To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

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To me it looks like the East Pannonian, EIA Serbia and Proto-Geometric sites in LBA/EIA Greece is where E-V13 appears.

That's what i predict.
 
Hawk said:
To me it looks like the East Pannonian, EIA Serbia and Proto-Geometric sites in LBA/EIA Greece is where E-V13 appears.

That's what i predict.
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I wouldn't bet on Proto-Geometric though. East Pannonian and EIA Serbia has a better chance.
 
Hawk said:
That's what the study is hinting though.
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Honestly I would be pleasantly surprised, but the current Greek samples don't support a spread with Proto-Geometric, which culture formed the base of much of the Greeks.
 
Riverman said:
Honestly I would be pleasantly surprised, but the current Greek samples don't support a spread with Proto-Geometric, which culture formed the base of much of the Greeks.
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Proto geometric appeared in Greek dark ages after the sea people's/urnfield/dorian's and trojans had attacked mycenaeans

Mycenaeans = 0% v13
Greek dark ages = let's see
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
Proto geometric appeared in Greek dark ages after the sea people's/urnfield/dorian's and trojans had attacked mycenaeans

Mycenaeans = 0% v13
Greek dark ages = let's see
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I agree, let's see. Though, i wouldn't say Trojans or whoever they were Wilusans attacked Mycenae, we don't really know what happened in Late Bronze Age, but we know things got ugly for everyone.

Here is a citation for a Geometric burial in Eretria

The grown-up children are generally inhumated in pits withor without offerings, in the burial zones situated at a distancefrom the settlement. Three categories of finds deposited inthese graves can be distinguished according to the age at death(based on anthropological criteria):

vases that are too big to have been used by children, therefore interpreted as offerings;– small drinking vases like skyphoi, cups and baby’s bottles,whose dimensions are adapted to the age of the child andwhich were certainly used whilst the child was alive;– miniature vases of generally poor quality or token cut indecorated vases, which can be interpreted as toys.Besides small open vases (essentially cups), jewellery wasdeposited in children graves. The dimensions of these ornaments show that they were made for adults, who depositedthem in the tomb as an offering.
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Adults who were full members of the community were buried in pits or on funerary pyres and their bones were placed in urns. Both types of burials are always located at a distance from the settlement. The cremation of adults involves large vases,weapons (swords, spear-heads) and jewellery in precious metals (gold, electrum, silver). Kraters were common among the funerary offerings, unlike in the tombs of Lefkandi and Pithekoussai.

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Of course we wonder how did they transition and when. And were they just local Mycenaen descendands or they were Mycenaeans mostly with a new incoming group from somewhere between Greece and Carpathian Mountains.

So, let's see.
 
I think they were not just local Mycenaeans, but also Northern Greek tribals (related to Macedonians and Epirotes) which being commonly referred to as Dorians.
It looks to me if the Channelled Ware people pushed them, but in Greece the took a stance and while being heavily influenced culturally, pushed the Northern ethnic tribals (i.e. E-V13 dominated groups) back.

Now the question remains how much of the E-V13 Channelled Ware warriors they absorbed, but if they did so, we now have a coupe of results, it shouldn't be that much. Therefore even if they did, what are the chances of finding an E-V13 Proto-Geometric Greek, if probably just less than 1 in 10 was E-V13, if at all?

If anything, the even more mixed groups to the North (Macedonians and Epirotes) should have a higher probability, but still rather low in comparison to actual Daco-Thracian people.
 
Riverman said:
I think they were not just local Mycenaeans, but also Northern Greek tribals (related to Macedonians and Epirotes) which being commonly referred to as Dorians.
It looks to me if the Channelled Ware people pushed them, but in Greece the took a stance and while being heavily influenced culturally, pushed the Northern ethnic tribals (i.e. E-V13 dominated groups) back.

Now the question remains how much of the E-V13 Channelled Ware warriors they absorbed, but if they did so, we now have a coupe of results, it shouldn't be that much. Therefore even if they did, what are the chances of finding an E-V13 Proto-Geometric Greek, if probably just less than 1 in 10 was E-V13, if at all?

