Dreptul Valah
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The paper you attached is extremely nationalistic.Are you aware of that?
You're overreacting, it only has texts from the Hungarian chronicles,maybe next time you have a better reply.
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The paper you attached is extremely nationalistic.Are you aware of that?
Yea. Although i am not 100% sure.E among huns god if you are correct it is big .....
among Scythian could be logic but huns..... that would be a surprise
Yea some of them could be later newcomers from the mountains.Well, I guess "J" made it out of the Caucasus again.
there are 2 E
1 of them is E-V22
https://yfull.com/tree/E-V22/
and the other 1 is E-m123*
https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y31991/
valerius the bulgarian from this forum if you reading this you should be excited as this paper found your clade ancestor .....
as you belong to E-PF4428
We're going to have to wait until the paper comes out.
Lest hope its not like the Caucasus paper thats taking forever.
Many haplogroups from the list have a south Caucasian distribution, is Caucasus ancestry higher in Scythians compared to MBA Steppe ? there is a legend that Scythians migrated from Caucasus to the Steppe.
Herodotus says:
There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria.
On the basis of published data concerning the phylogeography of mt lineages distribution in ancient populations of Europe and Asia, the 19 complete mt genomes of the NPR Iron Age Scythians produced in this study fall into three main groups of different ancestry. The first group of mt lineages is represented by U5 haplotypes that are considered to be a European Hunter-Gatherer genetic component. The second group comprises haplotypes belonging to H, J, T, W and N1b, ultimately connected to the genetic package of the early Neolithic farmers, and the third group includes A, D, M10 and F mt lineages considered to be of East Eurasian origin.
Lest hope its not like the Caucasus paper thats taking forever.
Many haplogroups from the list have a south Caucasian distribution, is Caucasus ancestry higher in Scythians compared to MBA Steppe ? there is a legend that Scythians migrated from Caucasus to the Steppe.
Herodotus says:
There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria.
And these types of posts are what has brought me here to begin with. When you look at the regions where blood type frequencies differ from the ones we call the norm, you have hit so many of the ones standing out, I will be busy for a while helping prove connections me and many others have suspected for a while. Thank you for a great post. Even if only partially proven.Yes, as far as i know, this description of Herodotus is the oldest description of the Scythians. I think the home land Herodotus is describing is between Eastern-Turkey, South Caucasus and South Central Asia. So, the locations of the cultures like the Gonur Tepe, Tepe Hissar, Uruk and the Kura-Araxes should be the root for the Scythians.At the study "Diverse origin of mitochondrial lineages in Iron Age Black Sea Scythians", based on mt-dna, the author made the following conclusion: So, i think the Scythians consisted of three main tribes, just like the tribal structure of medieval Turk tribes(Oghuz, Kipchak, Karluk), and these are the Y-DNA structure of the three main tribes:Group-1(Oghuz)(Mesopotamia, South Caucasus, South Central Asia): E, G, J, L, TGroup-2(Kipchak)(Steppe): I, RGroup-3(Karluk)(East Asia): C, N, O, Q So, the Scythians are a mix of Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerian people who mixed with the Khvalynsk/Yamna people. The Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk people established the Leyla-Tepe culture(and later the Maykop culture) in the South-Caucasus. Then a period later they went to North-Caucasus and mixed with the steppe Khvalynsk people.
So, the Scythians are a mix of Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerian people who mixed with the Khvalynsk/Yamna people. The Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk people established the Leyla-Tepe culture(and later the Maykop culture) in the South-Caucasus. Then a period later they went to North-Caucasus and mixed with the steppe Khvalynsk people.
Craniological studies of samples from the Pazyryk burials revealed the presence of both Mongoloid and Caucasoid components in this population.[6] quoting G. F. Debets on the physical characteristics of the population in the Pazyryk kurgans, records a mixed population. The men would seem to be part Mongoloid and the women Europoid
I don't know why he says what he says but medieval Oghuz Turks could have had the haplogroups he says but also subclades of R, C, N and Q at least.Then, I was the person who noted what Herodotus had said, which is usually misinterpreted, see for example the Wikipedia articles which say pretty much that Herodotus said they came from 'Central Asia' which is false.But 'Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk' are not one thing.Concerning Maykop I think you are wrong but we will find out hopefully.My own views always deviated much from those of Mallory, Antony etc. but I always consider what the data can support so I keep some things to myself. The problem now is that the data can support multiple scenarios.Yes, as far as i know, this description of Herodotus is the oldest description of the Scythians. I think the home land Herodotus is describing is between Eastern-Turkey, South Caucasus and South Central Asia. So, the locations of the cultures like the Gonur Tepe, Tepe Hissar, Uruk and the Kura-Araxes should be the root for the Scythians.So, i think the Scythians consisted of three main tribes, just like the tribal structure of medieval Turk tribes(Oghuz, Kipchak, Karluk), and these are the Y-DNA structure of the three main tribes:Group-1(Oghuz)(Mesopotamia, South Caucasus, South Central Asia): E, G, J, L, TGroup-2(Kipchak)(Steppe): I, RGroup-3(Karluk)(East Asia): C, N, O, Q So, the Scythians are a mix of Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk/Sumerian people who mixed with the Khvalynsk/Yamna people. The Mesopotamian Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk people established the Leyla-Tepe culture(and later the Maykop culture) in the South-Caucasus. Then a period later they went to North-Caucasus and mixed with the steppe Khvalynsk people.
