Theory: I1 originally from Paloithic Cro magnon central Europe not Scandinavia

P.S. I hope you're not a Turling test F.H.! I forget who said that the other day, but I must admit I did a goofy guffaw when I read that comment... please tell me I wasn't duped. Either way, that shows either your impressive progress or some amazing programming ability.
 
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Was it too predictable that Noman would reject such a straightforward debunking? This guy can't admit a single mistake, like referencing an article that says that humans and chimps are more closely related than either is to gorillas, and saying that it says that humans are more closely related to gorillas.

I haven't read anything you've said for several posts, just like nobody1. Sorry but I don't care about the opinion of people who sit there and call me an idiot and show they don't have basic manners, and who can't debate using logic instead of polemics.

Projection much? I've never called you an idiot, while you called me austistic.

Especially if they then abuse their mod authority to give me an infraction for doing the same in a more polite manner. Now if you gave an infraction to all those people then I applaud your hoesty, but I know you didn't. You show yourself out as a petty emotional being deviod of logic like most of humanity.

I'll quote what you posted that I gave an infraction to, and I'll let others decide if I'm abusing my mod authority:

...everyone from outside western civilization... lies about everything to rewrite history to make their mudhole look like it's the center of civilization.

Everyone in europe proper is an argumentative, anal retentive know-it-all character....

If you find anyone else making these sorts of broad insults, let me know.

But no I would not accept anyone saying that without some actual data behind it, not just genetic but archaeological as well.

So you're rejecting your own source? This is rich. :LOL:
 
Listen Noman, I read your last post fully and I think I was a tad harsh on you. You do have at least two very compelling points... 1. R1b has as at least as much Neanderthal as hg. G and I do (although I think they picked it up in the Russian Steppes or somewhere much further East than Europe) 2. The human to chimp/ape gap doesn't feel right to many of us (including the "big boys"). It doesn't even matter that much if chimp or ape is closer to us... the lab coats are majorly missing something for the massive amount of human evolution to have happened SO very quickly. And yes they do know this. Does FoxP2 mutate faster than any other known segment (and does it cause secondary mutations)? Was the rocket of homo sapien advancement caused by magic mushrooms? (I've heard this discussed by serious scientists). Hybrid theory? Little green men? Something important happened on our rock and it happened FAST. So any way, we have some sharp elbows on this site, but all of us are after the same thing... the truth. Help us find it.
 
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Sorry guys I would not have said anything and was planning to ignore him and nobody1 from here on out already but I noticed that hateful little post talking about 'what kind of person you are'.

If you think you have made a logical case for your position you have no need for any of that nonsense, or for the approval of others sharing your opinion for that matter.
 
Group hug. The irony surrounding the whole lack of Paleolithic R1b discussion is this... where is the ancient I1 in Europe??? The oldest found (according to my limited knowledge anyway) is about 350A.D.-550A.D., yes that's A.D. I have discussed numerous reasons for the dearth of I1 in Europe, (most involve an intense connection of I1 to water travel/kayak/sailing/etc.) so I guess it's a party foul for me to demand R1b proof when I can't produce it either. All that said, I think Maciamo's R1b clade map shows the most realistic progressions for what we know now. Side note: I'm well aware of the 50,000 year old sites in South America. continued...
 
And what's weird is that I watched a fantastic video about a year ago where an American female archeologist talked all about her discovery of REALLY old remains (I think she might have carbon dated the surrounding layer at 200,000 years ago) maybe it was 50,000 though-- either way it would shatter all current models because they we're talking New World peoples. Anyway she couldn't believe the data, she re-tested and re-tested and looked for any thing to pull off the dates and couldn't do it. She stuck to her guns and it cost her career. She was extremely credible and now it seems scrubbed from google and the other engines. Anyone have any info. about her? The fact that it seems scrubbed weirds me out more than the discovery itself.
 