If anything, the even more mixed groups to the North (Macedonians and Epirotes) should have a higher probability, but still rather low in comparison to actual Daco-Thracian people.
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We already know that ancient Macedonians cremated, whatever happened in the Greek dark ages we know for sure that new groups conquered the Mycenaeans and mixed with them to form the Dorian language/dialect. In fact it is possible all dialects in ancient Greece changed during the dark ages especially among the groups that changed their culture to cremation

 
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Since we got an hint of a major paper incoming very soon, I'd like to throw out my opinion on EBA lineages. R-PF7563 is likely related to Bubanj Hum EBA culture. Armenchori was a derivative of this culture and is a good candidate as to where J2a and G2 were Indo-Europeanized under R-PF7563 rule/leadership. In this culture likely formed the predecessors of the Dorians, who at one point likely asserted themselves and beat off their R-PF7563 overlords. It is on this basis that Greek and Phrygian are linguistically similar. Myceneans could have other IE impulses, one that came from Bulgaria earlier and had a similar fate, drowned and diluted in local lineages. Bubanj-Hum was at one point shattered in MBA from movements from the north, largely because R-Z2103 was moving south(they too expelled by R-L151, E-V13, I2/Encrusted Pottery and R1a expansions into the Hungarian plain). R-PF7563 did surivive as a substratum in the eastern territories, and the R-PF7563 in Bulgaria that are related to the Shala clan are likely east Brygian survivors that were intergrated into R-BY611 and E-V13 tribes. The story of the main Bryges stronghold(south Albanian, Greek Macedonia), is more known and understood and it is not worth going over it again.

J2b-L283 likely starts in northern Serbia in EBA and is pushed toward the Adriatic as the R-Z2103 lose hold of their Hungarian real estate and regroup as Vatin culture. This makes both R-Z2103 and J2b-L283 as part of the same Yamnayan migration into the Balkans, but with R-Z2103 being the boss and getting to settle the more favoable real estate. J2b-L283 lower status ends being their luck as they had closest proximity to Bosnia and Coastal Croatia. When R-Z2103 moved into their turf, they simply migrated on mass into Bosnia and Croatia, where it experienced major growth and cultural changes(Beaker influence genetically and culturally). In their new geographical fortress they were able to resist and beat off all massive changes and migrations that carnaged the central Balkans and Hungary. In the end R-Z2103 went from being the biggest dog in the yard to the biggest loser by late Iron Age, they might not have become as insginicant as R-PF7563 but their downfall was certainly much greater.

E-V13 has been niccely summarized by Riverman. So let's see if the new data will add more insight or change the current viewpoints. I've made some predictions on E-V13 profiles, lets see how they hold up.
 
My prediction -
R-pf7562 - Mycenaean elite (it's almost confirmed already)
R-z2103 - Yamnaya > Proto Armenian, Dorian/Proto Epirote > Proto Albanian
E-v13 - Urnfield, Thracian, Dacian, Dardanian (Trojan), maybe Dorian/Proto Epirote
J-l283 - Cetina > Illyrian
I-cts10228 - Suevi > I-y3120 - Bastarnae, Dacian
 
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TaktikatEMalet said:
My prediction -
R-pf7562 - Mycenaean elite (it's almost confirmed already)
R-z2103 - Yamnaya > Proto Armenian, Dorian/Proto Epirote > Proto Albanian
E-v13 - Urnfield, Thracian, Dacian, Dardanian (Trojan), maybe Dorian/Proto Epirote
J-l283 - Cetina > Illyrian
I-cts10228 - Suevi > I-y3120 - Bastarnae, Dacian
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This Neolithic groups from Eastern Serbia/Western Bulgaria aka Haemus Mountains is where i bet E-V13 rose up.

link.springer.com

Early Balkan Metallurgy: Origins, Evolution and Society, 6200–3700 BC - Journal of World Prehistory

This paper analyses and re-evaluates current explanations and interpretations of the origins, development and societal context of metallurgy in the Balkans (c. 6200–3700 BC). The early metallurgy in this region encompasses the production, distribution and consumption of copper, gold, tin bronze...
link.springer.com link.springer.com
 
TaktikatEMalet said:
My prediction -
R-pf7562 - Mycenaean elite (it's almost confirmed already)
R-z2103 - Yamnaya > Proto Armenian, Dorian/Proto Epirote > Proto Albanian
E-v13 - Urnfield, Thracian, Dacian, Dardanian (Trojan), maybe Dorian/Proto Epirote
J-l283 - Cetina > Illyrian
I-cts10228 - Suevi > I-y3120 - Bastarnae, Dacian
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I-CTS10228 is almost certainly native to eastern Europe and has nothing to do with Suevi or Celts. I-CTS4002 (the parent node) has a BA sample from Romania and I-S19848 (the grandparent node) has a sample from BA Bulgaria, this is before these ethnic groups existed. As for the rest, we will see, all Greek R-PF7562 so far is from the LBA and later and there's no indication that there was a discernible "elite" differentiation.
 
