Two Ancient Iberia DNA Papers with articles.

I know that the thread is somewhat old but the last message is a week old and after having read 300 posts I should like to share my thoughts: I am highly sceptical of the results of the study discussed. before explaining why, I'd like to clarify a point: I have read many messages that make me notice that for some it is a touchy subject either because for some it is a surreptitious attack to the "spanishness" of their fellow countrymen while for other it is racist not to accept the genetic contributions of north africans to the spanish gene pool; I think that if we want to be rational we must put aside these kinds of "interpretations" of the data, which is arguibly beyond the point of discussing the genetics of the Spaniards. Why am I sceptical? because this study ( patterns of genetic differentiation and the footprints of historical migrations in the Iberian Peninsula ) used modern populations as donors and this one ( the genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years ) inferred the ancestry of the general population of the muslims of the Iberian peninsula from the few samples it had and the vast majority of the papers I read lack any precise discussion about both historical migrations and general sociological/anthropological considerations; for example, the first study mentioned acknowledges that the distribution of what appears to be north-west african ancetry is contrary to what could be expected from a historical perspective of the muslim conquest, that is to say that significant north morrocan-like ancetry was found higher in northern regions that the muslims never conquered; it also acknowledges that the invading army was made up of only 30.000 men and the number of civilians from africa and the middle east that migrated there is unknown. A small but significant gene flow due to conquest seems to me unusual but not impossible, but what is harder to explain and is not addressed by the paper is the smoothness of this admixture that reaches the very tip of the peninsula: it seems as if the likely higher admixture levels in the south became diluted and spread up to the north reaching an equilibrium, yet we know that the directions of resettlements was from north to south and not vice versa, and even if it had been the case 600-500 years ( counting from the fall of Granada since the "smoothness" reaches the very tip of the peninsula ) seem too few for such a "levelling" to happen; another possible explanation is that the genetic profile of the people from the north that repopulated the swathes of land retaken from the muslims for whatever reasons became the dominant one ( for example because there was a total population replacement or because they had a higher reproductive success ) in less than a millenium, but it would also mean that north Spain had already a 7/8 percent north african admixture and that in the south it was much higher, and it would become hard to explain such an event, given that it would mean that there was an incredibly high numbers of berbers and that in less than 300 years ( time from the conquest to the beginning of the reconquista ) their admixture became widespread in the general christian population. Now I'd like to introduce the two reasons why I think that the general north african genetic legacy in the general populations ought to have been really small: first because it seems far more easier to achieve political stability by integrating the conquered people into the society of the conquerers ( as the Romans did ) than by having massive military/civilian resettlements that are to replace the local people, and during the expansion of the caliphate it coincided with the spread of Islam amongst the local, so in order to have a large population of muslims it was easier to convert the local to Islam instead of importing thousands of muslims from other areas ( for example, the muslims of the maghreb are and were mainly berbers converted to Islam with little genetic imput from the Arabs ) ; secondly because the sons of a muslim man and a christian woman, in this case a berber/arab and a native iberian, would be brought up by the fathers as muslims and the different religions would act as a semipermeable genetic barrier, which allow genetic flow from the christian population to the muslim one but no vice versa, as we have seen between the turks and both the greeks, balkanites and armenians ( and religion acting as a relativly strong genetic barrier is seen in the history of the Jews ). Now the last objection to the results: it seems that it is rarely taken into accounts the possibility that the genetic affinity between north africans and iberians is due to a gene flow from Spain or more generally from Europe to the Maghreb; in fact we have far more historical accounts of movements of peoples from Europe to the Maghreb than the other way around, and I think it could be argue that the expulsions of moriscos has brought to the Maghreb more spanish admixture than the muslim occupation maghrebi admixture in Spain. Maybe the unsupervised admixture model picked up north Morocco as a donor because this region and Spain share a common genetic similarity due to a gene flow from Spain ( or Europe in general ) to Morocco. It seems also unlikely to me that a small number of new christians, being the persecuted minority they were, even on ethnical grounds ("limpiezza de sangre" and some pogroms), could have left a successive significant genetic legacy in the general iberian population. It seems more reasonable, at least to me, to think that there are some traces of north african admixture in the iberian population, located principally in the south, but due to a very limited gene flow between the two shores that spanned thousands of years, maybe from the neolithic. Maybe I have overlooked some details, but I should be pleased if somebody found my reasoning at least interesting and if somebody pointed out where it might be wrong or weak.
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^^
Very successful

I will give you an example to perceive what is the real Andalusian feeling and the rest of the Spanish.