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The irony surrounding the whole lack of Paleolithic R1b discussion is this... where is the ancient I1 in Europe??? The oldest found (according to my limited knowledge anyway) is about 350A.D.-550A.D., yes that's A.D. I have discussed numerous reasons for the dearth of I1 in Europe, (most involve an intense connection of I1 to water travel/kayak/sailing/etc.) so I guess it's a party foul for me to demand R1b proof when I can't produce it either.

It depends on exactly what you're proposing about I1. The expectations of the ancient DNA are different if we're proposing something different about I1 than Paleolithic R1b proponents are proposing about R1b.

Those who say that R1b has been the dominant haplogroup in Western Europe since the end of the Ice Age are contradicted by the lack of R1b in Europe before the Chalcolithic. Even with the small number of ancient samples, it has gotten so severe already that the only way to explain it away now is to say that the samples systematically excluded populations that were likely to be R1b. That, though, seems unlikely, since the existence of I2a1a in the Neolithic samples shows that hunter-gather populations joined the Neolithic farmers to some degree, and it doesn't make much sense to suggest that populations who didn't take up farming ended up the largest after the Neolithic.

On the other hand, "conventional" predictions about I1 suggest that it was a minority North/Central European haplogroup that didn't really expand until toward the end of the Neolithic. If that's true, then we should expect it to be present in North/Central Europe during the Neolithic, but in very small amounts that are not all that likely to show up in the limited samples we have. The Danish samples that are supposed to come out at some point offer some promise, but even they're not a slam dunk.

If, however, we say that I1 was widespread in Europe by the beginning of the Neolithic, as Fire Haired does, then we have a problem.
 
It depends on exactly what you're proposing about I1. The expectations of the ancient DNA are different if we're proposing something different about I1 than Paleolithic R1b proponents are proposing about R1b.

Those who say that R1b has been the dominant haplogroup in Western Europe since the end of the Ice Age are contradicted by the lack of R1b in Europe before the Chalcolithic. Even with the small number of ancient samples, it has gotten so severe already that the only way to explain it away now is to say that the samples systematically excluded populations that were likely to be R1b. That, though, seems unlikely, since the existence of I2a1a in the Neolithic samples shows that hunter-gather populations joined the Neolithic farmers to some degree, and it doesn't make much sense to suggest that populations who didn't take up farming ended up the largest after the Neolithic.

On the other hand, "conventional" predictions about I1 suggest that it was a minority North/Central European haplogroup that didn't really expand until toward the end of the Neolithic. If that's true, then we should expect it to be present in North/Central Europe during the Neolithic, but in very small amounts that are not all that likely to show up in the limited samples we have. The Danish samples that are supposed to come out at some point offer some promise, but even they're not a slam dunk.

If, however, we say that I1 was widespread in Europe by the beginning of the Neolithic, as Fire Haired does, then we have a problem.
Fantastic summary-- I agree 100%. That's why you the man.
 
Group hug. The irony surrounding the whole lack of Paleolithic R1b discussion is this... where is the ancient I1 in Europe??? The oldest found (according to my limited knowledge anyway) is about 350A.D.-550A.D., yes that's A.D. I have discussed numerous reasons for the dearth of I1 in Europe, (most involve an intense connection of I1 to water travel/kayak/sailing/etc.) so I guess it's a party foul for me to demand R1b proof when I can't produce it either. All that said, I think Maciamo's R1b clade map shows the most realistic progressions for what we know now. Side note: I'm well aware of the 50,000 year old sites in South America. continued...

Along with the Gs in the study, in france, are also a few Is. And the time of that was what, 3000 BC?

If I am going to be intellectually honest, that is the best argument that there's no r1b back then. I don't expect to find R1B or R* with the Gs but the fact is we did find some Is nearby which we also might expect to remain separate. But this could also mean the Is were more settled by then and the Rs still more like wandering hunter gatherers, or just that the Is were more towards that area and maybe r1bs were starting to integrate in other areas.

But this is all going off of 4 studies, none of which are as far back as we'd like and only one studying the populations we really care about the most for the sake of resolving the issue.
 
