To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[eupator]

I've seen some pictures of a video of a lecture floating around on the web, showing the evolution of the haplogroup distribution from mesolithic and BA all the way to Roman times?

It showed confirmed Z2103s on the chart, anyone knows if there's a study coming with such Balkan (and Thracian) samples coming up?

 

[Riverman]

I've seen some pictures of a video of a lecture floating around on the web, showing the evolution of the haplogroup distribution from mesolithic and BA all the way to Roman times?

It showed confirmed Z2103s on the chart, anyone knows if there's a study coming with such Balkan (and Thracian) samples coming up?

I know about two papers, one Serbian one and another one for Western Romania, Transylvania. Additionally, there are Hungarian Bronze Age samples which got leaked before, some even used in papers here and there, but most being not published for years now. Another third one, either included into the Serbian or independent, will deal with Gomolava specifically, the mass burial from the Transitional Period (Belegis II-G?va, Gornea-Kalakacza, Basarabi affiliated, exact affiliation unclear). Those could/should be published rather sooner than later and are probably the most important ones done as of yet.
There are surely others in the pipeline, including on Greeks etc.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

I've seen some pictures of a video of a lecture floating around on the web, showing the evolution of the haplogroup distribution from mesolithic and BA all the way to Roman times?

It showed confirmed Z2103s on the chart, anyone knows if there's a study coming with such Balkan (and Thracian) samples coming up?

That was from Carles Fox presentation in Belgrade. The Alb project manager leaked in his arrogance that Carles is also working on a BA samples(where a couple of PF7562 have been found in Montenegro according to his female like hints). These mystery Z2103 from the Bronze Age are undoubtedly from this project. Since Carles seems to be involved in Montenegro and Serbia, I think his project encompasses Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia.

With these assumptions I think Z2103 is mostly concentrated in BA Serbia, with some in Macedonia and PF7562 mostly in EBA and BA Macedonia and some in EBA Montenegro (pre-Cetina, Shkodra is speculated to be a Phrygian toponym not Illyrian). J2a most likely centered in Macedonia with some in Serbia.

Unfortunately there is no preview floating on the net, other than a chart, and big mouths who can't help themselves but slip things out.

 

[torzio]

That was from Carles Fox presentation in Belgrade. The Alb project manager leaked in his arrogance that Carles is also working on a BA samples(where a couple of PF7562 have been found in Montenegro according to his female like hints). These mystery Z2103 from the Bronze Age are undoubtedly from this project. Since Carles seems to be involved in Montenegro and Serbia, I think his project encompasses Montenegro, Serbia and Macedonia.

With these assumptions I think Z2103 is mostly concentrated in BA Serbia, with some in Macedonia and PF7562 mostly in EBA and BA Macedonia and some in EBA Montenegro (pre-Cetina, Shkodra is speculated to be a Phrygian toponym not Illyrian). J2a most likely centered in Macedonia with some in Serbia.

Unfortunately there is no preview floating on the net, other than a chart, and big mouths who can't help themselves but slip things out.

Bryges and Phrygian are the same people

Bryges are contained in the historical writings of Herodotus, who relates them to Phrygians, stating that according to the Macedonians, the Bryges "changed their name" to Phryges after migrating into Anatolia,[3]

Bryges are stated as origins in modern northern Albania ................one group migrating north towards eastern Hungaria and another migrating into modern western Turkey

 

[Johane Derite]

In his 2020 paper, Ruppenstein argues that the Dorians were pushed south by migrants from the Brnjica culture, who had likewise been pushed south by the Belegis II - Gava (Channelled Ware).

(Reminder that Bruzmi used to try claim that Brnjica culture didn't actually exist, and he was still supported by his dumb flying monkeys who know nothing)

 

[PaleoRevenge]

The Bernjica expansion into Macedonia was more of permanent nature before pressure from Belegis II. I didn't know of this until I read literature more carefully. These maps give a basic summary.

