To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Riverman]

I read somewhere that Maros met their end on the hand of Tumulus expansion initially on MBA. Encrusted Pottery Culture had quite the conflicts with them as well. The shepherd-warriors from Bavaria in the form of Hugelgraber were quite the menace.

Their role for E-V13 might have been quite interesting though, because they might have played a similar role as Germanics and Avars for Slavs, like paving the way. Because if you think about it, before Tumulus culture, Encrusted Pottery (I2+G2) and F?zesabony (R-Z282) did control much of the Carpathian basin to the West, but Tumulus culture ended the rule of F?zesabony by and large. The fused Tumulus culture-Otomani groups produced the very range which led to G?va and Channelled Ware, based mostly on the Eastern locals.
From the East Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni did also largely push and annihilate, or fuse with all the local Eastern groups.
In the end the only larger, stronger local group remaining was the pre-G?va core with Suciu de Sus (and regional relatives, mixed groups like Berkesz-Demecser, Igrita, Cehalut etc.).

Initially I thought that R-L2 and Tumulus culture was only negative, but recently I reconsidered a potential double peak of R-L2 and E-V13 together, in the LBA-EIA transition, with the Urnfield expansion. This would align pretty well with the fact that there were many TC-East Carpathian mixed groups involved in Eastern Urnfield and G?va-Kyjatice. Kyjatice was clearly more TC influenced than G?va, but both were to some degree.

That means its pretty interesting how this all works, because what we see is that in large territories, which were very different before, after the transition only R-L2 and E-V13 remain as the dominant haplogroups, and these are clearly related to the Urnfield-Channelled Ware phenomenon, with the Danube-Tisza area being communication zone and everything East of the Tisza - so my expectation - should be E-V13 dominated from these local clans.
If you want so, Tumulus culture removed the F?zesabony dominance. We see very little of these Kostany-F?zesabony clans later, which were clearly R1a dominated - and probably closer related to the Baltoslavs. They might even have been the original Thracian speakers, we don't know, but fact is they were succeeded by other lineages after Tumulus culture, especially E-V13.

So there were two big winners, R-L2 from Tumulus culture, E-V13 (? from East Carpathians into G?va?) and a longer list of "losers" of these events (Tumulus culture expansion and Urnfield expansion):
- I2 + G2 of the Danubian block
- R-Z282 from the Kostany-F?zesabony
- R-Z93 from the Sabatinovka (Srubna, Iranian) expansion

R-Z93 came later back with Scythians and Sarmatians, and it survived in Thracians. R-Z282 came obviously back with the Slavic expansion. But up to the Avar period, we find among the local Tisza (non-newcomers) population mostly R-L2 and E-V13.

A correction in the data brought R-L2 and E-V13 in a synchronous peak in the LBA. The same being shown on FTDNA, just scroll down:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-V13/tree
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-L2/tree

A lot of major new branches pop up before 1.000 BC.

Data from May 2022 from YFULL:

The highest peak for both R-L2 and E-V13 is about 1.200-1.100 BC. This just looks like an ideal Urnfield peak. And its too early for the expansion of Stamped Pottery, by the way. Those seem to expand, from a more southerly base, the most with Basarabi, which is to be expected as well, because Basarabi was a big phenomenon too - not as big as Channelled Ware, but covering a lot of its territory from Hungary to Bulgaria.

 

[Poxy]

The Dardanii question is for now still obscure. I'm fairly confident we have identified/isolated the likeness of it's profile, but it needs to be validated.

I am looking forward to the upcoming Italian paper of 500 samples. I want to see the additional IA Latini profiles. If the single IA Roman Latini sample is a prelude to the others, the Roman Dardanii ancestral myth might carry some kernel of truth. I won't make judgement on a single sample, but the only Roman Latini profile so far shares half of it's components with the Dardanii shifted Illyrians. Theoretically, even the Messapii should show partial Dardanii ancestry. We will see.

Upcoming Italian paper of 500 samples? May I know which paper it is?

