the origin of al Andalus

The Reconquest was truly an exceptional job. Everything is documented and everything went to another stage, we don't even remember, it seems that Ygorcs is the one who decides how the peoples of Europe should be and feel.

How great, from the Kingdom of Tartessos to the present day, Al- Andalus a parenthesis of which we keep four and a half monuments as spoils of war.

800 years of wars and the guy wants us to feel feelings and continuity. I have already said that there is not, nor are we sorry, and any influence is already ours.

I am a native, caring, not someone who decides for the peoples from another continent without knowing them.
 

18th-19th century samples. Probably not indigenous people, but immigrants that somehow ended up in Brazil coming with sailors from the Pacific islands. Or, of course, that may be a misattribution, a mistaken identity given by those who kept the skulls in the mid-late 19th century. They are far too similar to Polynesian people to be descendants of a much earlier migration. Drift and admixture with Amerindians would've made them much less closely related with Polynesians if those Botocudo samples were indeed representatives of an early arrival of Southeast Asians in South America (not to mention that it is extremely improbable they would end up in Minas Gerais, in eastern Brazil, but not in Western South America, i.e. the Pacific coast).
 
The Reconquest was truly an exceptional job. Everything is documented and everything went to another stage, we don't even remember, it seems that Ygorcs is the one who decides how the peoples of Europe should be and feel.

How great, from the Kingdom of Tartessos to the present day, Al- Andalus a parenthesis of which we keep four and a half monuments as spoils of war.

800 years of wars and the guy wants us to feel feelings and continuity. I have already said that there is not, nor are we sorry, and any influence is already ours.

I am a native, caring, not someone who decides for the peoples from another continent without knowing them.

Ah, now finally you defined it very well: you're talking about feelings and emotional attachments, about national identity as a feeling. We here are talking about something else entirely: history, facts, genetics (and, sorry to break this to you: change in culture and politics don't change genetics suddenly). That's why we're speaking completely different languages. You're caring about how you feel and about how people think they should feel, even if facts and evidences dictate otherwise. You may feel however you wish, but, sorry, another fact that should be presented to you now: facts don't care about your feelings​. ;)
 
18th-19th century samples. Probably not indigenous people, but immigrants that somehow ended up in Brazil coming with sailors from the Pacific islands. Or, of course, that may be a misattribution, a mistaken identity given by those who kept the skulls in the mid-late 19th century. They are far too similar to Polynesian people to be descendants of a much earlier migration. Drift and admixture with Amerindians would've made them much less closely related with Polynesians if those Botocudo samples were indeed representatives of an early arrival of Southeast Asians in South America (not to mention that it is extremely improbable they would end up in Minas Gerais, in eastern Brazil, but not in Western South America, i.e. the Pacific coast).

Perfect analysis @Ygorcs. Anyone who wants to attest to the Polynesian ancestry in the Botocudo Indians knows nothing about the geography of the South American continent. In fact, for this to happen, the Polynesians, after crossing the entire Pacific Ocean, would have climbed the Andes, crossed Patagonia and Pampas, climbed the central Brazilian plateau, reaching the Rio Doce Valley in Minas Gerais and mixed with the local Indians . If that is true it is the most epic story of humanity on the planet.

Not to mention that the botocudos were indigenous peoples from the Southeast of Brazil who offered mayor resistance to the Portuguese colonizers, so they were extinct after successive and continuous conflicts. Why would they have handled the supposed newcomers from Polynesia better?

PS: Polynesians were peoples of the sea. I don't believe they have the ability to climb.
 
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Ah, now finally you defined it very well: you're talking about feelings and emotional attachments, about national identity as a feeling. We here are talking about something else entirely: history, facts, genetics (and, sorry to break this to you: change in culture and politics don't change genetics suddenly). That's why we're speaking completely different languages. You're caring about how you feel and about how people think they should feel, even if facts and evidences dictate otherwise. You may feel however you wish, but, sorry, another fact that should be presented to you now: facts don't care about your feelings​. ;)


It is not a political or system change to the same population. It is something that genetics has also demonstrated and that corroborates history.


Ancient natives who were converted to Islam and later returned to Christianity. The colonists of the repopulation that is well documented.


How will the same population be changing systems. Precisely science corroborates the sentiment in this case.

I am 100 x 100 Andalusian. Here are some of my results. I also speak of science.

