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Were pre-Slavic Albanians like ancient Illyrians?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That 14331 Croatia Middle Bronze Age sample is very close to modern northern Italians all the way down to Toscans.
 
Aspurg said:
Interesting.. Thracians have nothing to do with Mycenaeans, superficial similarity based on EEF dominance but the components are different. It seems Bulgarian Chalcolithic no.1 + that R-Z93 Steppe Iranic-like sample (I2163) + little bit of Anatolian. This Z93 sample is a better fit than Yamnaya even.

Target: I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
Distance: 5.1619% / 5.16186673
65.4 I2519_Bulgaria_C_6242_ybp
21.2 I2163_Bulgaria_MLBA_3638_ybp
13.4 I2499_Anatolia_EBA_4604_ybp


Target: SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp
Distance: 6.6909% / 6.69090148
54.8 I2519_Bulgaria_C_6242_ybp
23.6 I2163_Bulgaria_MLBA_3638_ybp
18.4 I0781_Bulgaria_C_6400_ybp
3.2 I2499_Anatolia_EBA_4604_ybp
Click to expand...

Yeah, ancient Thracians do not fit neatly with other populations. They are not that close to Greeks or Illyrians. As far as Myceneans and other Greek Tribes are concerned, there has been the theory that Myceneans might have been the first tribe down to Greece with others arriving later on and the Dorians arriving last. Now we don't really have any archeology to gauge the timing or where exactly each tribe came from.
 
Last edited:
Paternally, Kosovo Albanians are the most Paleo-Balkan people. They will be almost identical to Central Balkan people from Bronze Age/Iron Age.
 
FYI
The 15769 Thracian
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF100, align: right"]7.91786587[/TD]
[TD]FrenchCorsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFC200, align: right"]9.27951507[/TD]
[TD]Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFBE00, align: right"]9.41298571[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFAE00, align: right"]9.87052177[/TD]
[TD]Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA700, align: right"]10.09024281[/TD]
[TD]Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFA600, align: right"]10.11554744[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF7F00, align: right"]11.26628599[/TD]
[TD]Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6F00, align: right"]11.74729756[/TD]
[TD]Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6800, align: right"]11.93531734[/TD]
[TD]Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5C00, align: right"]12.29196486[/TD]
[TD]Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5900, align: right"]12.39404292[/TD]
[TD]Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5800, align: right"]12.41296902[/TD]
[TD]Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3F00, align: right"]13.13371235[/TD]
[TD]Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3B00, align: right"]13.26128953[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Western-Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3900, align: right"]13.31609552[/TD]
[TD]Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3500, align: right"]13.43489486[/TD]
[TD]Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2400, align: right"]13.95051970[/TD]
[TD]Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1800, align: right"]14.28420106[/TD]
[TD]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1500, align: right"]14.37559738[/TD]
[TD]Malta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0F00, align: right"]14.56986616[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0500, align: right"]14.84789547[/TD]
[TD]Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0500, align: right"]14.86604857[/TD]
[TD]Central_Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0012, align: right"]15.53956241[/TD]
[TD]Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002E, align: right"]16.34432011[/TD]
[TD]Vlach_Central-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF002F, align: right"]16.38465746[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Andros_Island[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

