To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[ioas]

This the guy who harassed a Croats member on aprcity for months because she said that Albanian weren't pure Illyrians

 

[PaleoRevenge]

FYI I am sure I speak for others as well, we don't care about your beef in apricity. Why spam this thread with quarrels and private messages.

 

[ioas]

FYI I am sure I speak for others as well, we don't care about your beef in apricity. Why spam this thread with quarrels and private messages.

Guy you don't care that he admitted to making bot accounts. He is one who brought the drama here. I wanted it to stay on aprcity but he is the one who brought here. Yeah I will stop derailing the thread

 

[PaleoRevenge]

He has been banned here multiple times. There is no reason to derail this thread.

 

[ioas]

He has been banned here multiple times. There is no reason to derail this thread.

Yeah sorry about that. Like I said I wanted it to stay on aprcity but started saying thing about me here

 

[broder]

I honestly don’t get why some of you get so emotional with Bruzmi and personalize these sort of topics.

Overall from my observation, all he has been saying during his debates with Riverman, and was able to demonstrate through his autosomal models, that V13 is more of a Balkan thing rather than Central European. Which some of us have observed from the get go. East, West etc in the Balkans is irrelevant at this point.

Be adults and spare us your emotional outbursts.

 

[Riverman]

I honestly don’t get why some of you get so emotional with Bruzmi and personalize these sort of topics.

Overall from my observation, all he has been saying during his debates with Riverman, and was able to demonstrate through his autosomal models, that V13 is more of a Balkan thing rather than Central European. Which some of us have observed from the get go. East, West etc in the Balkans is irrelevant at this point.

Be adults and spare us your emotional outbursts.

That's not correct, because he insisted for over a year E-V13 being a "West Balkan" haplogroup which spread even to areas like Bulgaria only secondarily. He altered his view once the ancient DNA evidence became overwhelming, but no earlier. And before adapting his position, he kind of fought an unfair and provocative fight while retreating, which led to some people getting banned on other fora, since they couldn't stand his manipulative style.

My position never was that E-V13 was autosomally Central European, but is a Carpatho-Balkan/Tisza-Danubian kind of haplogroup which spread with Daco-Thracians. This association of E-V13 with Daco-Thracians was played down and ridiculed by Bruzmi for a very long time and he sometimes still plays with that issue.

Therefore reducing my position to "Central European" and his to "Balkan" is kind of missing the point. Actually I said that E-V13 will turn out to be Balkan IA autosomally, but people have to understand which kind of cultures and groups lived in the Carpathian and Balkan sphere. Like samples he presented as "Pre-Gáva" were only "Pre-Gáva period" from unrelated people which were outlier even for the known Kyjatice-Western fringe Gáva samples. So completely out of question for being representative of Gáva.

And there is no way he isn't able to comprehend that, which means its bad intention to keep saying so. Its like finding a Jewish inhumation burial in the midsts of Slavic cremation burials and saying, "look, I told you, old Slavs had an Ashkenazi profile". Its just ridiculous. Just because they were buried in a territory which was only later fully Gáva, in which more than 90 percenet of the locals were always cremated doesn't mean archaeological outliers are representative of the local population.

That's the kind of debate, not "Central European" vs. "Balkan", which is a strange issue in that time anyway, because the Central European Urnfield phenomenon spread to the Balkans in the LBA and Tell cultures which influenced later Gàva came from the Balkans before. There was no strict borderline to begin with.

 

[Southpaw]

.

Therefore reducing my position to "Central European" and his to "Balkan" is kind of missing the point. Actually I said that E-V13 will turn out to be Balkan IA autosomally, but people have to understand which kind of cultures and groups lived in the Carpathian and Balkan sphere. Like samples he presented as "Pre-Gáva" were only "Pre-Gáva period" from unrelated people which were outlier even for the known Kyjatice-Western fringe Gáva samples. So completely out of question for being representative of Gáva.
.

I agree with you here, 100% correct.

 

[broder]

That's not correct, because he insisted for over a year E-V13 being a "West Balkan" haplogroup which spread even to areas like Bulgaria only secondarily. He altered his view once the ancient DNA evidence became overwhelming, but no earlier. And before adapting his position, he kind of fought an unfair and provocative fight while retreating, which led to some people getting banned on other fora, since they couldn't stand his manipulative style.