BichonWHG%252CJPEG.jpg


R1ProtovillanoviaMartinsicuro.jpeg


GoyetQ116-1.JPEG


Altai.Nsiberia.jpeg


YammnayaI0231.jpeg


VillabrunaEpigravetian.jpeg


Ust-IshimSiberia.jpeg


Ostuni1GrevettianItaly.jpeg


LaBra%25C3%25B1aWHG.jpeg


I0172eSPERSTEDTMN.jpeg


Rathlin1IrelandBA-M232268.JPEG


Gokhem2Sweden.JPEG


HungaryEN-Neolithic-I1506-NE1.jpeg


PolandHunter-GathererN22.jpeg


YammnayaI0231.jpeg


LBKi0054.jpeg


CordedWareGermanyI0103.JPEG


UneticeI0116.JPEG


UneticeI0164.JPEG


MNspainI0408.JPEG


CooperAgeSpainI1277.JPEG


BeakerNorthItalyI2477.JPEG


BeakerNoSteppeItalyi2477.jpeg


BeakerSouthFranceI3874.JPEG


NeolithicRomaniai2532.jpeg


NeolithicOrkneyI2630.JPEG


AndalusianVisigothI3585.JPEG
 
Yes, but so what? Al-Andalus was in Europe, was part of European history whether people like it or not, and was mostly inhabited by Europeans who were "100% Spaniards" just like you (whatever that is meant to be according you, considering that the majority of Spaniards and Portuguese have 5-15% of North African + Levantine ancestry, but that is ultimately also essential part of what makes someone from Spain or Portugal - again, whether people like it or not). Bosnians and Albanians didn't stop being Europeans and having deep ties to their ancestral customs and history when they converted to Islam, either. Also, in Al-Andalus a sizeable proportion of the population remained Christian, and they were part of a prestiged and populous land, not some forgettable backward zone.
 
Yes, but so what? Al-Andalus was in Europe, was part of European history whether people like it or not, and was mostly inhabited by Europeans who were "100% Spaniards" just like you (whatever that is meant to be according you, considering that the majority of Spaniards and Portuguese have 5-15% of North African + Levantine ancestry, but that is ultimately also essential part of what makes someone from Spain or Portugal - again, whether people like it or not). Bosnians and Albanians didn't stop being Europeans and having deep ties to their ancestral customs and history when they converted to Islam, either. Also, in Al-Andalus a sizeable proportion of the population remained Christian, and they were part of a prestiged and populous land, not some forgettable backward zone.

Enrique Vlll repudiated his wives and nobody condemns him and many others.


Why do modern Europeans demand that we have to accept everything?


I totally repudiate and reject Al Andalus to that historical period whose end shows the history as it was, it seems that the Reconquest forgets, look at all that process shapes our character and forms the unity of all the territories of Spain, I can not, it is impossible, since I told him, this is not swallowing all the volumes of the Larousse, this is written in the genes.

Can you continue talking about Al Andalus and its "wonders" It is not a subject that interests me too much, the truth is, I prefer the subjects of Spain or Andalusia, thanks
 
Dear friend Carlos. I respect your personal positions and I will not disturb you anymore. But this thread is not about Spain, Portugal or Andalusia. This topic is about Al-Andalus.
 
Dear friend Carlos. I respect your personal positions and I will not disturb you anymore. But this thread is not about Spain, Portugal or Andalusia. This topic is about Al-Andalus.

My dear friend Carlos. I said I wouldn't disturb you anymore and I intend to keep my word. Just to end my participation in this thread. Whenever you are expressing a personal position on a specific subject, always use the IMO or IMHO reference. Cheers. (y)
 
Enrique Vlll repudiated his wives and nobody condemns him and many others.


Why do modern Europeans demand that we have to accept everything?


I totally repudiate and reject Al Andalus to that historical period whose end shows the history as it was, it seems that the Reconquest forgets, look at all that process shapes our character and forms the unity of all the territories of Spain, I can not, it is impossible, since I told him, this is not swallowing all the volumes of the Larousse, this is written in the genes.

Can you continue talking about Al Andalus and its "wonders" It is not a subject that interests me too much, the truth is, I prefer the subjects of Spain or Andalusia, thanks

I witnessed the opposite,

I assure you that Catherine of Aragon is highly respected, ... and many people go to Peterborough (England) to see her,

... many Spaniard students and visitors bring flowers and pay their respects to their Queen.
 
@Duarte @Ygorcs
This is new, and interesting:
Ancient voyage carried Native Americans’ DNA to remote Pacific islands
"Finding that some Polynesians carry genetic ancestry from South America supports long-held theory that ancient populations met and interbred."
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02055-4

Really fascinating, @Regio. Thank you very much by information. New line of research. Let’s go guys. This is it.
 
Enrique Vlll repudiated his wives and nobody condemns him and many others.

Yes, but so what? (Besides, I could ask: who the heck does not condemn Henry VIII for the way he repudiated his wives?)
Totally off-topic.

Why do modern Europeans demand that we have to accept everything?

Now that was some really unbelievable leap of logic. From the marriages of Henry VIII straight to the genetic, societal and cultural heritage of entire populations. Of course, these are almost the same thing, perfect comparison.

