Thuringia - just correlation or causation as well?

[MOESAN]

What if ancestors of Raithlin emigrated to Ireland from Thuringia ???

We know that they came from Central Europe, but not from which place exactly.

In modern Ireland there is 4.8% (almost 5%) frequency of I2a2 and 1.9% of I2a1.

By contrast, there is only 2.7% frequency of R1b-S21 and 5.3% of I1.

Please notice that Thuringia is also characterized by a low frequency of R1b-S21.

Maciamo predicted some time ago, that Bronze Age Irish were R1b-P312 + I2.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]concerningdominance in %s the problem is that every admixture system gives adifferent result spite they could help - when combined - to pointsome things out.
all the way, all Late Neolithic populations hadseen their mesolithic HG component rising up...more in West and Northperhaps, not a surprise

concerning Thuringen and adjacentareas like Harz mountains, it has been a[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]nattractive[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]region[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]for metallur[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]ists,[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]attracting more than a group maybe: the meeting place of BBs (south)and Corded (north) with highlands locals - I think it has stayed atthe same time the frontier and the "great market place" along enough time after that, between future Celts and Germans. Beingjus East fo the Westfalen plain it could have been partial mixturebetween populations; H. HUBERT thought the apparent abandon ofWestfalen about final Chalcolithic could correspond to the arrival ofRound Barrows BBs of Britain, passed through the Rhine Mouth The COONanalysis of Round Barrows people in Britain does not contradict this:a majority of 'dinariclike' people [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]closeto the BB people of Worms on the Rhine[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif],[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]+[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]astrong minority of his 'borreby' types (locals?) [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]+[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]aminority of his 'corded' types.
the BBs of Germany known to ustoday are [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]forthe most[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Y-R1b; but I was tempted to associate some Y-I2a2 to them, what [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]isnot[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]to say all I2a2 come from a BB culture population; but some ligneagescould [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]have[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]be[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]eninvolved[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif].Vatya culture shows 2 (or 3) Y-I2a2 too: are they purely localfellows or post-BB from Gàta culture? to[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]o[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]small sample it's true.
I think Y-I2a2 in some places is notautochtonous; perhaps it is in Thuringen? and was spred along otherY-haplos by late BBs and Tumuli cultures in diverse directions ?[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Basedupon what we have at hand now, Y-I2a2 seems having been present atsome level in Northern Spain since the 5000 [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]spiteit is rather seldom [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]there[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]now.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]It appears [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]today[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]in some relatively hot spots in Northern Russia and Moldavia [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif](andin Ulan in Catacomb context)[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif];Its presence in South Scandinavia could very well be linked to BronzeAge (tumuli there too, and some BB imput too).[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Weneed precise subclades for every hotspot, ancient and modern, to seewhich ones share or don't share recent enough a[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]n[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]cestry.[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Idon't know the precise culture affiliation of the 3 Irishmen. Andtheir true links with BBs or subsequent Bronze cultures.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Idon't think Y-R1b-S145/L21 was central among BBs men and BBs imputhas been light enough in Ireland compared to Britain. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Butthe auDNA links with Germany could prove first Y-R1b were more Eastcentered before being partly pushed ahead by subseqent R1b clans,future U152 or future brother clades of DF27. The L21%s are not solow in Romance Switzerland by instance (small sample helas). Whateverthe uniparental male ligneages and their subclades, it seemsNorthwest Europe post Neolithic populations took a big part of itsauDNA among populations settled between Rhine, Upper Rhône andCzechoslovakia, what does not contradict official History. So ?With or without Y-I2a2 people ??? [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Waitmore ancient data.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]
&:concerning Sweden, the most I2a2 are in South as in Norway - thedenser hotspot is in N-E Sweden but swedish people say No[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]r[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]rbottenwas repopulated [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif](Iforgot the date)[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]by southerners. [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]F[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]oundereffect and drift?[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]& :concerning ancient Y-I2a2 what I have at hand gives :[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]ElPortalôn (North-Spain) 5000/4800 BC : Y-I2a2a - mt H3c (errorof datation???)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]LaMina, Soria (North-Spain) 3900/3600 BC : Y-I2a2a1b2 – mt H1 megalithic (error of datation ??? reutilisation ?)[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]ElMirador (North Spain) 2900/2600 BC : Y-I2a2a1 – mt X2b[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]ElMirador (North Spain) 2900/2600 BC : Y-I2a2 - mt H3[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]ElMirador (North Spain) 2900/2600 BC : Y-I2a2a - mt H3[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Csata(Hongrie) 2900/2600 BC : Y-I2a2a - mt H5[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]UneticeEsperstedt 2150/1900 BC : Y-I2a2 - mt I3a[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]YamnayaUlan (Russie) 2900/2100 BC : Y-I2a2a1b1b – mt T2a1aCatacomb[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]VatyaHongrie 2150/1900 BC ?: Y-I2a2a1a2a – mt T2b[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]VatyaHongrie 1750/1600 BC : Y-I2a2a1 – mt H11a[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]LichtensteinHarz 1000 BC : Y-I2a2b - mt H urnfield[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]LichtensteinHarz 1000 BC : Y-I2a2b - mt H urnfield[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]LichtensteinHarz 1000 BC : Y-I2a2b ? - mt H urnfield[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]LichtensteinHarz 1000 BC : Y-I2a2b - mt H urnfield[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]LichtensteinHarz 1000 BC : Y-I2a2b - mt U5b urnfield[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]theUrnfield men of the Harz in Southern Niedersachsen (close toThuringen) were brethren if I remember well so their almostuniformity of uniparental haplo's can misguide us.[/FONT]

 

[MOESAN]

It has to be a reason that autosomal and admixture parts of Corded Ware changed so much till our times. Their EEF part rose to higher level, basically doubled. The only explanation is that they mixed with Neolithic Farmers. We don't know about any big movement of population from South Europe to Central and North since CW times. So, the easiest explanation is that they have mixed with equal them or larger local farmer population. The farther West and South they went the more Neolithic Farmers they met and mix with.

Agree. The Desideri surveys about non metric teeth showed in Bohemia the BBs males and CWC males were rather well separated between them and separated from the mean of their wives, these last ones being closer between themselves spite some differences - at the contrary she affirms the Unetice people there showed very less differences between males and females, so stabilization and homogeneization. So it would be better for us having more data for every place and every time to see changes in admixture martching on: here I become exigeant!

 

[Greying Wanderer]

@Moesan

concerning Thuringen and adjacentareas like Harz mountains, it has been anattractiveregionfor metallurists,attracting more than a group maybe: the meeting place of BBs (south)and Corded (north) with highlands locals - I think it has stayed atthe same time the frontier and the "great market place" along enough time after that, between future Celts and Germans

Yes looking at a relief map the way they stand out on the edge of the north european plain like that makes me wonder if it might have been some kind of frontier.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Deutschland_topo_cropped.jpg

If the farmers initially pushed the HGs up into the mountains and miners later came to the mountains then the miner/metal workers might end up getting an extra dose of HG ancestry.