SZ19 is also most like Italians, and not northern Italians, but mostly Tuscan and Central Italian
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]SZ19_Hungary_Langobard_1463_ybp[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEB00, align: right"]8.09688829[/TD]
[TD]FrenchCorsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9B00, align: right"]10.43373854[/TD]
[TD]Tuscan[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF9900, align: right"]10.49236866[/TD]
[TD]Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8A00, align: right"]10.94529122[/TD]
[TD]Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8600, align: right"]11.05304483[/TD]
[TD]Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF8400, align: right"]11.11803490[/TD]
[TD]West_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF6A00, align: right"]11.89234207[/TD]
[TD]Romagna[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF5000, align: right"]12.64221895[/TD]
[TD]Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3900, align: right"]13.33156405[/TD]
[TD]Emilia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3300, align: right"]13.50608011[/TD]
[TD]Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF3100, align: right"]13.56941414[/TD]
[TD]Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF2800, align: right"]13.80914914[/TD]
[TD]Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1400, align: right"]14.41916780[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Western-Thrace[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1300, align: right"]14.44291522[/TD]
[TD]Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF1200, align: right"]14.46969246[/TD]
[TD]Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0D00, align: right"]14.62580596[/TD]
[TD]Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF000D, align: right"]15.38814479[/TD]
[TD]Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0012, align: right"]15.51797023[/TD]
[TD]Moroccan_Jew[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0015, align: right"]15.61627356[/TD]
[TD]Sicily[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0034, align: right"]16.52028450[/TD]
[TD]East_Sicilian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0035, align: right"]16.57270044[/TD]
[TD]Malta[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0047, align: right"]17.08087820[/TD]
[TD]Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0047, align: right"]17.08936511[/TD]
[TD]Central_Greek[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0055, align: right"]17.50997430[/TD]
[TD]Vlach_Central-Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FF0057, align: right"]17.54590551[/TD]
[TD]Albanian_south_Albania[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
G25 is a way more powerful tool.

