Were pre-Slavic Albanians like ancient Illyrians?

[Aspurg]

albanian also have slavic dna here:
this an albanian

Population	Percent
1	East_Med	25.31
2	West_Med	21.39
3	North_Atlantic	19.62
4	Baltic	19.40
5	West_Asian	10.36
6	Red_Sea	2.53
7	Amerindian	1.03

Albanians being in 19-20 Baltic range in K13 is sign of clear Slavic influence. Proto-Slavs had extremely elevated "Baltic" due to additional admixture with some EHG-like non IE elements. BA Dalmatians also had around 12-13 of Baltic which is derived of CWC IE element. But Albanians being at 19 (Kosovars 20 I think) while being more Southern genetically is a clear sign they pack Slavic admixture. When I removed 25 % of proto-Slavic admixture from one N.Albanian sample, the Baltic was reduced to about 9 % (about right proportion IMO), Thracian sample only had 3-4 %, these "Scythian" Getae samples had more than proto-Illyrians (expected as their language was Satem and even Baltoid). Based on current data, it seems that the two main components in all Balkan populations are proto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic. Even Germanic and other autosomal admixtures seem minor in comparison. Though I suppose for some ethnicities there is visible "Eastern Byzantine" admixture.

 

[Dema]

Albanians being in 19-20 Baltic range in K13 is sign of clear Slavic influence. Proto-Slavs had extremely elevated "Baltic" due to additional admixture with some EHG-like non IE elements. BA Dalmatians also had around 12-13 of Baltic which is derived of CWC IE element. But Albanians being at 19 (Kosovars 20 I think) while being more Southern genetically is a clear sign they pack Slavic admixture. When I removed 25 % of proto-Slavic admixture from one N.Albanian sample, the Baltic was reduced to about 9 % (about right proportion IMO), Thracian sample only had 3-4 %, these "Scythian" Getae samples had more than proto-Illyrians (expected as their language was Satem and even Baltoid). Based on current data, it seems that the two main components in all Balkan populations are proto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic. Even Germanic and other autosomal admixtures seem minor in comparison. Though I suppose for some ethnicities there is visible "Eastern Byzantine" admixture.

Mine is 19.06, average Kosovars should be even lower.

Regarding "Based on current data, it seems that the two main components in all Balkan populations are proto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic." i absolutely agree here. South Slavs are like 50 % Paleo-Balkan and 50 % East Europe.

Thats why i like My Origin 2.0 because it separates these two clusters pretty good. And not like Myheritage crap for example that mixes these clusters into two of their imaginary clusters "Balkan" and "Greek".

South Slavs can score anywhere from 20 to 80 percent of Southeast Europe in FTDNA. For these that are over 50 % Southeast Europe i would say that they are heavy Albanian admixed. While Albanians have pretty low East European cluster which at Ukrainians and Poles goes up to 100 %. If Albanian has over or close to 50 % of East Europe he would be considered heavy Slavic admixed. I never seen such example but i dont doubt there are.

I would say Albanians in average have minor Slavic influence. About 10-15 % in Y-DNA chromosome and 5 - 20 % in autosomal genetics. While South-Slavs have at least double the amount so average at 40 % Southeast Europe. Lets put it this way:

Albanian average:

90 % Southeast Europe, 10 % East Europe.

South Slavic average:

50 % East Europe
30-40 % Southeast Europe
10 % various

 

[Dema]

I would say that Serbs are being pulled away from Croats because of Albanian influence. Same for Montenegrin's. Its pretty obvious.
They assimilated Albanians a lot in last 1000 years in various historical events.

South Serbs and Montenegrins are heavy Albanian admixed, Y-DNA and autosomal wise.

 

[kingjohn]

Mine is 19.06, average Kosovars should be even lower.

Regarding "Based on current data, it seems that the two main components in all Balkan populations are proto-Slavic and Paleo-Balkanic." i absolutely agree here. South Slavs are like 50 % Paleo-Balkan and 50 % East Europe.

Thats why i like My Origin 2.0 because it separates these two clusters pretty good. And not like Myheritage crap for example that mixes these clusters into two of their imaginary clusters "Balkan" and "Greek".

South Slavs can score anywhere from 20 to 80 percent of Southeast Europe in FTDNA. For these that are over 50 % Southeast Europe i would say that they are heavy Albanian admixed. While Albanians have pretty low East European cluster which at Ukrainians and Poles goes up to 100 %. If Albanian has over or close to 50 % of East Europe he would be considered heavy Slavic admixed. I never seen such example but i dont doubt there are.