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Upcoming Italian paper of 500 samples? May I know which paper it is?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...ek-army/page12?p=661338&viewfull=1#post661338

 

[Riverman]

With more data coming from FTDNA, we can now say for sure that E-V13 reached Northern Italy-Sardinia, at least in part, between 500 BC and 100 AD (maximal range probably 600 BC to 200 AD). A lot parallel branches moved to Germany and Britain. That's by now a pretty straightforward conclusion based on both the ancient and modern DNA evidence. The ancient DNA references come often from the Avar era Hungarian samples. So it looks likely that around that time, before the branching, the source population lived at least close to Eastern Hungary-Western Romania-Northern Serbia. There are a couple of movements in this period, but the most important being quite clearly related to Vekerzug, La Tene Celtic backflow and early Roman contacts.
I think that's insofar interesting, as this largely excludes, at least for some branches, a much earlier (like Bronze Age) or later (like later Imperial Roman to migration period) movements.

An interesting example which might suggest a rather Vekerzug into La Tene Celtic backflow scenario is E-BY193951.

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-BY193951/tree

We have Avar era East Hungarian samples, a lot of West European (German and British) samples, and the Sardinian branch can be roughly dated to around 200 AD. It could have moved to Sardinia much earlier, but unlikely before 500 BC, if the datings are roughly about right. I went through the tree on FTDNA, and there a couple of such examples, in different main branches of E-V13, usually involving Italian-Sardinian and German-British branches. The time frame is clearly between later Hallstatt and very early Rome, with the best fit for a Vekerzug-West into Hallstatt to La Tene backflow scenario. Since it involves a lot of branches, it seems to have been no small event for the E-V13 haplogroup as a whole.

For most of these branches there is no overlap with Balkan branches in this time frame. So this split and expansion seems to largel postdate the earlier North <-> South split.

 

[Riverman]

The new tool at FTDNA is very helpful for checking all the public earliest ancestors for the different subclades:

There's a new tool at FTDNA - Group Time Tree. Roberta Estes discusses it on her blog here - Sneak Preview: Introducing the FamilyTreeDNA Group Time Tree

There's a link to the tool in her blog or you can use this link for the R1b Group Tree and then use search to get to your project(s). Group Time Tree: R R1b ALL Subclades

For E-V13: https://discover.familytreedna.com/groups/e-v13/tree

Just select branches. Or all branches.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

With some changes to my model and updates of the data, I reran my neolithic model. The results are better, and chronologically they make sense.

I'll start with the south Thracians and ancient Greeks. Thracians cluster near Myceneneans because of Anatolian genetics and not because of any Minoan gene flow, though they do seem to have absorbed some northern Greek like genetics.



1) One will also notice a partial turnover in IA Greece, where the neolithic component changes, the Minoan is reduced by half and a northern neolithic component takes it's place. The new neolithic component is Alb (late neolithic/chalcolithic) and the MKD neolithic (all one average). This agrees with the general accepted view of the Dorian invasions. The northern Greeks had absorbed a portion of the pre-IE population in the north and brought this profile south when they invaded Mycenaean Greece.
2) A part of Thracian neolithic component is also Alb-MKD, maybe it was picked up in their Vardar invasions. More samples are needed from the blind spots to get a better picture.

Here I'll take a special focus on Alb-MKD neolithic component.

It does look like a really good indicator of northern Hellenic(BA and IA) ancestral component.
On purpose I made a average of the Pylos R-PF7563 individuals, and added in the test the northern shifted Aidonia Myceneans as well, to see if they will show any unusual relationship with the northern populations.

1) Both the Pylos R-PF7563 and Aidonia Myceneans show partial northern Greek mixture, sharing components with the MKD EIA sample, MKD IA samples (J2a, G2), and the Alb LBA sample(R-PF7653).
2) This points to MKD Ohrid, and MKD southeast(I10390_G2-Z6494 and I10391) being northern Greeks, and a people of a kindred profile invaded the Myceneans from the north, notice how the Himera IA Greeks come of as a hybrid people of both Mycenean and northern Greek, plus an increase in ME ancestry.

One thing is clear, there is no continuity, the genetic landscape is constantly in motion, even when populations plot the same or similar to it's predecessor there are partial disruptions and turnover.