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]BGR_IA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BEFF00, align: right"]0.03716518[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CBFF00, align: right"]0.03973669[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCFF00, align: right"]0.04002928[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Apulia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D0FF00, align: right"]0.04080540[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D0FF00, align: right"]0.04080752[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D3FF00, align: right"]0.04130677[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Basilicata[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D3FF00, align: right"]0.04130794[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D4FF00, align: right"]0.04164920[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DAFF00, align: right"]0.04274486[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Campania[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DCFF00, align: right"]0.04304663[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DDFF00, align: right"]0.04335443[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E3FF00, align: right"]0.04460689[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F0FF00, align: right"]0.04699819[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Calabria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F1FF00, align: right"]0.04720308[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_East[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFD00, align: right"]0.05031313[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFFD00, align: right"]0.05043692[/TD]
[TD]Sicilian_West[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF800, align: right"]0.05128939[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF600, align: right"]0.05178807[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFED00, align: right"]0.05356331[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Crete[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE900, align: right"]0.05438078[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Kos[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE200, align: right"]0.05576806[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE100, align: right"]0.05593646[/TD]
[TD]Maltese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDF00, align: right"]0.05629075[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDC00, align: right"]0.05689945[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDA00, align: right"]0.05718129[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]BGR_EBA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BBFF00, align: right"]0.03666707[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F6FF00, align: right"]0.04818078[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF900, align: right"]0.05124758[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Menorca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF900, align: right"]0.05125800[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF900, align: right"]0.05127313[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF600, align: right"]0.05185474[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF400, align: right"]0.05215998[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_La_Rioja[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFF100, align: right"]0.05270229[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEB00, align: right"]0.05391358[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEA00, align: right"]0.05406821[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE500, align: right"]0.05506509[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Murcia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE400, align: right"]0.05534195[/TD]
[TD]Sardinian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE200, align: right"]0.05560457[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFE000, align: right"]0.05616595[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDF00, align: right"]0.05621862[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDF00, align: right"]0.05631146[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDC00, align: right"]0.05695035[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Eivissa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFDA00, align: right"]0.05715987[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD900, align: right"]0.05740020[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD600, align: right"]0.05809775[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Mallorca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD400, align: right"]0.05835932[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD400, align: right"]0.05837154[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD400, align: right"]0.05839144[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Andalucia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD400, align: right"]0.05851895[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Peri-Barcelona[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD300, align: right"]0.05866806[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Pirineu[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]Scythian_MDA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A3FF00, align: right"]0.03201682[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A6FF00, align: right"]0.03253209[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A6FF00, align: right"]0.03254756[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A7FF00, align: right"]0.03277406[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B2FF00, align: right"]0.03496377[/TD]
[TD]Gagauz[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B5FF00, align: right"]0.03544836[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BBFF00, align: right"]0.03669623[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C0FF00, align: right"]0.03769288[/TD]
[TD]Bulgarian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C5FF00, align: right"]0.03863600[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C6FF00, align: right"]0.03891862[/TD]
[TD]Turkish_Balkans[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CAFF00, align: right"]0.03959110[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CEFF00, align: right"]0.04035029[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CFFF00, align: right"]0.04062652[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D1FF00, align: right"]0.04102057[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Northeast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D7FF00, align: right"]0.04223547[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D9FF00, align: right"]0.04251840[/TD]
[TD]Romanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DDFF00, align: right"]0.04325477[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DDFF00, align: right"]0.04340304[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DDFF00, align: right"]0.04340825[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E3FF00, align: right"]0.04442798[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E4FF00, align: right"]0.04468163[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Izmir[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E7FF00, align: right"]0.04520465[/TD]
[TD]Macedonian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EAFF00, align: right"]0.04585962[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EEFF00, align: right"]0.04675261[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F3FF00, align: right"]0.04769947[/TD]
[TD]French_Provence[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]HRV_IA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7AFF00, align: right"]0.02400696[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #89FF00, align: right"]0.02684022[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9EFF00, align: right"]0.03098048[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A0FF00, align: right"]0.03132283[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A5FF00, align: right"]0.03232243[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B3FF00, align: right"]0.03503135[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B4FF00, align: right"]0.03523518[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B6FF00, align: right"]0.03570296[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B9FF00, align: right"]0.03623112[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C4FF00, align: right"]0.03842617[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C7FF00, align: right"]0.03893473[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Northeast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D6FF00, align: right"]0.04186317[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D6FF00, align: right"]0.04203788[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Mallorca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D7FF00, align: right"]0.04216678[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D8FF00, align: right"]0.04240815[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Eivissa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D9FF00, align: right"]0.04248741[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Menorca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D9FF00, align: right"]0.04263746[/TD]
[TD]French_Provence[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DBFF00, align: right"]0.04294519[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DBFF00, align: right"]0.04303196[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DFFF00, align: right"]0.04368641[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DFFF00, align: right"]0.04378507[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EAFF00, align: right"]0.04596885[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Girona[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EBFF00, align: right"]0.04608396[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Peri-Barcelona[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EEFF00, align: right"]0.04665901[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EFFF00, align: right"]0.04692757[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Penedes[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]HRV_MBA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #76FF00, align: right"]0.02308539[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #7CFF00, align: right"]0.02434146[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #8CFF00, align: right"]0.02752233[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #93FF00, align: right"]0.02875666[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #95FF00, align: right"]0.02916787[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #95FF00, align: right"]0.02929404[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #98FF00, align: right"]0.02982540[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9EFF00, align: right"]0.03092654[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Northeast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A1FF00, align: right"]0.03156581[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Mallorca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A2FF00, align: right"]0.03182241[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Aosta_Valley[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A8FF00, align: right"]0.03293500[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A8FF00, align: right"]0.03297710[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #A9FF00, align: right"]0.03315363[/TD]
[TD]French_Provence[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ACFF00, align: right"]0.03374741[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Girona[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B2FF00, align: right"]0.03486694[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Eivissa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B3FF00, align: right"]0.03515789[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Peri-Barcelona[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B5FF00, align: right"]0.03542780[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Menorca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B5FF00, align: right"]0.03553728[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Penedes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B8FF00, align: right"]0.03607473[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Catalunya_Central[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BDFF00, align: right"]0.03700134[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BFFF00, align: right"]0.03751534[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_French[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C0FF00, align: right"]0.03760157[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Alacant[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C2FF00, align: right"]0.03802862[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Castello[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C4FF00, align: right"]0.03845283[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Lleida[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C7FF00, align: right"]0.03909580[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: distances"]
[TR]
[TH="align: right"]Distance to:[/TH]
[TH="align: left"]HRV_EBA[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #93FF00, align: right"]0.02879148[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Tuscany[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #9AFF00, align: right"]0.03018715[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Piedmont[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ABFF00, align: right"]0.03348532[/TD]
[TD]Swiss_Italian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #ADFF00, align: right"]0.03385035[/TD]
[TD]French_Corsica[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #AFFF00, align: right"]0.03433014[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lombardy[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B1FF00, align: right"]0.03462348[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Marche[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B6FF00, align: right"]0.03563724[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Umbria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B6FF00, align: right"]0.03572884[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Bergamo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #B9FF00, align: right"]0.03630241[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Thessaly[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BAFF00, align: right"]0.03644951[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Veneto[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BDFF00, align: right"]0.03703327[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Liguria[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #BEFF00, align: right"]0.03729837[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #CCFF00, align: right"]0.04001548[/TD]
[TD]Albanian[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D1FF00, align: right"]0.04106993[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Lazio[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #D2FF00, align: right"]0.04124768[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Menorca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #DDFF00, align: right"]0.04338733[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Abruzzo[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E0FF00, align: right"]0.04397374[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Central_Macedonia[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E1FF00, align: right"]0.04409683[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Molise[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E1FF00, align: right"]0.04419141[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Baleares[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E2FF00, align: right"]0.04425962[/TD]
[TD]Italian_Northeast[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E7FF00, align: right"]0.04532127[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Eivissa[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #E8FF00, align: right"]0.04541668[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Mallorca[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EAFF00, align: right"]0.04595456[/TD]
[TD]French_Provence[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #EFFF00, align: right"]0.04691098[/TD]
[TD]Greek_Peloponnese[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #F2FF00, align: right"]0.04741621[/TD]
[TD]Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Still all basically most like Italians, my friend, for whatever reasons.
 
