What did you use for Basarabi or Dacian again? Late Gáva-North Thracian is Mezocsat-Gáva and Vekerzug E-V13 from Chotin, Basarabi is likely to appraoch the two regular Himerans. What else do we have? The Eastern La Tene outlier and the Scy197 from Moldova looks intermediate between Psenichevo and Basarabi.
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To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case
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PaleoRevenge
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Bassarabi:
Code:
MKD_Skopje_Anc_I10379,0.129758,0.149283,0.021873,-0.027132,0.027082,-0.012829,0.005875,0.001846,0.002659,0.034989,-0.001461,0.01169,-0.007284,-0.003716,-0.019137,0.008353,0.029206,-0.002154,0.005656,0.001876,-0.018093,0.002349,-0.002095,0.008435,-0.004311
HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast_I18832_E-V13,0.125205,0.148267,0.018102,-0.028101,0.029236,-0.016176,0.00141,-0.003231,0.008999,0.03262,0.005846,0.005095,-0.017691,-0.007844,-0.027551,0.003978,0.027772,0.005448,0.008547,-0.004877,-0.015473,0.004204,0.003328,0.006025,-0.00012
UKR_Cimmerian_o_MJ12,0.135449,0.138112,0.015462,-0.012274,0.020927,-0.008088,0.00235,-0.007384,-0.006545,0.034625,0.000487,0.008542,-0.008325,-0.008533,-0.014522,0.005171,0.025946,-0.000127,0.011439,0.005878,-0.019091,0.007666,0.004067,0.011929,-0.000239Dacian:
Code:
ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_I10946_E-V13,0.125205,0.147252,0.02753,-0.000646,0.03693,-0.006414,-0.005405,-0.010153,0.006749,0.03262,0.009419,0.008093,-0.015015,0.006193,-0.015336,-0.016309,-0.005215,-0.002027,0.011564,-0.007879,-0.008485,0.013231,0.00037,-0.002169,0.009101
ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_I10950_E-V13,0.129758,0.14217 4,0.028661,-0.007429,0.039084,-0.008088,0.005875,0.005077,0.005318,0.031345,0.000 487,0.009142,-0.00996,0.004679,-0.019679,-0.004508,0.01682,-0.00076,0.011061,0.002376,-0.008735,0.006554,-0.001109,-0.003253,-0.000958
HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18528_E_V13,0.12862,0.145221,0.038089,-0.000323,0.037853,-0.002789,0.002585,0.004846,0.011044,0.016948,0.001137,0.003747,-0.01115,0.004129,-0.003936,-0.003447,0.007693,-0.004941,0.000251,0.006503,-0.006988,0.004575,-0.007395,-0.006989,-0.00958
SVK_IA_Vekerzug_I14465_E_V13,0.135449,0.149283,0.035826,-0.007429,0.04924,-0.011156,-0.003995,0.008077,0.010431,0.019499,-0.00682,0.009142,-0.007582,0.006881,-0.010993,-0.008353,0.01356,0.003674,0.006285,0.01013,-0.008735,0.010263,0.003328,-0.022292,-0.002634The sample from Chotin is pretty close to Mezocsat-Gava from the Western fringe. Especially if looking at his WHG, he is closer to Mezocsat-Gava than to the Himeran.
I think the Himerans represent Basarabi-Dacians along the Danube, but the tribes to the North will be closer to Chotin and going in the direction of Mezocsat-Gáva.
Such a pity we didn't get a dozen or so Mezocsat-Gava males.
I think the Himerans represent Basarabi-Dacians along the Danube, but the tribes to the North will be closer to Chotin and going in the direction of Mezocsat-Gáva.
Such a pity we didn't get a dozen or so Mezocsat-Gava males.
By the Danube do you mean Wallachia or literally by the Danube
PaleoRevenge
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Chotin by his location alone is fringe Dacian, that is why I believe the more consistent profile of Dacians are the Himeras. Vekerzug is frontier Dacian who mingled with Carpathian Celts. Dacian habitat extended even into the Balts/Slavic world, I don't see these profiles as the standard Dacian, but Dacian in ethnic sense. Their profiles shoould be altered by having admixture from WHG heavy populations of the Celtic-Baltoid world. The Daco-Thracian cline though remains intact.
