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To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

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Data from the German FTDNA project from 2019:

lukplI found version from 2019 of German sheet, before was from 2018.
More detailed I clades.

BTW current East Pomerania is here as West Prussia. East Pomerania is current Polish West Pomerania:)
Because German West Pomerania from the west of Odra is linked with Mecklemburg.
Bez-nazwy-2.png
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Hawk said:
It came to my attention the E-L618 which was found in Ancient Macedonian site, Isar Marvinci: https://www.theytree.com/sample/f76457589d31a397ba608ca4655b8aeb.html who most likely is E-V13 anyway.
I don't know how theytree got his autosomal, or how accurate it is, but he has some Indian-Central Asian admixture, so he looks like some kind of Seleucid soldier, who has been living there in Central Asia and came back.
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That could be due to bad coverage too - probably.
 
Hawk said:
It came to my attention the E-L618 which was found in Ancient Macedonian site, Isar Marvinci: https://www.theytree.com/sample/f76457589d31a397ba608ca4655b8aeb.html who most likely is E-V13 anyway.
I don't know how theytree got his autosomal, or how accurate it is, but he has some Indian-Central Asian admixture, so he looks like some kind of Seleucid soldier, who has been living there in Central Asia and came back.
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"theytree" is a Chinese state owned third party service and their classifications are known to be most of the time wrong. This particular sample has brutally low coverage so any classification whether uniparental or autosomal is not telling at all.
 
mount123 said:
"theytree" is a Chinese state owned third party service and their classifications are known to be most of the time wrong. This particular sample has brutally low coverage so any classification whether uniparental or autosomal is not telling at all.
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The Y-DNA classification doesn't come from them, it was in the paper and verified. The autosomal is what wonders me. Not saying they are trustworthy, they have put up the tree many yet not resolved final clades which is wrong btw.
 
Being a scavenger, I saw this posted today in propeklo, by someone who seems to have inside info. This is google translated and there seem some obvious error in the translation, but the premise is clear.

They are not official at all, but they are official in that they are real and exist, so I am talking about samples that are also allegedly V13+ SNP confirmed, one from 2000. BC, the second around 1200-1000. BC, both are preceded by Kapitan Andreevo ie Pšeničevo samples.

The older one according to my constructions (which are based on leaked information) is from the Hatvan culture, the younger one is certainly from some Gava or neighboring variant, it can't be anything else. The older one has close to 40% yam genetics, the younger one close to 50%, but almost all other Hatvan-Fuzeshabonj culture samples seem to have 90% farmer genetics with very little steppe. Those samples were named in that study as Hatvan-Fuzešabonj because they are autosomally radically different from the standard Fuzešabonj samples that have much more steppe and are generally R1a-Z280. In the earlier BD, that locality is Hatvani, later it is Fuzešabonj, so it seems that they are domiciled Hatvani.

I also know the ispilon chromosome and the autosomal profile of almost all the other sites from that study, that's how I got to Hatvan by the method of elimination, because of that sample I spent tens of hours analyzing the material at one time, going to the most extreme extreme to identify each sample so that whatever remains must be that older V13. So I know almost everything from that study, ie. series of studies. In any case, Gava has V13+ in late BD.

They have much more steppe than other Hatvans, it is very possible that this more southern Thracian profile came from outside the Balkans. If these samples are placed in an archaeological context, then it is clear that V13 originated from Hatvan, i.e. and northern farming oases.

Therefore, there is a culture in Pannonia that autosomally was distinctly farming even in the Middle BD. There are no officially published findings, but there are 100% still unpublished.

The Thracian language in that case comes from Fuzešabonj-Ottomani R1a-Z280, or from some Z280 with which Hatvans had connections. Because that language has nothing to do with Yaman or Iranian languages, even according to known linguistic parameters. The closest is the Baltic group.

In any case, the occurrence of V13 in Gava or a related culture, I do not see what has to do with any farming element from the Balkans, which would have been found by now if it existed. And even if it existed, then in that case it would have to be somewhere towards Anatolia.

However, the occurrence of V13 in early and late BD in Pannonia simply excludes such a thesis.

But the primary expansion is the secondary one from the Balkans. As long ago Russian archaeologists put forward the thesis that the Thracian language spread in the early Iron Age through the succession of cultures Pšeničevo, Babadag, Basarabi, with which V13 already has direct connections. These cultures replace the previous cultures of the area with only partial assimilation, but generally have no continuity.

