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To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

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I think that Brumi got into the AI-stuff (crypto-bro fashion), and is using ChatGPT to clone bot accounts to support his theories lol.
Based on his abyssal G25 models, I don't think he can even operate a basic office coffee machine. He only has a forked tongue and carries a big chip on his little shoulders. I'm sure he is a midget.
 
Do you think this is the only yDna that Illyrians have ?

I will search the forums to see if you have insulted me before..............if you have this will be our last conversation
 
Do you think this is the only yDna that Illyrians have ?

I will search the forums to see if you have insulted me before..............if you have this will be our last conversation
That certain type of people i mentioned before are so obsessed with their theories that they'll go crazy if anyone dares even to question anything about them.
 
Do you think this is the only yDna that Illyrians have ?

I will search the forums to see if you have insulted me before..............if you have this will be our last conversation

All we find in Dalmatia is j2b l283, can you show otherwise?

You must be speaking to someone else, I don't understand how saying illyrians are j2b l283 is an insult to you
 
I think that Brumi got into the AI-stuff (crypto-bro fashion), and is using ChatGPT to clone bot accounts to support his theories lol.
What theory are you implying?
EV-13 being all over the Balkans is a very complicated discussion that can;t be advanced by 6 skeletons.
If Dacians = EV-13 = Proto-Albanians, then we can say easily that the main Survivors of 3000 years of Paleo Balkans history are the proto-Albanians, today scattered all over the Balkans.
 
Do you think this is the only yDna that Illyrians have ?

I will search the forums to see if you have insulted me before..............if you have this will be our last conversation

Did you direct to me?

Because, just why we don't agree that Albanians are 100% Illyrians, we will equally not agree with you that Albanians are 0% Illyrians.

Maybe, you should look on yourself first, and stop being a snowflake and argue in a more balanced manner, not just for the sake of opposing.
 
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What theory are you implying?
EV-13 being all over the Balkans is a very complicated discussion that can be advanced by 6 skeletons.
If Dacians = EV-13 = Proto-Albanians, then we can say easily that the main Survivors of 3000 years of Paleo Balkans history are the proto-Albanians, today scattered all over the Balkans.

I never said Dacians are Proto-Albanians, my theory is that E-V13 spread with Eastern Urnfielders primarily, or a buffer zone between Balkan-Carpathian Complex. Proto-Albanians/Pre-Proto-Albanians (whatever pre/pro you put depending how deep in time you go) could have been an Early Bronze Age Yamnaya residing in Balkans which is Matzinger's opinion, but i think he is basing this assumption solely based on R1b-Z2103/R1b-PF7563 shared with Greeks/Armenians, they still don't have any real linguistic scientific theory to link Albanian-Greek-Armenian in a single branch. They are just taking the most plausible scenario way of thinking.
 
I never said Proto-Dacians are Albanians, my theory is that E-V13 spread with Eastern Urnfielders primarily, or a buffer zone between Balkan-Carpathian Complex.
And what is Brumi theory?
What's Riverman theory?
What's PaleoSomething theory?

Who can make a summary of these theories, in a short version, chatGPT format, if possible/
Thanks
 
All we find in Dalmatia is j2b l283, can you show otherwise?

You must be speaking to someone else, I don't understand how saying illyrians are j2b l283 is an insult to you
"Patterson et al. 2022 study examined 18 samples from the Middle Bronze Age up to Early Iron Age Croatia, which was part of Illyria. Out of the nine Y-DNA samples retrieved, which coincide with the historical territory where Illyrians lived (including tested Iapydes and Liburni sites), almost all belonged to the patrilineal line J2b2a1-L283 (>J-PH1602 > J-Y86930 and >J-Z1297 subclades) with the exception of one R1b-L2.
"In northern Albania, IA Çinamak, half of them men carried J-L283 (> J-Z622, J-Y21878) and the other half R-M269 (R-CTS1450, R-PF7563). The oldest sample in Çinamak dates to the first era of post-Yamnaya movements (EBA) and carries R-M269.[43] "
 
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Don't take the following as an insult, it's an honest question.

Ι don't understand what the big deal with E-V13 is. It's an irrelevant haplo in the grand scheme of things, outside of Greece and the Balkans, when it comes to historical events.

It's either R1b/R1a or Js that seem to signify cultural and linguistic shifts.
 
Don't take the following as an insult, it's an honest question.

Ι don't understand what the big deal with E-V13 is. It's an irrelevant haplo in the grand scheme of things, outside of Greece and the Balkans, when it comes to historical events.

It's either R1b/R1a or Js that seem to signify cultural and linguistic shifts.

First off, your own haplogroup is never unimportant, because its your lineage which can be traced thousands of years.

Second, E-V13 was at one point much bigger than all of the Baltoslavic lineages taken together. So it was very important and widespread, contributed to major emerging Bronze Age (Urnfield) and Iron Age (Hallstatt) cultures directly and indirectly, representing some of the largest people in ancient history (Daco-Thracians).

E-V13 is still one of the major European haplogroups and its main branches E-Z5018 and E-Z5017 being among the top haplogroups in Europe with an ancestor in that time frame.