 

[torzio]

R-Z2103 was also found in Encrusted Pottery, Maros etc. I think we can be pretty sure that R-Z2103 was living in the Bronze Age not far from the Danube. Formations like Vatin and Brnjica are highly likely for R-Z2103, whether it was dominant or not. It seems to have been later between J-L283 Illyrians, E-V13 Thracians and J2a dominated Aegeans/Greeks. Kind of squeezed in between, because of the MBA-EIA expansions of those people.

Do you think E-V13 could also be eastern Celt ?

in southeastern Europe is recorded at the end of the 4th c. BC, when it was implemented by the Macedonian leader Kassander ( Cassander ) in an attempt to halt the southwards advance of the Celtic tribes in the Balkans. As part of this strategy, 20,000 of the Illyrian Autariatae tribe, who had fled into Macedonia from Bosnia in the face of the Celtic advance, were resettled in the Orbelos area (on the modern Greek/Bulgarian border) as military settlers in order to establish a buffer zone protecting Macedonia’s northern border from Celtic expansion (Diodorus Siculus Bibliotheca historica XX. 19.1). A similar strategy was the establishment of the city of Seuthopolis/Sevtopolis on the southern slopes of the Haemus (Balkan) mountains (in today’s south-central Bulgaria)

The Scordisci Celts where mixed with Thracian Triballi people in Serbia as well

 

[Hawk]

I was thinking and came to realize that some of E-V13 among Viking, Slavic middle ages must come via Byzantine merchants/priests/warriors/traders. It's remarkable how Slavic-Viking kingdom of Rus had close ties to Byzantine Empire, and Byzantine Empire should have been packed with E-V13 since Byzantium anyway was an original Thracian city and Thracian tribes lived on both sides of Bosphorus since ancient times.

 

[Dalmat]

From what we learn in schools, it is accepted that Slavs burned their dead until Christianity was adopted.
I think this was true for Illyrians as well, lots dug up remains in this region from that times seem to be immigrants from south and east, like not even european

 

[Riverman]

Do you think E-V13 could also be eastern Celt ?
in southeastern Europe is recorded at the end of the 4th c. BC, when it was implemented by the Macedonian leader Kassander ( Cassander ) in an attempt to halt the southwards advance of the Celtic tribes in the Balkans. As part of this strategy, 20,000 of the Illyrian Autariatae tribe, who had fled into Macedonia from Bosnia in the face of the Celtic advance, were resettled in the Orbelos area (on the modern Greek/Bulgarian border) as military settlers in order to establish a buffer zone protecting Macedonia’s northern border from Celtic expansion (Diodorus Siculus Bibliotheca historica XX. 19.1). A similar strategy was the establishment of the city of Seuthopolis/Sevtopolis on the southern slopes of the Haemus (Balkan) mountains (in today’s south-central Bulgaria)
The Scordisci Celts where mixed with Thracian Triballi people in Serbia as well

Yes, absolutely, and I think there happened massive backflow (not just E-V13) into the La Tene sphere from what was Eastern Hallstatt-Vekerzug-Basasrabi territory.

From what we learn in schools, it is accepted that Slavs burned their dead until Christianity was adopted.
I think this was true for Illyrians as well, lots dug up remains in this region from that times seem to be immigrants from south and east, like not even european

The usual funerary rite of Illyrians was inhumation in clan tumuli, that's more typical for them. The Thracians on the other hand, especially the North Thracians/Dacians regularly cremated their dead and did mainly inhumate under foreign influence (like Cimmerians, Scythians, Celts, Christian Romans etc.).

I was thinking and came to realize that some of E-V13 among Viking, Slavic middle ages must come via Byzantine merchants/priests/warriors/traders. It's remarkable how Slavic-Viking kingdom of Rus had close ties to Byzantine Empire, and Byzantine Empire should have been packed with E-V13 since Byzantium anyway was an original Thracian city and Thracian tribes lived on both sides of Bosphorus since ancient times.