In late Bronze Age, Brnjica is expanding and colonizing in Struma river valley, a future stronghold of Paeoni. it is also present in the neighborhood of Thesaloniki but mixed with local cultures. The Bronze Age collapse movements are more mixed in nature. But a good portion of Brnica retreated into the mountains and in essence would have joined their brethren in Struma river valley, it is a adjacent region to the mountains they would have taken shelter.

Real questions that are unclear is how much did the Brnica survive in it's original habitat, as a people with a ethnic conscious.

In the map you labeled Dorians would have included Phrygian habitat as well. I personally think Dorians also carried R1b-PF7562, but it is likely stronger in Phrygians. A peripheral Phrygian group mixed with elements of Brnica is what likely makes up the Messapi. It is interesting that there is group less talked about in Italy called the Chones, that once lived adjacent to Messapii in the province of Metaponto. They were driven out by Leucani into the Greek colonies. This region(Ionian Calabria) has the highest frequency of R1b-PF7562 in Italy, and the Chones are thought to be connected to Chaonians.

I want to highlight Hammond thought the Illyrians that invaded south Albania lake region were Dardani. And we know from the preprint that these "Illyrians" brought R1b-Z2103. It is indirect evidence, but it is becoming clear R1b-Z2103 represent a group that lived east of the Illyrians, and decent from the cremation cultures of the BA per map above.

 

[Southpaw]

I think that the constant appearance of R1b-PF7562 and absence of R1b-Z2103 in Mycenean and latter Greeks is huge surprise just as if E-V13 is totally absent in Ancient Greece would be a huge surprise considering the archaeological incursions of Urnfield-like people down in Greece during LBA/EIA.

It's either a surprise to us, or we had little understanding of dynamics of Balkans Bronze Age and Iron Age, we had biased views. I also think that the constant quarrels between Balkanites makes one less objective.

I believe that there must have been a domino-effect coming in, and the usual thinking was that it started when in around 1500 B.C the shepherd-warriors from Southern Bavaria migrated from East Alps toward Carpathians and invaded this whole area. They likely carried R1b-L51. They started displacing Encrusted Pottery people carrying I2a and G2a en masse and so on and so forth.

The trick in all of this is where does E-V13 stand, was it very deep in Carpathians in heavy-cremating groups like Hatvan, Vatya, Vatin, Cotofeni, Tei? or something more in South (Haemus-Rhodope Mountains) having cultural affections with both North Aegean and Carpathians. That's hard to guess at the moment.

 

[Riverman]

I think that the constant appearance of R1b-PF7562 and absence of R1b-Z2103 in Mycenean and latter Greeks is huge surprise just as if E-V13 is totally absent in Ancient Greece would be a huge surprise considering the archaeological incursions of Urnfield-like people down in Greece during LBA/EIA.

Even before the results came out, I wrote about the fact that many authors saw the Urnfield incursions into Greece being largely pushed back and soaked up by the locals. I think if anything, the current results prove how important ethnic boundaries were and that foreign males being only reluctantly accepted in the own community, unless there was a special occasion, like a big alliance out of necessity, a conquest with one group forming the upper class etc. But in Greece the Greek-Thracian borderlands is where we have to look first for E-V13 and there wasn't that much testing as of yet.

I believe that there must have been a domino-effect coming in, and the usual thinking was that it started when in around 1500 B.C the shepherd-warriors from Southern Bavaria migrated from East Alps toward Carpathians and invaded this whole area. They likely carried R1b-L51. They started displacing Encrusted Pottery people carrying I2a and G2a en masse and so on and so forth.

There were three major invasions into the Carpatho-Balkan sphere:
- F?zesabony-Otomani from the North, coming from Kostany-Mierzanowice (R-Z283 dominated)
- Tumulus culture from the West (R-L51/L2 dominated, we got the samples, it is a clear thing)
- Sabatinovka from the East (R-Z93 dominated), forming Noua-Coslogeni

We could add a 4th, which would be the Proto-Illyrian Cetina and related groups in the Adriatic, being J-L283 dominated.