Along with the Gs in the study, in france, are also a few Is. And the time of that was what, 3000 BC?..
Correct. I was specifically talking about I1 though rather than hg. I as a whole... I don't know of any found I1 found in Europe that can date earlier than 300A.D. I think we can all agree that we need more studies... maybe we will hear an update from the digs in Denmark soon.
 
There are two I1 finds I linked to as well, I think. One was about 2000 BC.

So enough I finds and I'll will have to call it a day, but I am not ready to give up hope yet, not til we see some iberian bell beaker at the least.
 
There are two I1 finds I linked to as well, I think. One was about 2000 BC.

So enough I finds and I'll will have to call it a day, but I am not ready to give up hope yet, not til we see some iberian bell beaker at the least.
Wow, you're not kidding. I am amazed that I somehow missed this sample (probably doesn't help that I can't read German and this is from a PhD thesis written in that language.) Anyway, this pushes my personal knowledge of I1 in Europe back 2,300 years in one swoop. Cool. Very, very cool.
 
wait nordicquarrler are u saying. Noman has a source from a Germn phd theiss paer saying ther was a I1 sample from 2,000bc aka 4,000ybp. Also i herad nothing of that I1 sample from 300-400d ancient Eurasian dna i thought showed all ancient dna frm euraisa. But i found out that they did not update on alot of y dna found in china some samples are 6,000 years old click here to see it. Click It is talking about New porjects which except to have 100-150 y dna, mtdna(full mtdan genomes), and ust dn from 4,000-5,000 year old north eur nd centrl euro bronze ge skelotons i think they are all from corded ware culture. Also they mention a project says they except to get a full genome of a bunch of neloithic danish and a 7,000 year old dnaish hunter gather.

Look at this quote from the article
This data will be compared against both published and unpublished ancient datasets and with modern datasets

It says unpublished ancient dna databases meaning they dont make public all of the dna they find. click here there was a project by germans on Yamna culture DNA, Catcomb culture, and i think Sycthians. It was started two years ago and they first mentioned a idea of their results in june 2013. All they said about 5,000 nd 6,000 year old yamna smples in southern ukrine and russia is there where no Mongliod mtdna haplogroups found they had pale skin dark eyes. Also that they were very unrelated to catcomb and 3,000 year od sythian remains in tagar russia. They also said they had 6 y dna samples from kurgens but for some reason even two months later wont make them public. They have obviously tons of y dna and mtdna but wont make it public.

This is kind of annoying that there is probably alot of ancient dna that is not public. Why are they not making them public what hurt does it do. Plus it seems these dna projects get he results and don't release them for another year or so. Also they dont update on how they are doing with getting the dna.
 
wait nordicquarrler are u saying. Noman has a source from a Germn phd theiss paer saying ther was a I1 sample from 2,000bc aka 4,000ybp.

Of course he doesnt;
Its 1000-700 BC; his own source even states 3000 years ago
"This was apparently a Bronze Age (3000 years ago) family burial site"
and he calculates 2000 BC - a classical Noman;

Göttingen University (2006) - p.12
http://www.genebaze.cz/res/LC/LC.pdf
also clearly states 1000-700 BC - Urnfield Bronze-age [Unstrut-Gruppe]

---

Im not too sure about that (maybe Sparkey knows more) but from what i have read so far the I1 app. turned into I2b2(L38)
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2008-05/1211058850

Def. needs to be double-checked;
 
There's a lot to chew on in these last few comments. It looks like the Lichtenstein Cave find was I1b in 2008 but this branch was reclassified as I2 according to ISOGG 2013, so I guess ancient I1 (I-M253) remains a mystery. F.H. your finds have some interesting implications... especially the Eurogenes blog referencing high amounts of hg. N and R1a in China (and even a K* sample). That is wild stuff. I hadn't seen the Ancestral Journeys listing before either-- that a nice, easy to use format to check dates. Also...
 