Progon said:
If u remove the Slavic admixture Albanians received during Middle Age then they would have been identical to the Bronze Age Dalmatian (he even carried a Y-DNA common only among modern Northern Albanians), the Iron Age Dalmatian looks like he mixed with Latins of some sort. He got extra WHG admixture something which the Bronze Age sample lacked.

I think, even Illyrians from Albania and inland will be no different from the Dalmatians, maybe slightly more West_Asian and less WHG than that Iron Age sample.
Click to expand...

Linguistically, Dalmatians, Pannonians and those above were different to the "Illyri Proper" so we should expect them to have a different signature than Illryi proper.
 
Progon said:
The Illyrian-Dalmatian samples have more Mediterranean admixture than the average Albanian/Greek and more or less slightly less Steppe than Albanians. Here are the results of a G25 calculator, which is used a lot.


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Progon_scaled
Distance: 2.7935% / 0.02793452
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]49.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]38.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]11.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WH[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: HRV_EBA
Distance: 2.8970% / 0.02897046
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]50.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]31.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]9.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]4.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]MAR_EN[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: HRV_IA
Distance: 3.8417% / 0.03841726
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]61.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]34.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]4.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]



[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: HRV_MBA
Distance: 2.4450% / 0.02444964
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]60.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]33.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

Greek colonizer from Anatolian coasts


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
Distance: 2.4945% / 0.02494530
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]40.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]39.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]13.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: GRC_Mycenaean
Distance: 1.7752% / 0.01775159
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]64.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]12.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]11.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]6.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]MAR_EN[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Albanian
Distance: 2.3822% / 0.02382156
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]36.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]35.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]25.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]2.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 2.0199% / 0.02019890
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]37.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]35.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]26.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 1.7650% / 0.01764966
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]36.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]30.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]26.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]4.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Izmir
Distance: 1.5042% / 0.01504228
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]36.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]29.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]25.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]4.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]3.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]GEO_CHG[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 2.3886% / 0.02388601
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]36.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]32.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]28.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]2.4[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]1.0[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Levant_PPNB[/TD]