So basically, there were pushes from all directions, all the time. And G?va/Belegis/Channelled Ware was the biggest and most lasting one up to this point (EIA).

The trick in all of this is where does E-V13 stand, was it very deep in Carpathians in heavy-cremating groups like Hatvan, Vatya, Vatin, Cotofeni, Tei? or something more in South (Haemus-Rhodope Mountains) having cultural affections with both North Aegean and Carpathians. That's hard to guess at the moment.

Basically its a process of elimination, because any scenario and archaeological formation needs to meet some criteria:
- Still undersampled region and culture, many of the potential candidate groups being already sampled and out of the game.
- Central position to allow the later spread of Daco-Thracians and the observable modern phylogeny and distribution.
- The timings and demographics must fit the available data - like it can't have been a minor group which started to grow only in the EIA, the fairly significant growth started in the EBA-MBA already.
- The associated archaeological cultures must show the expansion needed, in the predicted time frame (peak in the Transitional Period, between 1.300-900 BC)

If we consider all these parameters, E-V13 can only have started and expanded with the Carpathian cremating cultures.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

A lesser known Balkan dervied group in Italy called Chones(Greeks called them Chaones):

Such, along the shores of the Tyrrhenian Sea, are the possessions of the Leucani, which at first did not reach to the other sea; ^note the Greeks who dwelt on the Gulf of Tarentum possessed it. But before the coming of the Greeks there were no Leucani, the Chones ^note and Oenotri possessed these territories. But when the Samnites had greatly increased, and expelled the Chones and Oenotri, and driven the Leucani into this region, while the Greeks possessed the seacoast on both sides as far as the straits, the Greeks and the Barbarians maintained a lengthened contest. The tyrants of Sicily, and afterwards the Carthaginians, at one time making war against the Romans, for the acquisition of Sicily, and at another, for Italy itself, utterly wasted all these regions. The Greeks, however, succeeded in depriving the ancient inhabitants of a great portion of the midland country, beginning even as early as the Trojan war; they increased in power, and extent of territory, to such a degree, that they called this region and Sicily, the Magna Graecia. But now the whole region, except Tarentum, Rhegium, and Neapolis, has become barbarian, ^note and belongs partly to the Leucani and Bruttii, partly to the Campani; to these, however, only in name, but truly to the Romans; for these people have become Roman. However, it is incumbent on one who is treating of uni-

https://anastrophe.uchicago.edu/cgi...pl?dbname=GreekNov21&query=Str. 6.1.3&getid=1

Strabo seems here to distinguish the Chones from the Oenotri, and the CEnotri from the Greeks. According to Cluvier (Ital. Antiq. cap. 16, p. 1323) here was a double error: not only (says he) Aristotle, but Antiochus, according to Strabo's own testimony, positively affirmed that the Chones and Oenotri were one and the same nation, and Dionysius of Halicarnassus (Antiq. Roman. lib. i. § 11) makes no doubt that the Oenotri were of Greek origin. But Mazochi justifies the distinction between the Chones and the Oenotri, and shows cause to doubt that the Oenotri were of Greek origin.

https://anastrophe.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/perseus/getnote.pl?c.384:19:0:-1:4210.GreekNov21

Intriguingly, the Greek version of the tribe's name, Chaones, is remarkably similar to that of the Chaonians of Epirus. This tribe was dominant in that region until the twelfth century, which is perhaps a century before many Illyrians migrated from the southern Balkans into south-eastern Italy. Greek authors thought that these Illyrians had a Greek origin, so the possibility is suggested that the Italic Chones may have been Epirote Chaonians who migrated out of the lower Balkans in the eleventh or tenth century, after losing their domination of the area.