I would say Albanians in average have minor Slavic influence. About 10-15 % in Y-DNA chromosome and 5 - 20 % in autosomal genetics. While South-Slavs have at least double the amount so average at 40 % Southeast Europe. Lets put it this way:

Albanian average:

90 % Southeast Europe, 10 % East Europe.

South Slavic average:

50 % East Europe
30-40 % Southeast Europe
10 % various

based on results you saw in my origins 2.0 ?

 

[Dema]

[/B]based on results you saw in my origins 2.0 ?

Yeah typical results... Or average however you like.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

The “Mediterranean continuum” study seems to show Balkan populations as intermediate between Eastern Europe and the Sicily/South Italy/Greek islands cluster. Albanians and Greeks can be placed at the northern end of a cluster that includes Sicily, South Italy, Aegean Islands, Crete and Jewish people, with Albanians occupying the northernmost area and mainland Greeks just behind them.

 

[ihype02]

So is the southern shift of Bulgarians entirely (100%) caused by the Native Balkanic people? I don't think so:

Those numbers are most likely hyperbolic but still it proves my point.

 

[kingjohn]

But bulgarians close to southern romanians
There are even some bulgarians i have ibd with
Who are more closer to romanian than bulgarian
So i assume davidski used southern romanian for eurogenes k13


That is to low number

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Bulgaria

 

[bigsnake49]

So is the southern shift of Bulgarians entirely (100%) caused by the Native Balkanic people? I don't think so:

Those numbers are most likely hyperbolic but still it proves my point.

If they were enough to make a difference, I am sure it will show up in their DNA or the DNA of all the Greek refugees from Eastern Romylia or Eastern Thrace.

 

[kingjohn]

study compared all Slavic nations and combined all lines of evidence, autosomal, maternal and paternal, including more than 6000 people for and at least 700 Bulgarians from previous studies, of which 13 were used for autosomal analysis (right image). The overall data situates the southeastern group (Bulgarians and Macedonians) in a cluster with Romanians, and they are at similar proximity to Gagauzes, Montenegrins and Serbs who are not part of another cluster but are described as 'in between' clusters.[8] Macedonians and Romanians consistently appear to be among the most related to Bulgarians by au, mt, and Y-DNA[8] a conclusion backed also by a pan-European autosomal study investigating 500,568 SNP (loci) of 1,387 Europeans and including 1 or 2 Bulgarians,[50] other more or less extensive data sets situate Bulgarians and Romanians as their nearest .[51][52][53
Source:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4558026/

P.s
So slav macedonians and romanians are the closest to bulgarians
And bulgarians and slav macedonians cluster with romanians

 

[ihype02]

If they were enough to make a difference, I am sure it will show up in their DNA or the DNA of all the Greek refugees from Eastern Romylia or Eastern Thrace.

Those numbers are hyperbolic and over 1000 years old, God knows what happened since then. Even a 5% Armenian-like population will make a difference, it will increase the southern shift towards ancient Thracians by 10%-15%. On the other hand a 5% Gothic/Germanic/Celtic will shift them much less towards northern Slavs.

 

[bigsnake49]

Armenians (Bulgarian: арменци, armentsi) are the fifth largest minority, after Russians, in Bulgaria, numbering 6,552 according to the 2011 census,^[2] down from 10,832 in 2001, while Armenian organizations estimate up to 22,000.^[3] Armenians have lived in the Balkans (including the territory of modern Bulgaria) since no later than the 5th century, when they moved there as part of the Byzantine cavalry. Since then, the Armenians have had a continuous presence in Bulgarian lands and have often played an important part in the history of Bulgaria from early Medieval times until the present.
The main centres of the Armenian community in the country are the major cities Plovdiv (3,140 Armenians in Plovdiv Province in 2001), Varna (2,240 in Varna Province), Sofia (1,672) and Burgas (904 in Burgas Province).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Bulgaria

 

[ihype02]

Armenians (Bulgarian: арменци, armentsi) are the fifth largest minority, after Russians, in Bulgaria, numbering 6,552 according to the 2011 census,^[2] down from 10,832 in 2001, while Armenian organizations estimate up to 22,000.^[3] Armenians have lived in the Balkans (including the territory of modern Bulgaria) since no later than the 5th century, when they moved there as part of the Byzantine cavalry. Since then, the Armenians have had a continuous presence in Bulgarian lands and have often played an important part in the history of Bulgaria from early Medieval times until the present.
The main centres of the Armenian community in the country are the major cities Plovdiv (3,140 Armenians in Plovdiv Province in 2001), Varna (2,240 in Varna Province), Sofia (1,672) and Burgas (904 in Burgas Province).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Bulgaria

 

[bigsnake49]

If you actually read the article it mentions the different migrations under the byzantine emperors.