I think the Anatolian tribes were fairly mixed and rather caused autosomal backflow through marriage and migrants to Southern Thrace in particular, rather than being a big source of E-V13 on the longer run, with all the Greek colonists and Anatolian migrants. However, there surely was Byzantine gene flow into Russian territory, that's without doubt and some E-V13 surely spread that way. But we find E-V13 in the pre-Byzantine/pre-Christian Slavic period already, even among them at a fairly stable - actually higher than expected frequency. So there definitely was a pick up during the earliest Slavic expansion the latest, if not in the latest Proto-Slavic stage.
If following Udolph with the North Carpathian homeland, that could be from direct Dacian admixture, like from the remains of the Carpi and Costobocci, as well as unknown North Carpathian and forest steppe tribes.

On the longer run we will be able to sort the exact migration path out for every subclade/terminal clade. Like if looking at the above mentioned British + Sardinian-Italian spread, the time window for many of these lineages, in which they arrived, gets narrower and narrower with every new sample. Like if we get enough samples from the potential source region (Eastern Hungary-Western Romania-Northern Serbia), the areas in between and the final destination, there can be no debate any more. To some degree this can be done with very little ancient and a lot of modern DNA as well. We would just need more BigY testers, like from the likely source region for all the Sardinian samples, North Western Italy.

 

[Hawk]

I think the Anatolian tribes were fairly mixed and rather caused autosomal backflow through marriage and migrants to Southern Thrace in particular, rather than being a big source of E-V13 on the longer run, with all the Greek colonists and Anatolian migrants. However, there surely was Byzantine gene flow into Russian territory, that's without doubt and some E-V13 surely spread that way. But we find E-V13 in the pre-Byzantine/pre-Christian Slavic period already, even among them at a fairly stable - actually higher than expected frequency. So there definitely was a pick up during the earliest Slavic expansion the latest, if not in the latest Proto-Slavic stage.
If following Udolph with the North Carpathian homeland, that could be from direct Dacian admixture, like from the remains of the Carpi and Costobocci, as well as unknown North Carpathian and forest steppe tribes.

On the longer run we will be able to sort the exact migration path out for every subclade/terminal clade. Like if looking at the above mentioned British + Sardinian-Italian spread, the time window for many of these lineages, in which they arrived, gets narrower and narrower with every new sample. Like if we get enough samples from the potential source region (Eastern Hungary-Western Romania-Northern Serbia), the areas in between and the final destination, there can be no debate any more. To some degree this can be done with very little ancient and a lot of modern DNA as well. We would just need more BigY testers, like from the likely source region for all the Sardinian samples, North Western Italy.

You completely missrepresent what i wanted to say, there were likely a flow to North-West Anatolia during Byzantine Empire from Thracians and then re-expanding with expanding Byzantine Empire. Just an observation, it doesn't mean that i necessary insist if i am proven wrong by aDNA.

As for Proto-Slavics having E-V13, i highly doubt it, seriously. Slavs were likely descended from forest steppe people, and likely were 0% E-V13.

 

[Riverman]

You completely missrepresent what i wanted to say, there were likely a flow to North-West Anatolia during Byzantine Empire from Thracians and then re-expanding with expanding Byzantine Empire. Just an observation, it doesn't mean that i necessary insist if i am proven wrong by aDNA.

That's indeed more likely, even migrating and resettled Dacians within the Byzantine sphere. I just misunderstood it - thought about the Thracians in Anatolia, which might have left a mark as well, but only a comparatively minor one. There might even have been Thracian groups among Kurds etc. as one Kurdish writer was once mentioning.

As for Proto-Slavics having E-V13, i highly doubt it, seriously. Slavs were likely descended from forest steppe people, and likely were 0% E-V13.

The South Western forest steppe was largely Daco-Thracian, part of the "Thracian Hallstatt sphere" and even if not being fully Thracian ethnically, it surely was influenced by it. Those areas were connected to other Daco-Thracian groups since G?va-Holigrady and remained such for a very long time, having influence on e.g. Chernoles or the Gothic groups with Cherniakhov-S?ntana de Mureș.