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/ItalyChones.htm

The region of Ionian Calabria(the heel on top Italy) today has the highest frequency of R1b-PF7562 in all of Italy.

 

[Southpaw]

Even before the results came out, I wrote about the fact that many authors saw the Urnfield incursions into Greece being largely pushed back and soaked up by the locals. I think if anything, the current results prove how important ethnic boundaries were and that foreign males being only reluctantly accepted in the own community, unless there was a special occasion, like a big alliance out of necessity, a conquest with one group forming the upper class etc. But in Greece the Greek-Thracian borderlands is where we have to look first for E-V13 and there wasn't that much testing as of yet.



There were three major invasions into the Carpatho-Balkan sphere:
- F�zesabony-Otomani from the North, coming from Kostany-Mierzanowice (R-Z283 dominated)
- Tumulus culture from the West (R-L51/L2 dominated, we got the samples, it is a clear thing)
- Sabatinovka from the East (R-Z93 dominated), forming Noua-Coslogeni

We could add a 4th, which would be the Proto-Illyrian Cetina and related groups in the Adriatic, being J-L283 dominated.

So basically, there were pushes from all directions, all the time. And G�va/Belegis/Channelled Ware was the biggest and most lasting one up to this point (EIA).



Basically its a process of elimination, because any scenario and archaeological formation needs to meet some criteria:
- Still undersampled region and culture, many of the potential candidate groups being already sampled and out of the game.
- Central position to allow the later spread of Daco-Thracians and the observable modern phylogeny and distribution.
- The timings and demographics must fit the available data - like it can't have been a minor group which started to grow only in the EIA, the fairly significant growth started in the EBA-MBA already.
- The associated archaeological cultures must show the expansion needed, in the predicted time frame (peak in the Transitional Period, between 1.300-900 BC)

If we consider all these parameters, E-V13 can only have started and expanded with the Carpathian cremating cultures.


[/COLOR]

Your position and theory makes quite a lot of sense, but somehow rafc's theory cannot be refuted. So, i am confused and of course quite curious about the outcome. I believe more sampling will bring us to the truth, be it through negation or direct evidence, or indirect evidence.

 

[Johane Derite]

The Bernjica expansion into Macedonia was more of permanent nature before pressure from Belegis II. I didn't know of this until I read literature more carefully. These maps give a basic summary.

In late Bronze Age, Brnjica is expanding and colonizing in Struma river valley, a future stronghold of Paeoni. it is also present in the neighborhood of Thesaloniki but mixed with local cultures. The Bronze Age collapse movements are more mixed in nature. But a good portion of Brnica retreated into the mountains and in essence would have joined their brethren in Struma river valley, it is a adjacent region to the mountains they would have taken shelter.

Real questions that are unclear is how much did the Brnica survive in it's original habitat, as a people with a ethnic conscious.

In the map you labeled Dorians would have included Phrygian habitat as well. I personally think Dorians also carried R1b-PF7562, but it is likely stronger in Phrygians. A peripheral Phrygian group mixed with elements of Brnica is what likely makes up the Messapi. It is interesting that there is group less talked about in Italy called the Chones, that once lived adjacent to Messapii in the province of Metaponto. They were driven out by Leucani into the Greek colonies. This region(Ionian Calabria) has the highest frequency of R1b-PF7562 in Italy, and the Chones are thought to be connected to Chaonians.

I want to highlight Hammond thought the Illyrians that invaded south Albania lake region were Dardani. And we know from the preprint that these "Illyrians" brought R1b-Z2103. It is indirect evidence, but it is becoming clear R1b-Z2103 represent a group that lived east of the Illyrians, and decent from the cremation cultures of the BA per map above.

For now it seems most probable that that brnjica were proto-paeonian.

I don't know how much I am convinced of those early dates, im sure some early migration would have started, but surely the bulk must have happened when belegis waa also moving into and taking over dardanian regions?