We see a Christian tower.

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Fundamental, unique indivisible

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This is what he sees and what he wants the traveler or tourist eager to do not know what ... We do not see this even in dreams.

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That's right and that's how I tell it.
 
I believe I said ten years ago on dna forums, and maybe six years ago on 23andme forums and then here that the Mycenaeans and Classical Age Greeks would be extremely close to modern Southern Italians and Sicilians, closer than to some Greeks. Took tons of abuse for it too.
Some? They are closer than any modern population.

The Greeks in that PCA includes Pontians, Peloponnesians, Cretans as well other regions.
So technically Sicilians are closer to Myceanaeans and Ionians (as well as southern Greeks for that matter) than any group of Greeks.
 
.

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Spain, except for the Basques, who are quite different, was apparently pulled south by these later migrations...

It's really hard to interpret the PCA, for the South East Iberia.
It seems the shift occurred somewhere in 8th century when it was occupied by Moors.
 
Here we have these two tartessas samples that are also mine and you can see who they conspire with

TartessianI12171.jpeg


BronzeAgeNorthSpain1440bc.jpeg

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TartessianI12171DeepDivecarolingian790.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDiveCarolingianBcn.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDivecasteldiDecima.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDiveceltiberiannorthspain.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDiveceltiberianNorthspain2300bc.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDiveCogotas.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDiveCooperAgeIberia.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDivegalloromancryptabalbi.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDiveiberian%2Bsttlemencatalonia.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDivelateromaneraemporion550.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDivelatintribeArdea.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDivelatinTribeInland.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDiveMontefrio.jpeg

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TartessianI12171DeepDivePortugalBronze.jpeg

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TartessianI12171DeepDiveportugalmiddlebronze.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDiveRomaneraEmporion.jpeg

TartessianI12171DeepDivevasconestribeBaconia.jpeg

TartessianI12171DVpreindoeuropean.jpeg

TartessianI12171DVsantjulia.jpeg

TartessianI12171modernPopulations.jpeg

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Also noteworthy

The Vía de la Plata has its origin in the commercial routes used by the Tartessos. They ran from north to south through the lands of the Peninsula. Later, the Romans used them as a plinth for their asphalt roads and from here the Vía de la Plata emerged.

Curiously, it coincides with the genetic map.

g-TOkAbne-hgWPM6VXrcozVSIv-e7fDhf03fdCeL4DmlMvvn_w9PhB2ORBXpEKsjxGXxWwpEKO1UjxleatOt3VEFFg_e_64nKjpcFoBvvA


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It is possible that it was still reinforced during the Reconquest with the repopulation of colonists from the crystalline kingdoms, but everything is much earlier, thousands of years before the Romans arrived, we were already Al Andalus remains an anecdote at all levels even genetic due to expulsions. A native knows who he is.
 
A new human presence found in Atapuerca 600,000 years ago

Two stone tools allow filling a gap in the record of human presence in the Burgos mountains from 1.4 million years ago to the present day

"I don't think there is any other site in the world where all the human species that inhabited Europe are: pre-predecessor, antecessor, pre-Neanderthals, Neanderthals and Homo sapiens", highlights Martinón-Torres.
 
What do you guys think it's the Moorish impact in modern Iberians? I would say around 5% to 7%. But that is just a guess.
 
What do you guys think it's the Moorish impact in modern Iberians? I would say around 5% to 7%. But that is just a guess.

5% to 7% of the time of Al Andalus in the autosomal of the Spanish?
 