We have the clearly G?va derived and Vekerzug-Basarabi influenced groups in South Eastern Poland and Western Ukraine. Other groups are less clear, but still very clearly connected, like the West Podolian:

e ethnocultural situation in the Middle Dniester region at the beginning of the Scythian period suffered noticeable changes. In the Pre-Scythian period, the region was the borderland of the Central European and Northern Black Sea cultural zones, represented by the G?va-Holigrady and Late Chernoles ? Zhabotin cultures, and in the northeast ? the population of Vysotska culture. At the beginning of the Scythian period, the Zhabotin tribes begin to move towards the west, as a result of which the Holigrady sites in the North-Eastern Carpathian region cease to exist. At the same time, the new dominant ethnos starts using products of Scythian types in large quantities: weapons, bridles, items manufactured in the animal style. Changes occur in the ceramic tableware assemblage. The presence of Scythian types of mirrors on the Middle Dniester and cauldrons is indicative. It can be assumed that the basis of the population of the West-Podolian group was the local forest-steppe population. However, the Iranian-speaking Scythian nomads, who could have dynastic relations with the local nobility, penetrated into the region. As a result, a syncretic cultural assemblage was formed, which was reflected in a diverse funerary rite and material culture.

https://www.ceeol.com/search/article-detail?id=871442

These groups (Vysotska, West Podolian) were all related and influenced each other, its kind of the same situation as with Knobbed Ware in the South East. Basically they were a fused group of G?va-related, Lusatians, locals and Scythians. But the G?va-Lusatian related elements were clearly the dominant ones.

Vekerzug was a fused group to the West, more clearly G?va-derived, at least the Eastern cremating group (Sanislau):

In the most recent study of the Scythians in Central Europe, this period (the late 7th/early 6th century BC4 ) is identiied with the formation of the Vekerzug culture in the area of the Hungarian Alf?ld. The latter is believed to have formed due to the pressure of the ?Caucasian? wave of the Scythian nomads, activating, for example, the communities of the so -called west Podolian and Transylvania groups [Chochorowski 2014: 27]. Information provided by Herodotus ofers an indirect evidence of this inspiration. Herodotus [V; 9] claims that beyond Istern, i.e., north of the present Danube, the Sigynn people had their seat. They are believed to have had Medina (hence Caucasian) roots, as evidenced by the presence of rare sources, the so -called pintanderas [Chochorowski 2014: 27].

To sum up, the chain of events that might have been anchored in climate change led on the one hand to the dramatic depopulation of the European Lowlands, but on the other hand might have possibly ignited an economic revival in the Eastern European steppe zone. This, in turn, could have led to the migration of the nomads and the establishment of new tribal communities, which ? outside their homeland ? used the civilisation achievements of local people (see, for example, the Vekerzug culture in Alf?ld, which comprised local post -G?va and Kyatice elements ? Chochorowski 2014: 27).

https://www.academia.edu/35558153/T...ders_of_Early_Iron_Age_Strongholds_in_Podolia

I think that's also how E-V13 spread on the steppe fairly early, with Scythian backflow, from Scythians taking over such mixed groups:

Migration of the mixed West Podolian group population8 of the central Dnester region towards the upper Dnester region stimulated cultural changes over the whole territory. The Čerepin-Lagogodiv group of relics was created on the territory of the Vysocko culture (BANDRIVSKIJ 1994, 156). Its bearers were farmers with a sedentary way of life (KRU?EĽNYCKA 1993, 1776, 85-87, 89). The use of stone construction, the way how cremation remains were deposited in the burial (poured among stones or in urns) on the burial grounds of Lagogodiv and Lukovec in the Lviv region are similar to the burials in ?daňa. In the settlement complexes of the Čerepin-Lagogodiv group, there are analogies to the pots with plastic cordons combined with incisions from ?daňa and Trsten? pri Horn?de (Fig. 13). There is a remarkable difference in the grave goods between the burials from Lagogodiv and Lukovec and those from ?daňa. In ?daňa, they correspond with the poly-cultural nature of the Vekerzug culture, which is a result of the original poly-cultural milieu of the central and upper Dnester regions, where the foreign group moved from in several waves to the Tisza region. I assume that worries caused by the Scythian groups? mobility in the forest steppe, and migration activities of the West Podolian group initiated transfers of local groups of farmers living in the area between the eastern Carpathian slopes and the upper and cental Dnester river valley. Hypothetically, after crossing the Carpathian passes, groups in Carpathian Ruthenia (forming part of the Ku?tanovice culture) could have been part of the migration waves heading to the Carpathian Basin. Other groups with different lifestyles and cultural habits continued towards north-east Hungary and the adjacent area of south-east Slovakia. They brought their characteristic economy and burial customs with them to the Ko?ice Basin. Local cultural traditions, contact with the east Hallstatt cultures, impulses from the north-western Balkans, and contacts with other related groups in the area of the Vekerzug culture in the Tisza region, all participated in the formation of the culture and economy