 

[Johane Derite]

Your position and theory makes quite a lot of sense, but somehow rafc's theory cannot be refuted. So, i am confused and of course quite curious about the outcome. I believe more sampling will bring us to the truth, be it through negation or direct evidence, or indirect evidence.

What is rafc's theory as I've been busy with work

 

[Southpaw]

What is rafc's theory as I've been busy with work

Stamped-Ware and E-V13 originate from Northern Aegean/modern South Bulgaria and during LBA/EIA they expanded North and colonized Carpathian and lower Danube. I wouldn't be surprised if E-V13 was there in Haemus/Stara-Planina/Balkan Mountain and Rhodope Mountain chains.

 

[PaleoRevenge]

For now it seems most probable that that brnjica were proto-paeonian.

I don't know how much I am convinced of those early dates, im sure some early migration would have started, but surely the bulk must have happened when belegis waa also moving into and taking over dardanian regions?

You'd have to go back to the Serbian article on Bernica, they flourished and grew strong in 14-13th century BCE and expanded, the Brnica like burials in southern Greece(Argolis?) date to this period, the golden age of BA Dardanians of a sort. What info we need more of is what happened to their colonies in Struma river valley, did they dissolve or continue as their own culture, the map shows group 6 growing bigger. I 'm assuming this means Brnica there took hold and expanded. The Belegis invasion would have only supplied more refugees to the Bulgarian-MKD border region of Bernica stock.

The Belegis chain migration was chaotic in nature and it led to fusing of different people/cultures.

 

[Riverman]

Your position and theory makes quite a lot of sense, but somehow rafc's theory cannot be refuted. So, i am confused and of course quite curious about the outcome. I believe more sampling will bring us to the truth, be it through negation or direct evidence, or indirect evidence.

Have you seen his recent PCA's? We deal with two major movements, one around Transylvania-Banat in all directions, especially East and South, and a second from around the Danube upwards, with influences from further down, in the South. This is clearly the two pulses from within the Carpatho-Balkan cremation koine, from Channelled Ware, first with the G?va-related expansion, then the splitting by the Cimmerians, witht the Greco-Anatolian/South Eastern Balkan admixed groups expanding with Stamped Ware/Basarabi.

There is no "Stamped Ware tribe" hiding out during Channelled Ware, which replaced them. That was all a process from within the sphere Channelled Ware created.

Stamped-Ware and E-V13 originate from Northern Aegean/modern South Bulgaria and during LBA/EIA they expanded North and colonized Carpathian and lower Danube. I wouldn't be surprised if E-V13 was there in Haemus/Stara-Planina/Balkan Mountain and Rhodope Mountain chains.

The question is WHEN they were there. And its rather unlikely that this was their home in the EBA-MBA. Because all those movements are rather centered around the Tisza-Mures-Danube river system, not at the fringes. Those E-V13 groups in Southern Bulgaria came into existence because of the migrations in the LBA and EIA. They weren't there before.

Talking about the Mycenaean Greeks, that they got no E-V13 in higher numbers, probably none at all, before the first migrants from the Carpatho-Danubian sphere came down to them and spread Barbarian/Fluted Ware, is a crucial piece of evidence. That area you are talking about was likely more Greek-affiliated before the Transitional Period, and only became Thracian and E-V13 rich in the LBA.

That was a very different sphere in the EBA-MBA. Only later, after all those Northern migrants came, it became part of the larger Daco-Thracian world and remained part of if up to the Roman era.

 

[Southpaw]

Have you seen his recent PCA's? We deal with two major movements, one around Transylvania-Banat in all directions, especially East and South, and a second from around the Danube upwards, with influences from further down, in the South. This is clearly the two pulses from within the Carpatho-Balkan cremation koine, from Channelled Ware, first with the G�va-related expansion, then the splitting by the Cimmerians, witht the Greco-Anatolian/South Eastern Balkan admixed groups expanding with Stamped Ware/Basarabi.