I think Riverman meant Wallacia. Bassarabi extended into Wallacia during their peak in early Iron Age, but by late Iron Age, they lost their northern territories to the Dacians. Bassarabi dervided population by Roman period would be reduced to the Daco-Mysians, inhabiting mainly the Roman provinces of Moesia.
The Danubian paper is pretty important because what I have identified as the Bassarabi profile will become more apparent once the BAM files are released. See my reasoning here:
To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case
Besides some good data like the TMRCA graph above, the paper is quite bad. If I were to write something like that I would at least commit to taking a position. Making a claim but at the same time putting insurance policies in every statement, they have no confidence in their work. E-V13 could...
www.eupedia.com
The real meat will be the Gomolava samples and the Bronze Age Transalvania samples, the E-V13 profiles that will be found there are the grandparents of the current E-V13 samples being discussed and debated presently.
Brumzi said that bassarbi won't have ev13 and dacians and thracians aren't connected
PaleoRevenge
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He has been wrong many times now. You bring up that spiteful degenerate as if his approval is needed. What does a Kelmuti tribesman know? I predicted R-PF763 homeland in southern Albania Bronze Age within weeks of learning G25 calc. go back to anthrogenica and read some threads. I've provided good insight, he and his team only oppose, gaslight, close threads down.
More interesting questions to ask are; why is brumi such a E-V13 cuck, whats up with the J2b-L283 fetish. Also why was okeefe taking such good care of him, did the Enligh gentleman "groom" him?
PaleoRevenge
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A phantom fan base made of sock accounts. Strabio-brumi/auditorium, excine, are the same person. He likely had other sock accounts. His favorite shtick, was to post a mediocre question through an alter ego account and answer his own question that he himself posted through his main account. Then his friends like olive oil and other sock accounts would log in to upvote him. That was WWE tier script play. Allegedly anthrogenica was a serious forum, where big brains met. The big brains over there could not detect obvious/sloppy fraud. Or the forum was not really serious, it did after all rott from within and close down.
Thanks for bringing a favorite subject up, I enjoyed dragging his slain corpse in front his suboridnate clan members/fan-girls that lurke and often spam here.
Thanks for bringing a favorite subject up, I enjoyed dragging his slain corpse in front his suboridnate clan members/fan-girls that lurke and often spam here.
It seems you have a long history with him
PaleoRevenge
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I'm not alone, I just don't forgive once I understand who and what. I know what he is, and what he deserves, and that's it.
I'm being brash to entice his subordinate e-clan members to come to their chief's rescue, but no beta wants the smoke, they've seen me trash their chief and have abandoned their hasan-gej bajraktar.
I'm being brash to entice his subordinate e-clan members to come to their chief's rescue, but no beta wants the smoke, they've seen me trash their chief and have abandoned their hasan-gej bajraktar.
Johane Derite
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Corrigendum is his handle over at the Ev13 thread in genarchivist
I once wrote that we can discuss all kind of untested cultures, even Gáva, but we can't take two groups out of the equation:
Belegis II-Gáva and Basarabi.
Because if we take those two out of the equation, especially Basarabi, we get into a world of troubles to explain how E-V13 spread the way it did.
Basarabi to have no E-V13 would be truly huge and very hard to explain. If they sample a dozen or so males from Basarabi and there would be no E-V13 (unless they are all clearly from just one family or the like) I would be truly "surprised".
Because in the EIA, Basarabi seems to be the main core group of E-V13 in Europe, going by its background, expansions, relationships and while comparing it with the E-V13 modern phylogeny and distribution. Its position which allowed it to influence e.g. the whole Danubian world, deep into Eastern Hallstatt, makes it an ideal vector for the EIA expansions of E-V13.
Belegis II-Gáva and Basarabi.
Because if we take those two out of the equation, especially Basarabi, we get into a world of troubles to explain how E-V13 spread the way it did.
Basarabi to have no E-V13 would be truly huge and very hard to explain. If they sample a dozen or so males from Basarabi and there would be no E-V13 (unless they are all clearly from just one family or the like) I would be truly "surprised".