peloponnesian said:
I-CTS10228 is almost certainly native to eastern Europe and has nothing to do with Suevi or Celts. I-CTS4002 (the parent node) has a BA sample from Romania and I-S19848 (the grandparent node) has a sample from BA Bulgaria, this is before these ethnic groups existed. As for the rest, we will see, all Greek R-PF7562 so far is from the LBA and later and there's no indication that there was a discernible "elite" differentiation.
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I-cts10228 was found in bronze age Croatia and has presence in Germany + France with nothing in east Europe. It was likely a Germanic line, especially when you go further upstream it has even more presence in North Europe

R-pf7562 and pf7563 were found multiple times in 1200BC Greece, it is either Mycenaean or Dorian, I reckon Mycenaean is more likely because there should be a link with Armenians, Mycenaeans don't have R-z2103 so it has to be pf7562
 
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Hawk said:
This Neolithic groups from Eastern Serbia/Western Bulgaria aka Haemus Mountains is where i bet E-V13 rose up.

link.springer.com

Early Balkan Metallurgy: Origins, Evolution and Society, 6200–3700 BC - Journal of World Prehistory

This paper analyses and re-evaluates current explanations and interpretations of the origins, development and societal context of metallurgy in the Balkans (c. 6200–3700 BC). The early metallurgy in this region encompasses the production, distribution and consumption of copper, gold, tin bronze...
link.springer.com link.springer.com
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I doubt V13 was populous during that timeline. No E lines in Bulgaria and Serbia during that period -


I think V13 only grew after they established their cremating religion
 
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TaktikatEMalet said:
I doubt V13 was populous during that timeline. No E lines in Bulgaria and Serbia during that period -


I think V13 only grew after they established their cremating religion
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You missed the point, there is no Neolithic samples from Serbia yet, proper ones, there were two E-L618 from Late Neolithic Varna, i do believe that more in West, inbetween Vinca and Karanovo is where main spot of E-L618/E-V13 might be sitting. Let's see. We might get surprised, or like you say, only during LBA we see the rise.
 
mount123 said:
@TaktikatEMalet, trying to sneak in that Slavic uniparental marker in your list, eh? 🧐
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You have to understand that the Slavs came from outside the borders of Roman empire and along with other barbaric tribes were constantly trying to break in. These early Slavs mingled with Goths (i1), Dacians (v13) and Bastarnae (i2-y3120) and spread in multiple directions. This is why we find plenty of these lines in Croatia and Bosnia at varying frequencies. I think the Dacians also picked up i2-y3120 from the Bastarnae when they allied to fight the Romans
 
@TaktikatEMalet That is a closed case and the author of the Southern Arc even shared a paper where the validity of that and another sample have been refuted. TMRCA of Y3120 is 100 BCE everything phylogenetically when it comes to its diversification processes and peak is well alligned with other Slavic uniparentals. CTS10228 of any sort is not there before the medieval era. The sample was not radiocarbondated, the lineage is much younger than the MBA period and has a medieval mtDNA aswell as substantial Slavic DNA. Totally alien to the Cetina-like or later on further north SE Urnfield-like auDNA.

There is an Eastern European/Slavic DNA thread on "Genarchivist" IIRC, you might want to check that one out. You'll find good graphics about Slavic unparentals such as I-Y3120 etc. This is the Balkan BA/IA thread ;)
 
mount123 said:
@TaktikatEMalet That is a closed case and the author of the Southern Arc even shared a paper where the validity of that and another sample have been refuted. TMRCA of Y3120 is 100 BCE everything phylogenetically when it comes to its diversification processes and peak is well alligned with other Slavic uniparentals. CTS10228 of any sort is not there before the medieval era. The sample was not radiocarbondated, the lineage is much younger than the MBA period and has a medieval mtDNA aswell as substantial Slavic DNA. Totally alien to the Cetina-like or later on further north SE Urnfield-like auDNA.

There is an Eastern European/Slavic DNA thread on "Genarchivist" IIRC, you might want to check that one out. You'll find good graphics about Slavic unparentals such as I-Y3120 etc. This is the Balkan BA/IA thread ;)
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I will take yfull's word over yours, no offence. Nobody is claiming i-cts10228 was Cetina, it was clearly more northern and was foreign to the region

Last time I checked Bastarnae and Dacians were around in the iron age which is why I mentioned i-y3120
 
@TaktikatEMalet YFull is a third party service, it is not a lab that radiocarbondates samples 🤦‍♂️😂
 
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