There is no "Stamped Ware tribe" hiding out during Channelled Ware, which replaced them. That was all a process from within the sphere Channelled Ware created.



The question is WHEN they were there. And its rather unlikely that this was their home in the EBA-MBA. Because all those movements are rather centered around the Tisza-Mures-Danube river system, not at the fringes. Those E-V13 groups in Southern Bulgaria came into existence because of the migrations in the LBA and EIA. They weren't there before.

Talking about the Mycenaean Greeks, that they got no E-V13 in higher numbers, probably none at all, before the first migrants from the Carpatho-Danubian sphere came down to them and spread Barbarian/Fluted Ware, is a crucial piece of evidence. That area you are talking about was likely more Greek-affiliated before the Transitional Period, and only became Thracian and E-V13 rich in the LBA.

That was a very different sphere in the EBA-MBA. Only later, after all those Northern migrants came, it became part of the larger Daco-Thracian world and remained part of if up to the Roman era.

Have you seen this from this paper?

Haplogroup E-V13 displays a star-like network radiating from a central haplotype mainly found in the Balkan populations. This pattern, together with coalescence estimates, points to a recent and rapid expansion of this lineage in the Balkans. Not considering Bosnian Croats and Macedonian Greeks, for which standard errors are too large, the highest age in the Balkans, dating back to Mesolithic times, is found in Western Bulgaria (9.3±3 kya). This value, which overlaps that registered in Turkey (10.6±3 kya), indicates that haplogroup E-V13 was already present (if not originated) in Mesolithic times in Western Bulgaria from where it underwent expansion with the transition to farming.https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3590186/

It doesn't neccessary mean that they should be correct about Mesolithic, thought we saw from Fox video that 1 E-L618/E-V13 should be present. But Western Bulgaria and Eastern Serbia can actually be quite viable option.

 

[Riverman]

Have you seen this from this paper?



It doesn't neccessary mean that they should be correct about Mesolithic, thought we saw from Fox video that 1 E-L618/E-V13 should be present. But Western Bulgaria and Eastern Serbia can actually be quite viable option.

Those old STR-papers are funny, its like judging my matches by the 12 STR values. There were these old papers about E-V13 in Druze and stuff. We now can say for sure that this is due to Bronze-Iron Age and later back migrations.

You got another paper which points to very deep, distinct E-V13 branches in Slovakia! It was discussed either here or on Anthrogenica before.

And the real point is not even where E-L618/E-V13 lived in the Neolithic, because it was fairly widespread, but where it weathered the steppe invasion storm, recovered and expanded back. And for that the Cotofeni culture is just the prime obvious candidate, even more so since this group developed the religous-burial custom of cremation!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coțofeni_culture

In fact its one of the few groups with known, persisting Copper Age continuation in a fusion with steppe groups (Cernavoda-Usatovo related).

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/Ямная_культура.jpg

 

[Southpaw]

Not related to the thread but anyway: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

We have a new E-L618 from Egypt. So, big chances E-L618 originates in Mesolithic Egypt.

 

[Riverman]

Not related to the thread but anyway: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L618/

We have a new E-L618 from Egypt. So, big chances E-L618 originates in Mesolithic Egypt.

A large fraction of Egyptian yDNA comes from the Near East though.

 

[Jovialis]

could you summarize this link: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/41672-To-burn-or-not-to-burn-LBA-EIA-Balkan-case



ChatGPT:

The discussion thread on the Eupedia forum titled "To burn or not to burn: LBA-EIA Balkan case" is focused on the cultural and genetic transitions in the Balkans during the Late Bronze Age (LBA) and Early Iron Age (EIA). The discussion primarily revolves around the haplogroup E-V13, burial practices (especially cremation), and the influence of migrations and invasions on the populations in this region.