So this study contains, in addition to a bunch of samples with high WHG genetics, where there are already published ones, and another surprise: an almost completely autosomal farming population from the middle BD.
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Палеобалкански народи и генетика

Палеобалкански народи и генетика
forum-poreklo-rs.translate.goog

I think he is referring to the Hungarian samples from the leaked youtube slide that showed two E-V13s in Bronze Age Hungary. It looks like he has enough access to the unpublished data to figure out the date of these E-V13 samples, autosomal profile and culture association.

wAGXNcI.png
 
Hawk said:
The Y-DNA classification doesn't come from them, it was in the paper and verified. The autosomal is what wonders me. Not saying they are trustworthy, they have put up the tree many yet not resolved final clades which is wrong btw.
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The authors of the SA used an automatic Y caller tool (most academics do) hence why they get some wrong classifications e. g. "L51" in IA Northeast Albania even though the sample was PF7562. Besides that it's mostly superficial "work" with broader nomenclatures and no indepth analysis.

theytree do not take them from the papers but "analyze" them themeselves (and get them mostly wrong). The sample is a bad coverage sample if it can be surely put at L618 level then there is no doubt that it is most likely V13. Just as it would be far more likely that the auDNA would be Balkan local of some sort.
 
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PaleoRevenge said:
Being a scavenger, I saw this posted today in propeklo, by someone who seems to have inside info. This is google translated and there seem some obvious error in the translation, but the premise is clear.


Палеобалкански народи и генетика

Палеобалкански народи и генетика
forum-poreklo-rs.translate.goog

I think he is referring to the Hungarian samples from the leaked youtube slide that showed two E-V13s in Bronze Age Hungary. It looks like he has enough access to the unpublished data to figure out the date of these E-V13 samples, autosomal profile and culture association.

wAGXNcI.png
Click to expand...

That's Huban btw. i think he is reliable, archaeological data do point that those Iron Age samples have connection with Urnfield-Hallstatt, they are called Earlier Hallstatt in literature and usually they were divided into two groups, Southern = Stamped-Ware living in Orastie Mountains and surroundings and the northern groups Channeled-Ware living in Eastern Hungary/North-Western Romania.
 
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mount123 said:
The authors of the SA used an automatic Y caller tool (most academics do) hence why they get some wrong classifications e. g. "L51" in IA Northeast Albania even though the sample was PF7562. Besides that it's mostly superficial "work" with broader nomenclatures and no indepth analysis.

theytree do not take them from the papers but "analyze" them themeselves (and get them mostly wrong). The sample is a bad coverage sample if it can be surely put at L618 level then there is no doubt that it is most likely V13. Just as it would be far more likely that the auDNA would be Balkan local of some sort.
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Definitely, his autosomal in theytree is Balkan local mostly, but with Central-Asian/Indian-like admixture which caught my attention. But anyway, not something i take as hard evidence.
 
Hawk said:
That's Huban btw. i think he is reliable, archaeological data do point that those Iron Age samples have connection with Urnfield-Hallstatt, they are called Earlier Hallstatt in literature and usually they were divided into two groups, Southern = Stamped-Ware living in Orastie Mountains and surroundings and the northern groups Channeled-Ware living in Eastern Hungary/North-Western Romania.
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That's hilarious, even through google translate it sounded just like him.:ROFLMAO:

Maybe it's a google translator but it looks like he thinks south Thracian profile was formed in northern Hungary. I think he is wrong. 40% Steppe sounds about right for Indo-Europeanized E-V13 profile. In all likelihood, southern Bulgaria had become Mycenean-like, and the E-V13 newcomers absorbed the local women.
 
The worst thing is that these samples are done, but we don't get them, probably never. I saw the video on youtube from the conference years ago. Time goes by and nothing being done with these samples. Its a horrible.

That's Huban btw. i think he is reliable, archaeological data do point that those Iron Age samples have connection with Urnfield-Hallstatt, they are called Earlier Hallstatt in literature and usually they were divided into two groups, Southern = Stamped-Ware living in Orastie Mountains and surroundings and the northern groups Channeled-Ware living in Eastern Hungary/North-Western Romania.
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The crtical thing about Channelled Ware <-> Stamped Ware is that first some elements of Stamped Ware were floating around in the Balkans, Aegean, Anatolia and the steppe before, but there was no such thing as the wares from Babadag, Psenichevo or even less Basarabi.
However, then came Channelled Ware, went through all those areas, put everything upside down and spread a unified Fluted/Channelled Ware horizon.