 

[bigsnake49]

Those numbers are hyperbolic and over 1000 years old, God knows what happened since then. Even a 5% Armenian-like population will make a difference, it will increase the southern shift towards ancient Thracians by 10%-15%. On the other hand a 5% Gothic/Germanic/Celtic will shift them much less towards northern Slavs.

How the heck did you come up with those numbers? Is there some quadratic equation?

 

[Angela]

Dema never tires of being wrong.

R 50 is, according to him, based on his yDna alone, from what I can tell, which absolutely couldn’t have arrived during the Bronze Age or with Greek speakers, again according to him, a Phoenician.

I think not.
K13

Distance to:	R50_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
4.11305239	Greek_Chios
4.84214054	Greek_Dodecanese
5.85382781	Calabria
6.25883376	Greek_Symi_Island
6.80722410	Malta
7.26784012	Sicily
7.87770906	East_Sicilian
7.93800353	Campania
8.42941872	Central_Greek
9.38504662	Turk_Cypriot
9.50236286	Apulia
9.56210228	Sephardic_Jewish
10.03718586	Greek_Andros_Island
10.17528869	Basilicata
10.45515662	Molise
10.88114424	Ashkenazi
11.17079675	Abruzzo
11.26311680	Algerian_Jewish
11.82692268	Italian_Jewish
12.34161254	Turk_Crete
12.38046849	Cyprian
12.38046849	Greek_Cypriot
12.41929145	Greek_Cappadocian
12.70745451	Tunisian_Jewish
12.91665978	Greek_Macedonia_Thrace

Dodecad

Distance to:	R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
3.64590181	Greek_Crete
4.67848598	Italy_Calabria
6.36826240	Italy_Campania
6.86542533	Italy_Sicily
7.20798862	Ashkenazy_Jews
7.30781773	Ashkenazi
8.16690884	Sephardic_Jews
8.19503557	Italy_Apulia
9.06851662	Italy_Abruzzo
11.59129846	Greek
12.01711280	Morocco_Jews
12.27131615	Crimean_Tatar_Coast
14.40188731	Italy_Marche
14.55815661	Italy_Lazio
14.67172110	Greek_Cappadocia
14.91652775	Turk_West_BlackSea
15.63521986	Nusayri_Turkey
15.66586097	Cypriots
15.66697482	Turk_Central_West
16.57446228	Turk_Northwest
16.65624207	Turk_Southwest
16.72525635	Turk_Anatolia
17.04039025	Crimean_Tatar_Mountain
17.36559818	Turk_Central_East
17.78656797	Italy_Romagna

So, Sample 50 was NOT, repeat NOT, a Phoenician, or, as they would have been referred to at that time a Syrian.
Dema was once again completely and utterly wrong.

Now, if he had bothered to carefully read the Antonio et al paper, he would have seen that some of the samples do plot in Anatolia and a few perhaps in the Levant.

SO WHAT?

Rome was the capital and biggest city of the Empire until it started to decline. Merchants, traders, envoys from all over the known world came to Rome. Some stayed, some intermarried and blended with the locals. Some, even if they stayed for a generation of two, did not, just as, for example, the Ashkenazim lived in various European countries for hundreds of years without becoming one of the locals. It is impossible to know exact percentages.

What we know from Antonio et al is that the “tail into the Levant” disappeared toward the end of the Empire. As Rome declined, many of the foreigners left, others, being urban dwellers, didn’t survive very well when Rome declined and then fell. Some had blended into the local population, with their signature diluted out of existence.
We’re not talking about simple people living out of their carts or in little mud huts who rarely strayed more than a few miles from home. We’re talking about an empire with people constantly on the move. You can’t deduce that because you find a body from place X in Rome that that person’s descendants were even with him or her and remained to become part of the local population. If that were the case, that “tail into the Levant” wouldn’t have disappeared.