Key takeaways from the discussion include:


The haplogroup E-V13 is common in the Balkans and may mark some of the Greek demographic input to Cyprus from the Late Bronze Age through the Iron Age. There is mention of a network analysis of 46 E-V13 haplotypes showing a discrete clustering of 15 samples suggestive of a sub-haplogroup, which is characterized by DYS437 = 15 repeats not seen in the Anatolian Greek population or in the Provence samples. The remaining 31 samples overlap with the Anatolian Greek E-V13 lineages​1​.


There was an expansion of secondary cremation as a burial practice in the Early Iron Age, with a more prominent reappearance around the 12th-11th centuries BCE. This practice is particularly notable in the north of Greece. The discussion links this "transitional period" to the main timing for the first and biggest E-V13 expansion down into the Balkans​2​.


The thread discusses the influence of migrations from the north, particularly the Channelled Ware related, Early Iron Age expansions from the Vojvodina and the Morava valley. These migrations were associated with changes in burial customs and had a significant impact on the Greek tribes, especially the Northern ones. The newcomers were a mixed group, with significant representation from the E-V13 haplogroup. The impact of this migration is discussed in the context of the cultural and genetic influence on the Greeks in the LBA-EIA transition​3​.


A point of contention is the timing of an invasion at 1200 BCE and a resettlement at 950 BCE. The thread does not provide a resolution to this conundrum​4​.


The influence of Channelled Ware related people on the Dorians is noted. The author suggests that if the Dorians were found to have no E-V13, it would be a surprise due to the clear influence of the Channelled Ware related people. The influence of these groups had more impact on the Aegean than the Dalmatian coast initially​5​.


The thread discusses the traditional assignment of groups in the region, with the Illyrian Autariatae associated more with the J-L283 haplogroup and the Dardani and Triballi associated more with the E-V13 haplogroup. The Channelled Ware groups did not penetrate down to the coast on the Western Balkans, but rather moved from Vojvodina over Kosovo down to Northern Greece. The author suggests that those cultures penetrated by the migration of the Channelled/Fluted Ware people and their successor cultures should have the E-V13 haplogroup​6​.


I have not yet completed reading the entire thread. The summary provided is based on the initial posts and some subsequent ones. Therefore, there may be additional details, nuances, or later developments in the discussion that are not captured here. If you are interested in a more detailed or complete summary, I can continue reviewing the thread.

Does this make sense with genetic studies, history, and pre-history?


ChatGPT:


The information on the Eupedia forum appears to align broadly with what is known from genetic studies, history, and pre-history, but it's important to note that the fields of ancient DNA, population genetics, and archeology are complex and continuously evolving. As new evidence is uncovered, interpretations can change.


Genetic studies: The presence of the E-V13 haplogroup in the Balkans and Greece is supported by genetic studies. E-V13 is indeed common in these regions, and studies suggest that it expanded significantly during the Bronze Age, which aligns with the discussion on the Eupedia forum. However, the precise routes and timings of these expansions, and their association with specific cultural shifts such as changes in burial practices, are areas of ongoing research and debate. The use of network analysis to identify clusters within the E-V13 haplogroup also aligns with techniques used in population genetics.


History and Pre-history: The discussion of migrations and invasions, changes in burial practices, and the impact of these events on the populations of the Balkans and Greece, is consistent with what is known from history and pre-history. The Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age were indeed periods of significant cultural and demographic change in these regions. However, the specific interpretations offered on the forum - such as the association of the Dardani and Triballi with the E-V13 haplogroup, or the impact of the Channelled Ware culture on the Dorians - are likely based on a combination of genetic, archaeological, and historical evidence, and should be considered in the context of the broader scholarly debate in these fields.


In conclusion, the discussion on the Eupedia forum appears to be well-informed and to engage with the current scientific debate on these topics. However, the interpretation of ancient DNA and archaeological evidence is complex and requires careful evaluation of multiple lines of evidence. Therefore, while the forum provides a valuable discussion and exploration of these topics, it's important to also consult academic sources and to be aware that interpretations can evolve as new evidence comes to light.