The latter being a fact because of the rapid growth it experienced in the LBA to the EIA. And such a rapid growth and founder event needs to be explained.

Similar founder and growth events for other haplogroups were clear from the onset, like
- R-Z2103 = Yamnaya
- R-U106 + I-M253 = Germanic
- R-Z282 = Corded Ware and Balto-Slavic
- J-L283 = Illyrian
- R-L51 = Bell Beakers, Tumulus culture and Celts
- R-Z93 = Indo-Iranians: Iranians, Scytho-Sarmatians, Indo-Aryans
- N-P43 = Uralic, Finno-Ugric
etc.

You see, all of the major haplogroups, some of which were or are much smaller than E-V13, have their ethnocultural wave origin. They all can be traced back to a specific region and ethnicity, by and large. And for all of them, at least one of the factors - region, culture, ethnicity, being known.

The big thing about E-V13 is exactly that: It is a big player, it was and still is important for the male demographic base in West Eurasians, but its ultimate origin and spread being still unexplained and unknown to larger degree than that of the other main haplogroups.

Once we find the Bronze origin and expansion of E-V13, presumably in Channelled Ware - or another group contributing to Stamped Pottery as the less likely option, much of the debate will be over and there won't be as much need to discuss known things.

Like who debates whether or not I-M253 was largely spread by Germanics? Now its just about when and where exactly, which tribe etc. But that the vast majority of modern I-M253 being carried and spread out by Germanics is now beyond doubt.

As long as we don't have glass clear and irrefutable evidence for the E-V13 expansion, the debate will go on.

We already have clear and irrefutable evidence for E-V13 being Daco-Thracian, but some people refuse to accept it. And the question of how exactly E-V13 became the main lineage of the Daco-Thracians is still unresolved, we just have better and worse theories, we need more data to be sure.

In this respect E-V13 is similar to I-M253 and J-L283, because we know with which people the latter spread, but not how exactly it got to dominate in the post-steppe environment.
 
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Don't take the following as an insult, it's an honest question.

Ι don't understand what the big deal with E-V13 is. It's an irrelevant haplo in the grand scheme of things, outside of Greece and the Balkans, when it comes to historical events.

It's either R1b/R1a or Js that seem to signify cultural and linguistic shifts.

Well, on prehistoric and grand-scheme i do believe E-M35 was way more important than R1 and J combined. Mesolithic Egyptians and Natufians were way ahead of their time.

But, concerning E-V13 which is indeed a different story inside the European scheme it cannot be compared with R1b/a and J1 in terms of influence. Absolutely agree.

J2a seems to have lost their language, just like J1 were their original speech should have resembled sort of Daghestani and North-East Caucasian ones, but J1 after adopting Semitic were major players.

Ofcourse, we have opened this thread to discuss not only E-V13, but all Balkan Y-DNA's.
 
"Patterson et al. 2022 study examined 18 samples from the Middle Bronze Age up to Early Iron Age Croatia, which was part of Illyria. Out of the nine Y-DNA samples retrieved, which coincide with the historical territory where Illyrians lived (including tested Iapydes and Liburni sites), almost all belonged to the patrilineal line J2b2a1-L283 (>J-PH1602 > J-Y86930 and >J-Z1297 subclades) with the exception of one R1b-L2.
"In northern Albania, IA Çinamak, half of them men carried J-L283 (> J-Z622, J-Y21878) and the other half R-M269 (R-CTS1450, R-PF7563). The oldest sample in Çinamak dates to the first era of post-Yamnaya movements (EBA) and carries R-M269.[43] "

You just proved my point, maybe R-L2 also was illyrian but they were 95% j2b l283. What has Cinamak got to do with Dalmatia?
 
Don't take the following as an insult, it's an honest question.

Ι don't understand what the big deal with E-V13 is. It's an irrelevant haplo in the grand scheme of things, outside of Greece and the Balkans, when it comes to historical events.

It's either R1b/R1a or Js that seem to signify cultural and linguistic shifts.

It depends on who these V13 people were, if they were strong like ancient Macedonians, durable like Dacians etc. I don't see how J is more important than V13, not in Europe anyway except for Mycenae. Most J people in Europe came from Anatolia and middle east while V13 was already in Europe
 
E-V13 is not associated with any language or cultural shift like Js or Rs, it's mostly a local Balkan haplo of little importance outside the scope of early Roman and Medieval Byzantine history, Thracians, Dacians, etc, were a loose "confederation" of people who got rolled over by the Iranics, the Greeks, the Romans in that order, leaving almost nothing behind other than some golden figurines and some coins here and there.
 
E-V13 is not associated with any language or cultural shift like Js or Rs, it's mostly a local Balkan haplo of little importance outside the scope of early Roman and Medieval Byzantine history, Thracians, Dacians, etc, were a loose "confederation" of people who got rolled over by the Iranics, the Greeks, the Romans in that order, leaving almost nothing behind other than some golden figurines and some coins here and there.

I mean the Dacians or Thracians were anything but a loose confederation and you must be mixing up J with V13 again because it was the Ancient Greeks that were rolled over by Iranics, J on J crime there.