Now let’s turn to sample R1283, which Dema somehow didn’t notice is dated AFTER the time of the Roman Empire.
Eurogenes K13

Distance to:	R1283_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
6.29303583	West_Sicilian
7.49569877	Tuscan
7.84967515	Lazio
7.86441352	Marche
8.02215682	Romagna
8.40445120	Umbria
8.50584505	FrenchCorsica
8.87858097	Abruzzo
9.18773095	Greek_Western-Thrace
9.33910060	Molise
9.99226701	Basilicata
10.02431045	Albanian_south_Albania
10.15925194	Apulia
10.26079919	Vlach_Central-Macedonia
10.26599727	Tuscany
10.69777547	East_Sicilian
10.84585174	Albanian_Albania
10.84985253	Greek_Thessaly
11.11996403	Albanian_north_Albania
11.25952486	Albanian_Macedonia
11.45631703	Emilia
11.47601847	GR_Peloponese
11.49283255	Albanian
11.50075650	Campania
11.64639858	Central_Greek

I don’t see a single solitary person from the Near East there, but interestingly enough I see Albanians.

Now Dodecad…

Distance to:	R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
2.87198851	Italy_Marche
4.18285716	Italy_Lazio
4.48059148	Italy_Romagna
6.91392002	Italy_Tuscany
7.26884665	Italy_Abruzzo
7.32496526	France_Corsica
8.70709200	Italy_Emilia
9.06752039	Italy_Campania
9.26748456	Italy_Liguria
9.58004321	Italy_Apulia
10.16859012	Italy_Sicily
10.57289459	Greek
10.69305850	Albanian_Kosovo
11.79293009	Albanian_North
12.04364636	Italy_Lombardy
12.38184712	Italy_Calabria
12.64299253	Italy_Piedmont
12.68759463	Italy_Veneto
13.48319324	Turk_Macedonia
14.16912488	Ashkenazi
14.20933623	Italy_FriuliVG
14.28690659	Turk_Greece
14.70096595	Ashkenazy_Jews
15.75807452	Swiss_Italian
16.11530639	Greek_Crete

Well, well, even closer to Albanians.

This should be an object lesson. If some people are so ignorant about population genetics that they don’t freaking know you can’t determine ethnicity solely on yDna, and don’t know the autosomal or ethnic identity of a person about whom they wish to express opinion, then DON’T express an opinion. Find another hobby; you have no business getting into discussions about population genetics.

Also, people should stop making such asinine assertions as that all J2-M410 came from the Levant during the Empire. How clueless can you be?

 

[ihype02]

How the heck did you come up with those numbers? Is there some quadratic equation?

I am not really sure what the quadratic equation joke is supposed to parodize. Either way, Goths, assuming they were like modern Swedes are genetically closer to Poles than Armenians are to Thracians. So an Armenian-like population will pull Bulgarians closer in southern direction more than an Germanic one will pull them closer to Northern Slavs.
Plain and simple. But there is also the East-West direction too.

An other example a half Bulgarians and a half Assyrian will end up ploting with the in ''Aegean zone'' without having any ancestral relations with those regions, but it's just the median of his parents genes.

All of the sourthern shift of the Bulgarians comes from the Balkanic populations, but not all of the northern shift comes from Slavs is hypocritical and inaccurate.

 

[Ralphie Boy]

The Dodecad K12b model posted earlier in this thread shows that Bulgarians have way less Caucasus admixture than Armenians, and significantly less Caucasus admixture than Syrians. Greeks have more Caucasus admixture than Bulgarians. Pontic Greeks have a lot of it. Based on that model, Bulgarians are not pulled south by Armenians or Syrians. If anything, they would probably be pulled east or southeast.

 

[kingjohn]

Bulgarians are regular country in the balkan
They cluster genetically with slav Macedonians and Romanians...
Nothing special or unusual in them ...

 

[ihype02]

The Dodecad K12b model posted earlier in this thread shows that Bulgarians have way less Caucasus admixture than Armenians, and significantly less Caucasus admixture than Syrians. Greeks have more Caucasus admixture than Bulgarians. Pontic Greeks have a lot of it. Based on that model, Bulgarians are not pulled south by Armenians or Syrians. If anything, they would probably be pulled east or southeast.

Most of their southern pull is caused by natives just like most of their northern pull is caused by Slavs but not all of it.