The stone construction of the burials in ?daňa cannot be connected with local customs. It was brought to the Ko?ice Basin by foreign groups. The value of the grave goods from burials with a stone construction10 is higher than the goods from urn burials; this could reflect a higher social status of ?foreigners? and their superior position compared with the original inhabitants. What was the original territory and the character of the economy of the ?foreigners? in ?daňa? This problem can currently be solved only hypothetically. The cremation burial rite, the culturally heterogeneous grave goods, and the absence of rider burials with Scythian grave goods in the studied burials in ?daňa are closer to the communities of the central and upper right-bank territory of the Dnester River. These groups had late-Černoles and G?va-Holihrady roots, and show various stages of ?Scythization?. I cannot exclude the possibilty that together with the nomadic or semi-nomadic groups, groups of farmers who were settled in their original territory arrived in the Carpathian Basin. They found people with the same character of economy in the new territories. If we accept the north Thracian ethnicity of the G?va and Holihrady cultures, some of the foreign (and local) population on the burial ground in ?daňa had Thracian roots.

Vekerzug was a fusion of different elements:

Several migration waves from various areas of the forest-steppe of west Ukraine, together with the original population of the Tisza region participate in forming the Vekerzug culture. Migration to the Tisza region, initiated by movements in the central and upper Dnester region, was not a single action, and the arriving population was varied.

https://www.academia.edu/37401688/E...llstatt_period_the_current_state_of_knowledge



Kustanovice being sometimes considered Proto-Dacian. So the Proto-Slavs were in any case direct neighbours of North Thracians/Dacians. No doubt about that. Direct neighbourhood doesn't have to mean gene flow, but the fairly even E-V13 distribution Slavs and the very early presence in almost all early Slavic samples taken so far speaks for itself. The main source region for much of the Proto-Slavs was territory which was earlier Dacian/Daco-Thracian, so if anything, they might have picked up some remaining lineages from the region when coming in.

 

[Hawk]

I just cannot grasp your massive bias, North-West Anatolia cannot have E-V13 Thracian presence, but completely desolated Slavic forested steppe people had huge E-V13 just as Kurdish ancestors living between East Anatolia/South-West Caucasus/Northern Mesopotamia. Doesn't work like that IMO.

 

[Riverman]

I just cannot grasp your massive bias, North-West Anatolia cannot have E-V13 Thracian presence, ...

That's not what I was saying. I just said that I think that little remained from the local Thracian tribes which instantly mixed with locals, got Colonised by Greeks and overwhelmed by Anatolian-Levantine migrants from other regions of the sphere. I'm not saying there was no E-V13 there or it couldn't have spread from there (as well) to the North. Sure it could, but that was just what I have written above.

but completely desolated Slavic forested steppe people had huge E-V13 just as Kurdish ancestors living between East Anatolia/South-West Caucasus/Northern Mesopotamia. Doesn't work like that IMO.

The point is that these Western forest steppe people were, in the Iron Age, no Slavs, but closer related to Lusatians, G?va and Basarabi. The Dniestr region in particular was North Thracian territory since G?va, that's even less debatable than for e.g. Bulgaria. So one could question whether these G?va people had a lot of E-V13, I'd say so, but probably not, but the point is they were closer related to Thracians than to Slavs because of their "Thracian Hallstatt"/G?va background, culture and it seems ancestry as well.
We even have the evidence of actual G?va settlements in that area, real colonies from the North Carpathian core region. The evidence is in fact, in some respects, even more clear than some Balkan regions, because these were at first not even fused, but full scale transplants.