My position never was that E-V13 was autosomally Central European, but is a Carpatho-Balkan/Tisza-Danubian kind of haplogroup which spread with Daco-Thracians. This association of E-V13 with Daco-Thracians was played down and ridiculed by Bruzmi for a very long time and he sometimes still plays with that issue.

Therefore reducing my position to "Central European" and his to "Balkan" is kind of missing the point. Actually I said that E-V13 will turn out to be Balkan IA autosomally, but people have to understand which kind of cultures and groups lived in the Carpathian and Balkan sphere. Like samples he presented as "Pre-Gáva" were only "Pre-Gáva period" from unrelated people which were outlier even for the known Kyjatice-Western fringe Gáva samples. So completely out of question for being representative of Gáva.

And there is no way he isn't able to comprehend that, which means its bad intention to keep saying so. Its like finding a Jewish inhumation burial in the midsts of Slavic cremation burials and saying, "look, I told you, old Slavs had an Ashkenazi profile". Its just ridiculous. Just because they were buried in a territory which was only later fully Gáva, in which more than 90 percenet of the locals were always cremated doesn't mean archaeological outliers are representative of the local population.

That's the kind of debate, not "Central European" vs. "Balkan", which is a strange issue in that time anyway, because the Central European Urnfield phenomenon spread to the Balkans in the LBA and Tell cultures which influenced later Gàva came from the Balkans before. There was no strict borderline to begin with.

Dude, your theories are even more incoherent. You started with Urnfield and Central Europe back in the day. Littering every thread. I don’t know what you are claiming now because I don’t read your walls of text anymore.

Still, no need to cus or disrespect you because I disagree with you..

 

[Riverman]

Dude, your theories are even more incoherent. You started with Urnfield and Central Europe back in the day. Littering every thread. I don’t know what you are claiming now because I don’t read your walls of text anymore.

Still, no need to cus or disrespect you because I disagree with you..

Gáva is an East Carpathian basin group with ties to earlier cultures from the region which were all connected to the Central and Eastern Balkans. Therefore even if I'm right, Gáva is not Central European in the same way as Füzesabony (much more Corded Ware shifted) or Tumulus culture (much more Bell Beaker shifted).
Just like later Dacians lived from the Central Balkans to Poland-Ukraine. Eastern Urnfield groups like Gáva and Belegis II-Gáva are pretty specific and the spread of Channelled Ware in the Balkans is so too. The Tisza-Danube zone belongs to Central Europe, and they were part of the wider Urnfield sphere, yes, but its not the same kind of people and culture as the Celts.

There are different people in the same macro-region, just like Greeks, Thracians, Illyrians and Celts in the Balkans are not the same people, even if they lived in the same wider region.

And you know what, contrary to Bruzmi, I had so far no reason to retract from what I said before. because Gáva and Belegis II-Gáva are still the top contenders for the main spreading and expansion event of E-V13. On the other hand, Bruzmis theory of a West Balkan origin with Illyrians is dead and buried by now. It was so a long time ago, but he just refused to admit it.

West vs. East Balkan matters a lot, because the East Balkans got flooded by Channelled Ware and Urnfielders, which formed the base for the "Thracian Hallstatt" cultures, whereas the West Balkan was dominated by the Illyrian clan tumuli and their inhumation burials.

 

[Southpaw]

Gáva is an East Carpathian basin group with ties to earlier cultures from the region which were all connected to the Central and Eastern Balkans. Therefore even if I'm right, Gáva is not Central European in the same way as Füzesabony (much more Corded Ware shifted) or Tumulus culture (much more Bell Beaker shifted).
Just like later Dacians lived from the Central Balkans to Poland-Ukraine. Eastern Urnfield groups like Gáva and Belegis II-Gáva are pretty specific and the spread of Channelled Ware in the Balkans is so too. The Tisza-Danube zone belongs to Central Europe, and they were part of the wider Urnfield sphere, yes, but its not the same kind of people and culture as the Celts.