I think scythian mistery seems to be in a last stage to be solved. However, I think it is still problem to prove its orgin by anthropology and genetics b/c of their exogamy. They applied exogamy to even their horses.
Can you elaborate?....But 'Halaf/Ubaid/Uruk' are not one thing......
About that, is there any new informations about that Caucasus study ? About your Herodotus reference, he is talking about the Anatolian land of Cimmerians, Cimmerians escaping Scythians and going through Caucasus in actual Armenia where they eventually became mercenary for Assur and dislodge phrygians in western anatolia.Lest hope its not like the Caucasus paper thats taking forever.
Many haplogroups from the list have a south Caucasian distribution, is Caucasus ancestry higher in Scythians compared to MBA Steppe ? there is a legend that Scythians migrated from Caucasus to the Steppe.
Herodotus says:
There is also another different story, now to be related, in which I am more inclined to put faith than in any other. It is that the wandering Scythians once dwelt in Asia, and there warred with the Massagetae, but with ill success; they therefore quitted their homes, crossed the Araxes, and entered the land of Cimmeria.
It would be like stop calling the Celts, Celts. Whatever the ethnic name those tribes gave to themselves, they where part of a same cultural horizon descending from Sintashta / Andronovo, so the broad scythian term can be applied.We should stop calling all the peoples of the steppe 'Scythians' and assume they were one thing and were speaking one language.
The terms 'Scythians' and 'Saka' wouldn't have existed without the Greeks and Persians who had used them, and they used them mostly for those who were close to them. For example the Greeks used the term mostly for those nomads from Moldova up to the Caucasus, basically mostly those nomads from Ukraine. Even among those labeled Scythians there were some who were considered different either culturally (for example the 'Scythian agriculturalists') or ethnically (the 'Hellenoscythians' and the Gelonians who were speaking 'half Hellenic half Scythian).
And there were groups who were not considered Scythian, like the Massagetae or the Sarmatians often. The Budini in the forest steppe around Gelonians are not labeled Scythian by Herodotus as far as I remember. He mentions various ethne, like the Agathyrsi, the Neuri, the Melanchleni, the Androphagi (the last too are certainly exonyms) etc., the Issedones too.
Can you elaborate?
About that, is there any new informations about that Caucasus study ? About your Herodotus reference, he is talking about the Anatolian land of Cimmerians, Cimmerians escaping Scythians and going through Caucasus in actual Armenia where they eventually became mercenary for Assur and dislodge phrygians in western anatolia.
We should stop calling all the peoples of the steppe 'Scythians' and assume they were one thing and were speaking one language.
And there were groups who were not considered Scythian, like the Massagetae or the Sarmatians often.
Abstracts
In the mid-first B.C. a common pastrol-nomadic culture dispersed over the Eurasian steppe, from Hungary to china and siberia. Carried largely by Iranian peoples, it was distinguished by a "Scythic triad" of characteristic horse gear, weaponry, and art in the famous "animal style." The precise nature and developmental history of this art remain controversial despite much research. Many have stressed antecedents at Ziwiye in Iran while some find sources in China's Western chou culture. Since 1980, the precedence of Arzhan on the uppermpst Yenisey has become evident. A developmental chain from OKUNEVO to karasuk and Tagar(scythian) can be traced for 1000years.
Conclusion:
To summarize, it is possible to state that the truly primary source of the “animal style” are revealed in the stylistic pecurities of the depictions in the OKUNEVO culture.
----
In the black sea, there was formed, on this basis, the special scytho-greek art which evidently transmitted the same subject matter but with richer means, from the standpoint of classical cultures. Many reflections of the “animal styles” can be observed in the arts of Hunno-sarmatian tribes, in Celto-Germanic culture, in Viking culture, and in ancient Rusiian Arts.
Don't do that. I doubt that people confused Araxes with Oxus 'often'.It's better to dismiss the source all together. Because now you present an Herodotus who is 'confused' but essentially correct and imply he had said things he hasn't said. (Scythians coming from the Swat valley?) It is better to say that geographical knowledge was limited and the account can be wrong or not trustworthy than saying he confused a river for another one.(Confusing one river for another would have been possible if they had the same or similar names in some language of the region. Because he was mostly writing things other people have told him. But in his text in particular he places the 'source' of the river in Matiene. Where do you think he had placed Matiene?)I am 95% sure that Herodotus was talking about the Oxus here, which he often confused with the Araxes. If this is indeed so, crossing the river would mean that the Scythians migrated north from Afghanistan and vicinity (Asia), which indeed would place them in neighbourhood of the Massagetae. From there they wander west into the Pontic-Caspian steppe (Europa). I don't know how reliable that account is, but it's interesting that Prof. Witzel places the Proto-Iranians in Central Afghanistan, which he identifies as the mythical Aryanem Vaejah (he's the guy who came up with the Swat Valley Culture = Indo-Aryan connection IIRC).
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