As for the Kurdish story, I read about it by a commenter either here or on Anthrogenica and he wrote, that actual Thracians (not Kurds) moved to Eastern Anatolia, into Kurdish territory. Didn't found the post with a general reference. However, it is important to stress that the survival in a rural, clan based society, once being established, is safer than in a dangerous or even urban context (like North West Anatolia). But this is a sideshow whether its true or not and doesn't affect the rest of the argument and debate.

Various Thracian cultural formations (G?va, Psenichevo, Basarabi etc.) moving up to Moldova and beyond:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...an-case/page12?p=638013&viewfull=1#post638013

The West Podolian, Chernoles (mixed), even more the Vysotska group, being strongly influenced by G?va and Lusatians and had more to do with those than with Baltoslavs. The more clearly Baltoslavic group is in this context of the Iron Age rather Milograd:

Up to at least Vysotska we can clearly speak of rather Thracian-related groups:

Chernoles is more complex and mixed, actual, "pure" Slavs/Baltoslavs to the North of them.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

Well, as expected.

And, this is for some people still trying to make propaganda. Read it boldly.



Another surprising thing for me, is that E-L618/E-V13 might have been present in Balkans during Mesolithic times, i zoomed the graph and indeed, it was present probably in very small percentage, but none in Neolithic and Bronze Age. It reappears during Bronze to Iron Age transition.

I just learned about this, these samples are entirely from Serbia. BA sample size is huge. No E-V13 in BA Serbia, none in Croatia, Albania, Greece, Bulgarian and Wallachia. There's is only one spot left for a potential homeland.

And in IA it shows up in strong force in Bulgaria and Serbia and in traceable amounts in eastern Celts and western Scythian world. The Daco-Thracian association is a given at this point.

When these samples are eventually released, we will know the aDNA profile of BA R-Z2103. The data is pure gold.

And the implications, the entirety of Serbia from north to south was at one point Albanian homeland. lol

 

[Riverman]

The main problem with this paper I have is that they might not have that many/any (?) Basarabi samples, which would be truly a shame for a Serbian paper of that kind, since Basarabi surely was one of the most important cultural formations and the mean spreader of E-V13 in the post-Channelled Ware earlier Iron Age environment.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I know it includes eastern Serbia, but I think it will include other regions as well. What is central is that the west is represented, from there the E-V13 pattern will become obvious, and it's association with Daco-Thracians undeniable.

I know Vatin cremated, but the Vatin variant didn't and no E-V13 is shown at all in BA samples, R-Z2103 being the central Balkan group looks reasonable for now.

 

[Hawk]

I just learned about this, these samples are entirely from Serbia. BA sample size is huge. No E-V13 in BA Serbia, none in Croatia, Albania, Greece, Bulgarian and Wallachia. There's is only one spot left for a potential homeland.

And in IA it shows up in strong force in Bulgaria and Serbia and in traceable amounts in eastern Celts and western Scythian world. The Daco-Thracian association is a given at this point.

When these samples are eventually released, we will know the aDNA profile of BA R-Z2103. The data is pure gold.

And the implications, the entirety of Serbia from north to south was at one point Albanian homeland. lol

There are two options for E-V13, either Gava and related cultures in Southern Carpathian, or Danubian Delta, extreme Eastern Balkans.

As for that poster Straboo, obviously not Irish or whatsoever, just a more sophisticated chimp version of entertain, likely this time consulted by brumi/excine what to write.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

There are two options for E-V13, either Gava and related cultures in Southern Carpathian, or Danubian Delta, extreme Eastern Balkans.

As for that poster Straboo, obviously not Irish or whatsoever, just a more sophisticated chimp version of entertain, likely this time consulted by brumi/excine what to write.

I only noticed him after you pointed it out. "ergo". :embarassed:

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I think this Serbian paper will come out this year, when rrenjet clan leader was bragging how will not have any more ancient samples from MKD, Kosovo, Bulgaria, Bosnia for 2+ years, he carefully omitted Serbia from that list. Either partial release or full release of the data is in the works for this year.

Base on the massive sample size, I highly doubt all samples come from eastern Serbia (we know that the Roman period samples are though), the large scale of the samples imply this is a study that encompasses all of Serbia. Hawk if you managed to view the lecture when it was available, please share any info of value. If not it would be worthwhile to ask the poreklo folks for it, they probably know.