A neighboring thread on Eurogenes touched on the "Ancient Admixture in Human History" study (by Patterson et al) that if I'm reading correctly, bolters the Solutreans contribution to the New World. Sparkey did you happen to see this report? If so, what is your opinion on this one?
 
Of course he doesnt;
Its 1000-700 BC; his own source even states 3000 years ago
"This was apparently a Bronze Age (3000 years ago) family burial site"
and he calculates 2000 BC - a classical Noman;

Göttingen University (2006) - p.12
http://www.genebaze.cz/res/LC/LC.pdf
also clearly states 1000-700 BC - Urnfield Bronze-age [Unstrut-Gruppe]

---

Im not too sure about that (maybe Sparkey knows more) but from what i have read so far the I1 app. turned into I2b2(L38)
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2008-05/1211058850

Def. needs to be double-checked;

Refer to pp 245-249 for STR values.

Haplogroup "Y1" is predicted to be I2b.
Haplogroup "Y2" is predicted to be I2b.
Haplogroup "Y3" is predicted to be R1b.
Haplogroup "Y5" is predicted to be R1a.
Haplogroup "Y6" is predicted to be I2b.
Haplogroup "Y4" is likely I2b but has a whopping 5 STRs given.

The I2b from the predictor refers to I2a2 in the current nomenclature.

I'm missing the I1 in this thesis. Where did you say it was?
 
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Hans De Beule has a great writeup on the Lichtenstein Cave. Not particularly relevant to I1, though.

A neighboring thread on Eurogenes touched on the "Ancient Admixture in Human History" study (by Patterson et al) that if I'm reading correctly, bolters the Solutreans contribution to the New World. Sparkey did you happen to see this report? If so, what is your opinion on this one?

Where are you seeing something suggesting the Solutrean hypothesis in that paper? I see this figure:

euro.png


That suggests a common "North Eurasian" ancestry, with Siberia as an intermediate between this common ancestry and the Americas, which is pretty conventional. I suppose the Solutrean hypothesis also predicts a relationship between Native Americans and Europeans, so since the resolution here isn't great (I don't think--I haven't delved into the paper too much), we can say that it doesn't directly support or contradict it, right?
 
nordicquarreler isn't solutrean just a style of sprea making and making of other tools. That existed around France and Spain 22,000-17,000 We don’t really know exactly who they were genetically. Of course we know they were western Caucasians so European-mid eastern type of people because of their skull shape and the two mtdna samples we have. European people are a ethnic group that was formed way way back in the Paleolithic so Solutrean were almost defintley European. All the aust DNA tests I have looked at they say they found the Paleolithic European group they call it north euro, north east euro, or atlantic Baltic. Orignally before farming spread Europeans would have had 100% north Euro I think it should be called Paloithic European or just European. So if we can some how find European blood in some native americans and be able to proof it is from before it is very ancient then that is huge evidence either Solutrean or another group of Europeans came over. Maybe we can find some North Euro in native American tribes that have no records of inter marrying with Europeans. What I think would really proof it is if Native Americans had their own subclade of Y DNA I2a I guess it would be called I2a3. Or if they had another hg I subclade.
 
Refer to pp 245-249 for STR values.

Haplogroup "Y1" is predicted to be I2b.
Haplogroup "Y2" is predicted to be I2b.
Haplogroup "Y3" is predicted to be R1b.
Haplogroup "Y5" is predicted to be R1a.
Haplogroup "Y6" is predicted to be I2b.
Haplogroup "Y4" is likely I2b but has a whopping 5 STRs given.

The I2b from the predictor refers to I2a2 in the current nomenclature.

I'm missing the I1 in this thesis. Where did you say it was?

Ask Noman;
He claimed it was I1 (2000BC) based on this
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2008-02/1202055729

I didnt;
I posted [on post #174] the Göttingen (2006) study
and pointed out that its not 2000BC but 1000-700BC and app. I2b;
Was my post really that difficult to understand?
 

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