What do you guys think it's the Moorish impact in modern Iberians? I would say around 5% to 7%. But that is just a guess.

Hi, the problem with that is the question itself - Isn´t the proper question what is the percentage of Berber DNA in Iberia?
And the problem is that we do not have a baseline for it. Berber DNA is certainly older than 6000 years old, just there, next to Iberia, and we do know that even the “fill up” of Iberia (since before 4000BC was pretty empty) might have already had some good amount of berber dna flowing in (hence the Bell beaker with L mtdna). Some early goats in 4th millennium were from North Africa, Lots of Ivory, donkey ,etc.

So, since the Moorish invasion was mostly males …not that big impact of Y-dna , right?- But 5%-7% of berber is correct.

However, say for Portugal, some people mostly in some regions have 0% and some have like 20% (like some people in Alentejo). there are even some small pockets like Alcacer-do-sal (salt place) where people look Portuguese but are very dark, very tanned, because some slaves were brought to the salt harvesting for a short while and were completely absorbed in local population. On the other hand people natural from Algarve (AL-garb) next to Alentejo, most southern part of Portugal, where architecture is full Moorish.... people are almost 80% M269 and low on Y-dna moorish or autosomal. So even small areas can have a very complex genetic history.
 
5% to 7% of the time of Al Andalus in the autosomal of the Spanish?
6% in Castilia la mancha.
10% in Castilia y Leon
10% in Andalusia
13% in Galicia, Asturias and Portugal.
5% in Catolonia or Aragorn
3% in Valencia.

Interestingly the persecution and literraly destruction of the Moriscos was the most harshly done in Valencia so I'm not surprised Valencians got so little. They probably brought many balearic islanders with little NA admixture too to repopulate Morisco areas.

The cline is clearly East vs West, not North vs South.
*this is using Guanches samples.

You guys did a big Reconquistada but for the most of part you just reconquered yourself rofl

Islamic Era Andalusian were 20-25 % North African on average but you just crashed them and whipped them out, mostly by bringing lots of Castilian-Basque mixes and marriying them off to Morisco women.

But don't worry there are still many Zionists to applaud your exploits.
 
6% in Castilia la mancha.
10% in Castilia y Leon
10% in Andalusia
13% in Galicia, Asturias and Portugal.
5% in Catolonia or Aragorn
3% in Valencia.
Interestingly the persecution and literraly destruction of the Moriscos was the most harshly done in Valencia so I'm not surprised Valencians got so little. They probably brought many balearic islanders with little NA admixture too to repopulate Morisco areas.
The cline is clearly East vs West, not North vs South.
*this is using Guanches samples.
You guys did a big Reconquistada but for the most of part you just reconquered yourself rofl
Islamic Era Andalusian were 20-25 % North African on average but you just crashed them and whipped them out, mostly by bringing lots of Castilian-Basque mixes and marriying them off to Morisco women.
But don't worry there are still many Zionists to applaud your exploits.

How come Galicia and Asturias North-West were the greater impacted regions?

PS: Do you have a source for the numbers?
 
6% in Castilia la mancha.
10% in Castilia y Leon
10% in Andalusia
13% in Galicia, Asturias and Portugal.
5% in Catolonia or Aragorn
3% in Valencia.
Interestingly the persecution and literraly destruction of the Moriscos was the most harshly done in Valencia so I'm not surprised Valencians got so little. They probably brought many balearic islanders with little NA admixture too to repopulate Morisco areas.
The cline is clearly East vs West, not North vs South.
*this is using Guanches samples.
You guys did a big Reconquistada but for the most of part you just reconquered yourself rofl
Islamic Era Andalusian were 20-25 % North African on average but you just crashed them and whipped them out, mostly by bringing lots of Castilian-Basque mixes and marriying them off to Morisco women.
But don't worry there are still many Zionists to applaud your exploits.

Colonists married to Moorish women in recently reconquered territories? What do you want your neck cut off while you sleep, that has never happened.

What do those so many percent refer to dnaY berber or autosomal haplogroups?
 

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