Because in the EIA, Basarabi seems to be the main core group of E-V13 in Europe, going by its background, expansions, relationships and while comparing it with the E-V13 modern phylogeny and distribution. Its position which allowed it to influence e.g. the whole Danubian world, deep into Eastern Hallstatt, makes it an ideal vector for the EIA expansions of E-V13.
TetaEglantina
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The main reason for v13 spreading will be urnfield, that is why it even reached north italy and france. Basarabs have no history in that region
But Basarabi spread along the Danube as far as Bavaria and Austria, through Eastern Hallstatt. We have evidence for Basarabi migrants (warriors, artisans, brides and their entourage etc.) in Frög in particular.
I think there won't be one big spread of E-V13 to the West, but multiple ones.
One of the more important seems to have been Vekerzug, La Tene backflow and the Dacians, with Daco-Roman and Dacian tribal resettlements.
E.g. the people of Birdoswald, the Dacian soldiers stationed there, were likely E-V13 dominated and their descendants could account for some E-V13 branches in Britain:
The People of Birdoswald
Learn about the people who lived and worked Birdoswald Roman Fort on Hadrian's Wall.
www.english-heritage.org.uk
A lot of the E-V13 in Italy has a La Tene to very Early Roman period TMRCA, together with Britain, and oftentimes overlapping with the East as well (like with samples from Hungary, Slovakia, Romania etc.).
So it really looks that a significant portion of the Italian E-V13 is of Celtic-Dacian origin. This being best proven by the huge Sardinian sample. Just go through the Sardinian samples (all from the huge scientific paper on Sardinia) and their TMRCA's - most are likely to come from Genua, in Liguria, the Genuese region, E-V13 being in a fairly high frequency. A notable example for North Western Italians being Garibaldi.
Unfortunately the Genuese aren't well tested, but the Sardinians are, just check E-Z5018 and E-Z5017 Sardinian samples on FTDNA:
Welcome to FamilyTreeDNA Discover
Discover more about your paternal ancestry and join in on the research!
Particularly interesting in this respect is e.g. E-Z21291, with the new sample from Fonyod.
We therefore have direct evidence of a Hungarian Late Roman/Iron Age sample, from which an English and Sardinian branch split off. Other subbranches of E-Z21291 are from Czechia, Greece and Russia.
The Sardinians split at 250 BC, so we can assume they were in Italy at least 300 BC.
The logical conclusion is La Tene backflow, a spread with Celts. The Hungarian being at the root of E-Z21291, around 700-600 BC. This is ideal for Vekerzug. Vekerzug being the successor of Mezocsat-Gáva, especially the Eastern, cremating Sanislau group.
Therefore this is a perfect example of:
Vekerzug-Sanislau -> Late Hallstatt-La Tene Celts, spread into Italy before 300 BC.
TetaEglantina
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But Basarabi spread along the Danube as far as Bavaria and Austria, through Eastern Hallstatt. We have evidence for Basarabi migrants (warriors, artisans, brides and their entourage etc.) in Frög in particular.
I think there won't be one big spread of E-V13 to the West, but multiple ones.
One of the more important seems to have been Vekerzug, La Tene backflow and the Dacians, with Daco-Roman and Dacian tribal resettlements.
E.g. the people of Birdoswald, the Dacian soldiers stationed there, were likely E-V13 dominated and their descendants could account for some E-V13 branches in Britain:
The People of Birdoswald
Learn about the people who lived and worked Birdoswald Roman Fort on Hadrian's Wall.www.english-heritage.org.uk
A lot of the E-V13 in Italy has a La Tene to very Early Roman period TMRCA, together with Britain, and oftentimes overlapping with the East as well (like with samples from Hungary, Slovakia, Romania etc.).
So it really looks that a significant portion of the Italian E-V13 is of Celtic-Dacian origin. This being best proven by the huge Sardinian sample. Just go through the Sardinian samples (all from the huge scientific paper on Sardinia) and their TMRCA's - most are likely to come from Genua, in Liguria, the Genuese region, E-V13 being in a fairly high frequency. A notable example for North Western Italians being Garibaldi.
Unfortunately the Genuese aren't well tested, but the Sardinians are, just check E-Z5018 and E-Z5017 Sardinian samples on FTDNA:
Welcome to FamilyTreeDNA Discover
Discover more about your paternal ancestry and join in on the research!discover.familytreedna.com
Particularly interesting in this respect is e.g. E-Z21291, with the new sample from Fonyod.