There are different people in the same macro-region, just like Greeks, Thracians, Illyrians and Celts in the Balkans are not the same people, even if they lived in the same wider region.

And you know what, contrary to Bruzmi, I had so far no reason to retract from what I said before. because Gáva and Belegis II-Gáva are still the top contenders for the main spreading and expansion event of E-V13. On the other hand, Bruzmis theory of a West Balkan origin with Illyrians is dead and buried by now. It was so a long time ago, but he just refused to admit it.

West vs. East Balkan matters a lot, because the East Balkans got flooded by Channelled Ware and Urnfielders, which formed the base for the "Thracian Hallstatt" cultures, whereas the West Balkan was dominated by the Illyrian clan tumuli and their inhumation burials.

You are wasting your time and energy with every character you write. Dude is dishonest as ****. He'll come up with a shady response.

 

[broder]

Right, back at it again. Like bots.

 

[Southpaw]

Here comes the guy who has observed things, from get go, for every haplogroup, they are from planet earth. Mark his words.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I don't are at this point what they have to say. I just want to see the results from the alleged new paper that's due any day now. Has it been two weeks yet?

 

[Southpaw]

I don't are at this point what they have to say. I just want to see the results from the alleged new paper that's due any day now. Has it been two weeks yet?

That will answer a lot of questions for sure, and will tighten up loose holes. As i said, there is no escape from it. We need to find new hobbies soon.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Gáva is an East Carpathian basin group with ties to earlier cultures from the region which were all connected to the Central and Eastern Balkans. Therefore even if I'm right, Gáva is not Central European in the same way as Füzesabony (much more Corded Ware shifted) or Tumulus culture (much more Bell Beaker shifted).
Just like later Dacians lived from the Central Balkans to Poland-Ukraine. Eastern Urnfield groups like Gáva and Belegis II-Gáva are pretty specific and the spread of Channelled Ware in the Balkans is so too. The Tisza-Danube zone belongs to Central Europe, and they were part of the wider Urnfield sphere, yes, but its not the same kind of people and culture as the Celts.

There are different people in the same macro-region, just like Greeks, Thracians, Illyrians and Celts in the Balkans are not the same people, even if they lived in the same wider region.

And you know what, contrary to Bruzmi, I had so far no reason to retract from what I said before. because Gáva and Belegis II-Gáva are still the top contenders for the main spreading and expansion event of E-V13. On the other hand, Bruzmis theory of a West Balkan origin with Illyrians is dead and buried by now. It was so a long time ago, but he just refused to admit it.

West vs. East Balkan matters a lot, because the East Balkans got flooded by Channelled Ware and Urnfielders, which formed the base for the "Thracian Hallstatt" cultures, whereas the West Balkan was dominated by the Illyrian clan tumuli and their inhumation burials.

Why do you say that Urnfield was Celtic? In terms of ancient DNA this is what we have so far -

"A genetic study published in Nature in March 2015 examined the remains of an Urnfield male buried in Halberstadt, Germany ca 1100-1000 BC.[124][125] He was found to be a carrier of the paternal haplogroup R1a1a1b1a2 and the maternal haplogroup H23.[124]

A genetic study published in Science in March 2019 found a significant increase in north-central European ancestry in Iberia during the transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age. The authors of the study suggested that the spread of the Urnfield culture was associated with this transition, during which the Celtiberians may have emerged.[126] A Celtiberian male examined in the study was found to be a carrier of the paternal haplogroup I2a1a1a."

"Each is characterized by diagnostic pottery and metal types. By the end of the 2nd millennium bc, the Urnfield Tradition had spread through Italy, northwestern Europe, and as far west as the Pyrenees. It is at this time that fortified hilltop settlements and sheet‐bronze metalworking also spread widely across Europe, leading some authorities to equate these changes with the expansion of the Celts. These links are no longer accepted."