I totally repudiate and reject Al Andalus to that historical period whose end shows the history as it was, it seems that the Reconquest forgets, look at all that process shapes our character and forms the unity of all the territories of Spain, I can not, it is impossible, since I told him, this is not swallowing all the volumes of the Larousse, this is written in the genes.

Nobody cares if you repudiate it. The topic is not about your feelings or about things that you think are "written" in your genes. And apart from your first sentence, the rest is written in such a confusing and poor English that I honestly didn't understand.

Also, I'm sure many Galicians, Basques and Catalonians wouldn't exactly agree that it was the Reconquista that shaped the unity of all the territories of Spain.

Can you continue talking about Al Andalus and its "wonders" It is not a subject that interests me too much, the truth is, I prefer the subjects of Spain or Andalusia, thanks

If it doesn't interest you, good riddance, you shouldn't be commenting on a thread about Al-Andalus. And, yes, we should continue talking about Al-Andalus (with its wonders and its evils, as we are dealing with history, not with cherry-picked historical myths promoted by some state or its intelligentsia). After all, this is exactly what the thread is about.
 
On a related note al-Andalus is where sugar took off in Spain. Is there anything similar to dulce de leche in cookbooks from the time? I've always been interested how that developed.

it seems there's two competing theories about its origins.

  • Argentinean
  • Colonial Indonesia (by Dutch? Indonesians?) then perfected by Spanish in the Philippines and then taken to Spain and then to the rest of the world

How do the European dishes similar to this play into this? Independent origin?


  • Norman confiture de lait
  • Norwegian hamar-pålegg/haPå
  • Russian/Eastern European varenaya sgushenka


Varenaya sgushenka is said to have Turkish (Tatar origins) or at least condensed milk is.

https://northstarreports.org/2015/02/16/bliss-in-a-blue-and-white-tin-sweetened-condensed-milk-in-russia-the-north-star-reports-by-marin-ekstrom-sponsored-by-the-college-of-st-scholastica-and-the-middle-ground-journal/


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensed_milk


"According to the writings of Marco Polo, in the thirteenth century the Tatars were able to condense milk. Marco Polo reported that ten pounds (4.5 kg) of milk paste was carried by each man, who would subsequently mix the product with water. "


However, the next sentence seems to disagree with that.


"However, this probably refers to the soft Tatar curd (katyk), which can be made into a drink (ayran) by diluting it, and therefore refers to fermented, not fresh, milk concentrate."


It is then attributed to these inventors.


"Nicolas Appert condensed milk in France in 1820,[4] and Gail Borden, Jr., in the United States in 1853, in reaction to difficulties in storing milk for more than a few hours."


So is this product Argentenian or Indonesian? Do any of the European products have a legitimate claim of an independent invention? And if they do is it because of Turkish contributions?


Its such a confusing food to pinpoint the origin of.

Sorry for the tangent. I'm curious about Europe's food history.
 
On a related note al-Andalus is where sugar took off in Spain. Is there anything similar to dulce de leche in cookbooks from the time? I've always been interested how that developed.

it seems there's two competing theories about its origins.

  • Argentinean
  • Colonial Indonesia (by Dutch? Indonesians?) then perfected by Spanish in the Philippines and then taken to Spain and then to the rest of the world

How do the European dishes similar to this play into this? Independent origin?


  • Norman confiture de lait
  • Norwegian hamar-pålegg/haPå
  • Russian/Eastern European varenaya sgushenka


Varenaya sgushenka is said to have Turkish (Tatar origins) or at least condensed milk is.

https://northstarreports.org/2015/02/16/bliss-in-a-blue-and-white-tin-sweetened-condensed-milk-in-russia-the-north-star-reports-by-marin-ekstrom-sponsored-by-the-college-of-st-scholastica-and-the-middle-ground-journal/


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condensed_milk


"According to the writings of Marco Polo, in the thirteenth century the Tatars were able to condense milk. Marco Polo reported that ten pounds (4.5 kg) of milk paste was carried by each man, who would subsequently mix the product with water. "


However, the next sentence seems to disagree with that.


"However, this probably refers to the soft Tatar curd (katyk), which can be made into a drink (ayran) by diluting it, and therefore refers to fermented, not fresh, milk concentrate."


It is then attributed to these inventors.


"Nicolas Appert condensed milk in France in 1820,[4] and Gail Borden, Jr., in the United States in 1853, in reaction to difficulties in storing milk for more than a few hours."


So is this product Argentenian or Indonesian? Do any of the European products have a legitimate claim of an independent invention? And if they do is it because of Turkish contributions?


Its such a confusing food to pinpoint the origin of.

Sorry for the tangent. I'm curious about Europe's food history.