Just after that happened, at the Lower Danube, in different groups, under additional steppe influence in particular (most noticeable in Babadag), the new forms and fused shapes developed, which however still used channeling and knobs. And then this new canon of pottery styles, which unified Channelled Ware, local styles, Aegeo-Anatolian and Eastern/steppe influences, became the new Stamped Pottery styles.
This new style which grew out of the Channelled Ware horizon in its wider sense did spread North too, but in some areas never as far as Gáva-related original Channelled Ware did. Like e.g. Transcarpathia was very let and never as fully affected. It got affected by Southern influences, but at a time when the classical Stamped Pottery styles were already gone.

Therefore what we rather see is Channelled Ware spreading South, the Southern clans taking up local and new foreign (especially steppe) influences, this creates Stamped Pottery which spreads from the South (Psenichevo) and especially centre (Insula Banului, Babadag, most important developed Basarabi).

It is absolutely clear that Basarabi and related groups must have been Daco-Thracian, but so might have been more Northern groups like Mezocsat locals, Transcarpathian Late Gáva and their successors Eastern Vekerzug (especially Sanislau group) and Kustanovice.
 
PaleoRevenge said:
That's hilarious, even through google translate it sounded just like him.:ROFLMAO:

Maybe it's a google translator but it looks like he thinks south Thracian profile was formed in northern Hungary. I think he is wrong. 40% Steppe sounds about right for Indo-Europeanized E-V13 profile. In all likelihood, southern Bulgaria had become Mycenean-like, and the E-V13 newcomers absorbed the local women.
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We really know so absolutely nothing about the huge Carpatho-Balkan cremation block, which existed for thousands of years, that nobody here can be sure how the people, the carriers of these cultures looked like genetically. Its really, really difficult, because the best we got are short glimpes which tell us that there were steppe intruders and local Neolithic-Copper Age survivors, more so than elsewhere,
But e.g. even how the increased WHG spread to some regions more than to others, and how much where exactly is still a mystery for the most part. Its not just E-V13, we know so little about those groups in general.

And archaeology is fun, but today you have all those anti-migrationists, but even in the past some transitions were never properly understood. One author claimed this, the other the opposite. Even if talking about the origin of Gáva, there were a lot of opinions from deep rooted locals to new invaders - and the direction was as disputed as the continuity as such.
 
40% Yamnaya is about right. Kapitan Andrevo can be modeled as 56% Minoan. So 40% x 0.44 = 17.6% Yamnaya which is what the average South Thracian scores. Huban has access to good info just wrong conclusions.
 
BTW based on the other info he provided such as Fuzesabony being R1a, it looks like R1a cut a wedge on the E-V13s and split them between Hatvan and Otomani.

This process is repeated by other R1a invaders repeatedly during later periods.

Sast9gW.png
 
Füzesabony-Otomani being connected to Mierzanowice just like Nitra and Kostany. Kostany was the steppe in between. The Füzesabony R-Z282 clans came down from Slovakia and conquered Hatvan territory. I don't know what Western Hatvan groups were, but Piliny-Kyjatice is in part derived from Füzesabony, more so than Gáva, and they even had J2a.
I think that E-V13 was at the Tisza and East of the Tisza all along and being rather associated with Nyirseg than Hatvan.

The Füzesabony clans were never able to fully conquer the Transtisza zone, just like the incoming Tumulus culture people. The locals did survive both invasions, but just adopted some customs from the newcomers.

The most obvious sign for this was their cremation rite, Eastern Otomani-Gyulavarsand did cremate, Wietenberg did cremate, Suciu de Sus and Lapus into Gáva did cremate.
On the contrary, their belief system was so strong that they converted the newcomers on the longer run. First the remains of Füzesabony (cremation became dominant in very late Otomani) and then with the Urnfield phenomenon the Tumulus culture people.

On that map the best candidate for E-V13 would have been the Eastern Otomani variant (Gyulavarsand) in orange. The zone is close to the later Gáva core zone and the earlier Nyirseg culture. Wietenberg too is a candidate.
 
Based on the graphs posted, E-V13 are 38.666% steppe and 47.666% steppe. And 1,080 BC and 2,050 BC. Basically same steppe as Illyrians, but will likely have less WHG.
cSCmWKp.png


The single J2b seems to be the 400 BC sample and likely the same J2b-L283 from Hun La Tene that has already been published.
 
@PaleoRevenge

how old is the data in post #1697 .................as K2 is the old T ydna .................K2 was renamed T ydna in 2008
 
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