 

[Southpaw]

Why do you say that Urnfield was Celtic? In terms of ancient DNA this is what we have so far -

"A genetic study published in Nature in March 2015 examined the remains of an Urnfield male buried in Halberstadt, Germany ca 1100-1000 BC.[124][125] He was found to be a carrier of the paternal haplogroup R1a1a1b1a2 and the maternal haplogroup H23.[124]

A genetic study published in Science in March 2019 found a significant increase in north-central European ancestry in Iberia during the transition from the Bronze Age to the Iron Age. The authors of the study suggested that the spread of the Urnfield culture was associated with this transition, during which the Celtiberians may have emerged.[126] A Celtiberian male examined in the study was found to be a carrier of the paternal haplogroup I2a1a1a."

"Each is characterized by diagnostic pottery and metal types. By the end of the 2nd millennium bc, the Urnfield Tradition had spread through Italy, northwestern Europe, and as far west as the Pyrenees. It is at this time that fortified hilltop settlements and sheet‐bronze metalworking also spread widely across Europe, leading some authorities to equate these changes with the expansion of the Celts. These links are no longer accepted."

Celts during Iron Age were the biggest nation in Europe, second coming Thracians. Tough as nails, if Celts-Gauls were not so divided they would have been such a menace, same applies for Daco-Thracians which Herodotus already mentioned.

Celts were immediate descendants of La Tene Hallstatt/Hallstatt hence Urnfield, they are the most known representatives of that complex.

Look at Romans, from armour, helmet to their deadly gladius sword, they took it from Gauls-Celts.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Celts during Iron Age were the biggest nation in Europe, second coming Thracians.

Celts were immediate descendants of La Tene Hallstatt/Hallstatt hence Urnfield, they are the most known representatives of that complex.

Urnfield is too early for Celts, they emerged as a group during later stages of Hallstatt and La Tene, were using inhumation instead of cremation -

"Hallstatt A–B (1200–800 BC) are part of the Bronze Age Urnfield culture. In this period, people were cremated and buried in simple graves. In phase B, tumulus (barrow or kurgan) burial becomes common, and cremation predominates. The "Hallstatt period" proper is restricted to HaC and HaD (800–450 BC), corresponding to the early European Iron Age. Hallstatt lies in the area where the western and eastern zones of the Hallstatt culture meet, which is reflected in the finds from there.[9] Hallstatt D is succeeded by the La Tène culture.

Hallstatt C is characterized by the first appearance of iron swords mixed amongst the bronze ones. Inhumation and cremation co-occur. For the final phase, Hallstatt D, daggers, almost to the exclusion of swords, are found in western zone graves ranging from c. 600–500 BC.[10] There are also differences in the pottery and brooches. Burials were mostly inhumations. Halstatt D has been further divided into the sub-phases D1–D3, relating only to the western zone, and mainly based on the form of brooches."

 

[Southpaw]

Urnfield is too early for Celts, they emerged as a group during later stages of Hallstatt and La Tene, were using inhumation instead of cremation -

"Hallstatt A–B (1200–800 BC) are part of the Bronze Age Urnfield culture. In this period, people were cremated and buried in simple graves. In phase B, tumulus (barrow or kurgan) burial becomes common, and cremation predominates. The "Hallstatt period" proper is restricted to HaC and HaD (800–450 BC), corresponding to the early European Iron Age. Hallstatt lies in the area where the western and eastern zones of the Hallstatt culture meet, which is reflected in the finds from there.[9] Hallstatt D is succeeded by the La Tène culture.

Hallstatt C is characterized by the first appearance of iron swords mixed amongst the bronze ones. Inhumation and cremation co-occur. For the final phase, Hallstatt D, daggers, almost to the exclusion of swords, are found in western zone graves ranging from c. 600–500 BC.[10] There are also differences in the pottery and brooches. Burials were mostly inhumations. Halstatt D has been further divided into the sub-phases D1–D3, relating only to the western zone, and mainly based on the form of brooches."

Urnfield included many people, but Celts to the west are the most known representatives. Also Celts practiced cremation as well in combination with inhumation.

 

[TetaEglantina]

Urnfield included many people, but Celts to the west are the most known representatives. Also Celts practiced cremation as well in combination with inhumation.

I believe Celts had nothing to do with the Urnfield elite (cremators) because they hadn't formed as a unified group yet, they were a western offshoot that later created La Tene. Celts were mostly R1b, meanwhile Urnfield wasn't -

Lichtenstein Cave - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org