The most important European history always was in Balkans and Italy/Greece - Roman Empire, Byzantine, Ancient Macedonians, Mycenae etc

Western Europe was completely crushed by the Romans while most Balkan tribes put up a stronger fight, go study the wars.
 
I mean the Dacians or Thracians were anything but a loose confederation and you must be mixing up J with V13 again because it was the Ancient Greeks that were rolled over by Iranics, J on J crime there.

The most important European history always was in Balkans and Italy/Greece - Roman Empire, Byzantine, Ancient Macedonians, Mycenae etc

Western Europe was completely crushed by the Romans while most Balkan tribes put up a stronger fight, go study the wars.

Greeks and Iranics were cousins, family in-fighting, no big deal, by Seleucid times we had made amends.

What do Western Romans have to do with E-V13? Or Greco-Anatolian Byzantines? News to me. Unless you are referring to the conquered and Romanised/Byzantified masses they commanded.

Lastly, I think you, guys, should stop with the Macedonian chest-thumping, if you don't mind me saying so, and how your portray them as different to Greeks because you make them look like the biggest cucks, you know, them being pivotal in the spread of the Attic/Ionic in the furthest reaches of the world instead of their own supposed language.

That would be the equivalent of Anglos spreading Spanish throughout their empire in the 18th-19th cent.
 
E-V13 is not associated with any language or cultural shift like Js or Rs, it's mostly a local Balkan haplo of little importance outside the scope of early Roman and Medieval Byzantine history, Thracians, Dacians, etc, were a loose "confederation" of people who got rolled over by the Iranics, the Greeks, the Romans in that order, leaving almost nothing behind other than some golden figurines and some coins here and there.
No haplogroup could expand like that by simlpy being "local Balkan". I say it directly, that's BS.
It is not about E-V13 or any other haplogroup, but such patterns don't emerge by "local Balkan lineages". This comment just proves that you don't know and understand the E-V13 phylogeny and branching events, or that of any other haplogroup.

Because the principles behind a haplogroup expansion are always the same. If there is no migration-ethnic event, there is no spread in the times of tribes and folks. There can be migration into a state, but even then its initially ethnic-associated and related to a specific reproductive and socio-cultural behaviour, kind of a package.

In the Bronze and Early Iron Age however, people spread mostly by conquest and claiming ressources, including females from the patrilinear perspective. And there is no way, absolutely no way, that the E-V13 growth could have happened without radical, violent, significant expansion of a people in the MBA to EIA. That is simply impossible. The enormous peak of growth in the LBA-EIA transition speaks for itself.

And since we know, with certainty, that E-V13 pops up where Daco-Thracians lived, more frequently than anywhere else, and that there were replacement events and shifts in the Balkans before that, we know there was an ethnic-demic diffusion of E-V13, with the vector being Daco-Thracian ethnicities.

The Daco-Thracian cultural package was astonishingly stable over time, if you think about e.g. cremation burials of their kind and pottery with channels and knobs appearing right from the start in the MBA up to the last moment of their existence (latest handmade pottery from groups associated with the Carpi and the Dacian fruit bowls before).

That spans a regional Carpatho-Balkan tradition of 2.000 years, which only disappeared in the migration period.
 
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Greeks and Iranics were cousins, family in-fighting, no big deal, by Seleucid times we had made amends.

What do Western Romans have to do with E-V13? Or Greco-Anatolian Byzantines? News to me. Unless you are referring to the conquered and Romanised/Byzantified masses they commanded.

Lastly, I think you, guys, should stop with the Macedonian chest-thumping, if you don't mind me saying so, and how your portray them as different to Greeks because you make them look like the biggest cucks, you know, them being pivotal in the spread of the Attic/Ionic in the furthest reaches of the world instead of their own supposed language.

That would be the equivalent of Anglos spreading Spanish throughout their empire in the 18th-19th cent.

Up to 14th century Balkans and south Europe was just as prosperous as western europe, it was because of the constant wars and suppression that it was left way behind. There was never a day of peace in the Balkans.

But now it looks like things are changing again with many western European countries declining and having issues with their own citizens while Balkan countries have less crime, more family oriented culture etc. Also will always have the better weather haha, we welcome all of Europe to our nice beaches.
 
Greeks and Iranics were cousins, family in-fighting, no big deal, by Seleucid times we had made amends.

What do Western Romans have to do with E-V13? Or Greco-Anatolian Byzantines? News to me. Unless you are referring to the conquered and Romanised/Byzantified masses they commanded.

Lastly, I think you, guys, should stop with the Macedonian chest-thumping, if you don't mind me saying so, and how your portray them as different to Greeks because you make them look like the biggest cucks, you know, them being pivotal in the spread of the Attic/Ionic in the furthest reaches of the world instead of their own supposed language.

That would be the equivalent of Anglos spreading Spanish throughout their empire in the 18th-19th cent.

Maybe you'll find E-V13 among Macedonians, that E-V13 in Idomenae was not out of nowhere.

Also, Dacians were never conquered by Greeks, on their time, they were the only kingdom to put a fight and challenge to Rome especially at their strongest point of empire, long time after Greek states were completely demolished by Roman military.
 
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