We therefore have direct evidence of a Hungarian Late Roman/Iron Age sample, from which an English and Sardinian branch split off. Other subbranches of E-Z21291 are from Czechia, Greece and Russia.
The Sardinians split at 250 BC, so we can assume they were in Italy at least 300 BC.
The logical conclusion is La Tene backflow, a spread with Celts. The Hungarian being at the root of E-Z21291, around 700-600 BC. This is ideal for Vekerzug. Vekerzug being the successor of Mezocsat-Gáva, especially the Eastern, cremating Sanislau group.
Therefore this is a perfect example of:
Vekerzug-Sanislau -> Late Hallstatt-La Tene Celts, spread into Italy before 300 BC.
Sure but my point is v13 spread with Urnfield speakers first, then La Tene speakers, then Roman speakers. It wasn't a massive spread of Basarab speakers, these remained in the east
They moved up to Austria-Bavaria, that's a proven case.
For the potters and pottery:
On Frög are various papers on the Basaraboid trends in the group, which by far exceed what to expect from trade alone. They even had Thracian-style widow burials (burnt) with Basarabi elements and seem to have regularly intermarried. Interestingly, all the evidence points to Basarabi individuals regularly moving West, but rarely others moving East. Therefore it was a rather one sided gene flow from Basarabi into the Eastern Hallstatt sphere (especially Frög and Kalenderberg group).
In the Frög group we have elite warriors first and brides with their entourage and specialised artisans later. Basarabi was instrumental in the formation of the Hallstatt culture and remained influence in the Eastern Hallstatt sphere throughout their existence.
Vekerzug and Ferigile were two groups with Late Gáva and Basarabi traditions (Gáva in Vekerzug, Basarabi in Ferigile dominant) - when they came under Scythian influence and the Scythians destroyed the Eastern Hallstatt-Basarabi balance.
The Southern Ferigile group (on Basarabi base) already develops into a historically known people, the Triballi:
Therefore we got two to three ifs:
- Basarabi and not more Northern/Eastern groups hosted major E-V13 branches
- Ferigile-Triballi being the continuation of Basarabis Southern groups
- If that's the case, the Triballi too would have had these E-V13 branches even before more Northern Dacian groups moved South in the Roman era
The good thing about such a proposal would be, that it would neatly explain why we find for many Western branches Bulgarian counterparts, if they started not just with Dacian, but with the spread of Triballi people into Bulgaria.
Triballi - Wikipedia
Following the association of Ferigile with the Triballi, done by many Balkan authors, they were clearly a Daco-Thracian people and highly likely to have been dominated by E-V13, just like their Northern and South Eastern neighbours.
PaleoRevenge
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Auditorium, curriculum, bacterium, Sodom and Gomorrium. With the impending samples it will be set in stone, E-V13 expands out of western Romania, the womb of E-V13 in IE context. Will brumi the pride of malsorioum get a haplogroup change surgery? Society has made so much progress and amazing strides, can a cuck unhappy with his E-V13 haplogroup get transhaplo surgery to J2b? I think the brave malsorries of rrenjet can break a new ceiling in the frontiers of progress and lgbt rights.
And how can you call yourself rrenjet when you have a major problem with the main roots of Albanians?
TetaEglantina
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I don't understand what the big deal about illyrians is anyway, they left very little behind in terms of scripts or monuments and were easily conquered by the Romans. Maybe not as easily the west or Brits but much easier than Dacians or the Epirotes for example. And then most illyrians were completely finished by the Slavs, Bosnia has like 3% j2b l283 left - I don't see what is so impressive about that
PaleoRevenge
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Rrenjets representative in these foras engages in open defamation against E-V13. That's the issue, not that Illyrians lost. Illyrians had a sea empire since the Bronze Age, they had good control, big chunks of Italy, even a presence in Mycenea. Where is Albanian influence in Italic languages, where is the memory of maritime trade and expansion, did we forget how to say fish/peshk?
They are begging to be put down like rabid dogs. Trashing one own ancestors for the sake a mythical one, they deserve no respect.
They are begging to be put down like rabid dogs. Trashing one own ancestors for the sake a mythical one, they deserve no respect.
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