I ask apologize for my bairrism and what I'm going to post next is not advertising the products of my state. The best ‘milk sweets’ in the world are produced in the state of Minas Gerais / Brazil and the best of them is the 'Doce de Leite de Viçosa.' I could talk about the cheeses, yogurts and many other dairy products sold throughout Brazil, but that is another story. Here are @Regio X (State of Rio Grande do Sul) and @Ygorcs (State of Ceará) that wouldn't let me to lie.
Cheers (y)

Ni4Tr0F.png
 
I ask apologize for my bairrism and what I'm going to post next is not advertising the products of my state. The best ‘milk sweets’ in the world are produced in the state of Minas Gerais / Brazil and the best of them is the 'Doce de Leite de Viçosa.' I could talk about the cheeses, yogurts and many other dairy products sold throughout Brazil, but that is another story. Here are @Regio X and @Ygorcs that wouldn't let me to lie.
Cheers (y)

I'm a suspect on this, because I love all dairy products and I am Brazilian, so I'm no disinterested party, but I must say I prefer the Brazilian-style doce de leite to Argentina's dulce de leche by far. The dulce de leche tasted to me and also had a texture that reminds me a lot of caremel, very, very sweety, and a more homogeneous, even cream. Brazilian doce de leite is less sweety, with a more heterogeneous texture with some slightly harder bits within the cream, and tastes more milky than sugary. I think it's much batter especially to eat as a dessert on its own, while dulce de leche is delicious mainly spread over mildly salty or not so sweet bread or cookies. That softens the very sweety taste of the dessert, the combined taste is excellent. But Brazilian doce de leite is excellent both on its own or as an accompaniment to bread or cookies, and you can eat much more of it without getting sick of it.

Dulce de leche looks much better, but I'll go with the taste of doce de leite.

doce-de-leite-em-calda.jpg

Leitinho+7.jpg


"Brazilian style"

dsc09967.jpg

oh8g1i7ik8c41.jpg


"Argentine style"
 
I'm a suspect on this, because I love all dairy products and I am Brazilian, so I'm no disinterested party, but I must say I prefer the Brazilian-style doce de leite to Argentina's dulce de leche by far. The dulce de leche tasted to me and also had a texture that reminds me a lot of caremel, very, very sweety, and a more homogeneous, even cream. Brazilian doce de leite is less sweety, with a more heterogeneous texture with some slightly harder bits within the cream, and tastes more milky than sugary. I think it's much batter especially to eat as a dessert on its own, while dulce de leche is delicious mainly spread over mildly salty or not so sweet bread or cookies. That softens the very sweety taste of the dessert, the combined taste is excellent. But Brazilian doce de leite is excellent both on its own or as an accompaniment to bread or cookies, and you can eat much more of it without getting sick of it.

Dulce de leche looks much better, but I'll go with the taste of doce de leite.

doce-de-leite-em-calda.jpg

Leitinho+7.jpg


"Brazilian style"

dsc09967.jpg

oh8g1i7ik8c41.jpg


"Argentine style"

It seems that in Minas Gerais we produce the sweet in style ‘dulce de leche’ and not in the style ‘doce de leite’ that you are showing in the pics. These pics are the Ceará Style? I’m wrong about that?
 
@Duarte
Indeed, Minas Gerais is well known in Brazil for its really great dairy products.
(Agora fiquei com vontade de provar o doce de leite Viçosa, he he he.)

What Ygorcs posted doesn't look the Doce de Leite the way I know it, indeed. What he posted we "gaúchos" call ambrosia:
"É também o nome de um doce originário da Península Ibérica, popular também no interior do Brasil, feito de leite, ovos e açúcar. É um dos doces mais típicos do Rio Grande do Sul. No Brasil, também é conhecido como doce de ovos, ou doce de leite de bolinhas, devido à forma que este possui quando pronto para consumo."
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia

10_01_43_825_pic.jpg
 
@Duarte
Indeed, Minas Gerais is well known in Brazil for its really great dairy products.

What Ygorcs posted doesn't look the Doce de Leite the way I know it, indeed. What he posted we "gaúchos" call ambrosia:
"É também o nome de um doce originário da Península Ibérica, popular também no interior do Brasil, feito de leite, ovos e açúcar. É um dos doces mais típicos do Rio Grande do Sul. No Brasil, também é conhecido como doce de ovos, ou doce de leite de bolinhas, devido à forma que este possui quando pronto para consumo."
https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia

10_01_43_825_pic.jpg

No, that doce de leite​ made in the Northeast doesn't take eggs. It's just condensed milk under very hot temperatures. Ambrosia must be something else.
 
It seems that in Minas Gerais we produce the sweet in style ‘dulce de leche’ and not in the style ‘doce de leite’ that you are showing in the pics. These pics are the Ceará Style? I’m wrong about that?

See, now in my house:

w5ABlfK.jpg


c6O2a2w.jpg


HujS0bW.jpg


Qla92bq.jpg
 

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