only tested for I2 SNPs. If they had tested for I1 and that also came up negative, this result would be more interesting. As is, it seems that they found an I, probably I1 in a single Hazara individual. OK...

EDIT: Nevermind, just found the paper and saw that it includes STRs, and the individual in question has an STR profile that bears no resemblance to I1, so he is indeed probably I*! First I've ever seen, thanks. Probably not relevant to this thread in particular, but worth additional investigation...

Igmayka:On a finer scale, a modern Russian individual (HGDP00887) was found to share high similarity with the Loschbour individual.

http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/04/more-ancient-scandinavians-skoglund.html

Since the second-closest group in the Lazaridis paper's tree includes big cluster of Sardinians, presumably I2-M26 folk, I haven't read too much into this. More details are necessary to come to any real conclusions.
 
If the quoted text is related to the linked spreadsheet, it looks like the "basal" I is probably just I1, since they only tested for I2 SNPs. If they had tested for I1 and that also came up negative, this result would be more interesting. As is, it seems that they found an I, probably I1 in a single Hazara individual. OK...

EDIT: Nevermind, just found the paper and saw that it includes STRs, and the individual in question has an STR profile that bears no resemblance to I1, so he is indeed probably I*! First I've ever seen, thanks. Probably not relevant to this thread in particular, but worth additional investigation...



Since the second-closest group in the Lazaridis paper's tree includes big cluster of Sardinians, presumably I2-M26 folk, I haven't read too much into this. More details are necessary to come to any real conclusions.

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2014-08/1409250465
 

In that thread, it seems like Nordtvedt wants SNPs before committing to the precise location of this I* on the phylogeny.

One thing that the I* sample reminded me of was the IJ* sample found in a Persian in Grugni 2012. Hazara and Persians are extremely closely related, so it would make sense if the I* from the Hazara was actually on the same branch as the IJ* from the Persian. Indeed, I checked which SNPs were being tested to represent "I," and they were different in the two studies: the Hazara was tested for M258 and got a positive, while the Persian was tested for M170 and got a negative. If M258 is the more ancient mutation, then these two could in fact be very closely related, and together represent the same branch of proto-I. If my guess is right, then since M170 is the canonical mutation of Haplogroup I, then these both may in fact be not I but IJ, on the same M258+ branch as Haplogroup I, as opposed to the M258- branch (J).

Speculation aside, I'm hoping for more detailed study of these rare basal clades in the future. They may not pinpoint where Haplogroup I was during the LGM, but could help us understand its earliest movements into Europe.
 
In that thread, it seems like Nordtvedt wants SNPs before committing to the precise location of this I* on the phylogeny.

One thing that the I* sample reminded me of was the IJ* sample found in a Persian in Grugni 2012. Hazara and Persians are extremely closely related, so it would make sense if the I* from the Hazara was actually on the same branch as the IJ* from the Persian. Indeed, I checked which SNPs were being tested to represent "I," and they were different in the two studies: the Hazara was tested for M258 and got a positive, while the Persian was tested for M170 and got a negative. If M258 is the more ancient mutation, then these two could in fact be very closely related, and together represent the same branch of proto-I. If my guess is right, then since M170 is the canonical mutation of Haplogroup I, then these both may in fact be not I but IJ, on the same M258+ branch as Haplogroup I, as opposed to the M258- branch (J).

Speculation aside, I'm hoping for more detailed study of these rare basal clades in the future. They may not pinpoint where Haplogroup I was during the LGM, but could help us understand its earliest movements into Europe.

if these are representatives of some proto-I it would mean I in Europe is the consequence of migration from outside and not some evolution inside Europe
 
if these are representatives of some proto-I it would mean I in Europe is the consequence of migration from outside and not some evolution inside Europe

Or perhaps IJ migrated into Europe and evolved into I.
 
Or perhaps IJ migrated into Europe and evolved into I.

Exactly, it wouldn't resolve whether I formed in Europe or Asia, but it would help anchor where the proto-I branch of IJ once was.
 
This is easy ...all mayor 3.For Haplo I was Iberian and Balkan.Maps for Ice shows this perfectly.Ukrainian was important for Haplo R.Haplo I populated Ukraine area after the big melting 8750 bc see Tripolje genesis via linear culture.Balkan area has been proven to be refuge by finds like Badanj Cave
 
I start to think that I2c is an underestimate ancient haplogroup. Is modern distribution is around Black Sea, Caucasus, North Iran, and its found in Yamna Culture, maybe I2c was some kind of ancient EHG or CHG signal ? We need sample for ancient north caucasus regio. Maybe their was a blend in late Paleolithic with Central Europe I2 Y-Dna / U5b Mtdna and R1b hunter gatherers from circum-black sea ( i say circum black-sea , because the history of R1b ifeets with north or south of the black sea, so circum black sea can be, balkans, pontic steppe, north anatolia, caucasus, kuma manych depression or all of them in a moment of history.
 
It's a pointless debate since I2 was surely found all over Europe as well as in northwest Anatolia and the North Caucasus before the LGM. Therefore it would have been found in all the regions listed in the poll during the LGM.
 

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