[TH="class: singleheader, colspan: 2, align: left"]Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 3.0771% / 0.03077084
[/TH]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]39.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]Yamnaya_RUS_Samara[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]31.2[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Barcin_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]22.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]5.8[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]WHG[/TD]

[TD="class: barchartmode1 nonselectable, colspan: 2"][/TD]

[TD="class: singleleftcolumn, align: right"]0.6[/TD]
[TD="class: singlerightcolumn"]RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N[/TD]
Click to expand...

Are these the results of individuals or averaged results of entire groups represented?
 
Progon said:
Averaged.....
Click to expand...

Thanks. Amazing to see that the old Neolithic farmer populations survived so well in the south Balkans. It seems to reinforce what population genetics pioneers LL Cavalli-Sforza and his colleagues said, at least as it pertains to the south Balkans, that the earlier migrations were the most significant and later migrations, like the medieval Slavs, had relatively less impact due to greater population density.
 
Dema said:
Its probably some kind of Mediterranean genetics that these Proto-IEs didnt have but got later after settling Mediterranean Sea and mixing with natives which actually made Italic tribes, Illyrian tribes, and Greek tribes.

That is why i got Romans so close but Illyrian is so far, because he is fresh arrival and not yet developed into Mediterranean Illyrian as we know them.

Roman (7.945)
Gaul + Roman (8.253)
Gallo-Roman + Roman (8.802)
Roman + Illyrian (10.48)
Roman Hispania + Roman (11.29)
Gaul + Roman Hispania (11.66)
Gallo-Roman (12.57)
Gaul (15.27)
Illyrian (16.14)
Roman Hispania (16.74)

I get Romans at under 8 because they are Romans from Rome from year 500 AD. If we would test Illyrians from 300-500 AD they would be probably even closer to me.

"Illyrian" sample was fresh IE arrival in year 1600 BCE, therefore not yet developed into Illyrians. He had plenty of East European genetics and typical East European mtDNA. He is probably transition from proto-IE to Illyrian and, i would say he was much closer to Proto-IE then to actual Illyrians.
Click to expand...


I really question the authenticity of the Mytrueancestry site. I'm not sure I'd make much of these results.
 
matadworf said:
I really question the authenticity of the Mytrueancestry site. I'm not sure I'd make much of these results.
Click to expand...
This site is 100% legit, its simple genetic distance from modern populations with ancient ones. You even have tools in their website so you can check genome yourself and see exactly on what chromosome you match some sample. Also they did it in average so you can see more or less what are ancient matches for all ethnicities. You can double check all this if you know how to work with genetic and autosomal files. Its all open and there is nothing to be manipulated or hidden.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app
 
bigsnake49 said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That 14331 Croatia Middle Bronze Age sample is very close to modern northern Italians all the way down to Toscans.
Click to expand...
Angela matches him at GD 12.5 and she is top match. Therefore i doubt that anyone matches him much closer then 12.5, while that is not really close, i would consider that mid to far match.

Simply noone matches this sample under GD 10 which can be considered a borderline of close match.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Eupedia Forum mobile app
 
Well, Eurogenes 13 places me at an even closer distance to some of these samples:

[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C3FF00, align: right"]5.73090743[/TD]
[TD]I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD000, align: right"]8.89206388[/TD]
[TD]I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEB00, align: right"]8.08064973[/TD]
[TD]I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Eurogenes places 14331 at a distance of 3.5 to Lombards, just a little more distant to Venetians, and so on.
 
Angela said:
Well, Eurogenes 13 places me at an even closer distance to some of these samples:

[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #C3FF00, align: right"]5.73090743[/TD]
[TD]I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFD000, align: right"]8.89206388[/TD]
[TD]I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table_distances"]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: #FFEB00, align: right"]8.08064973[/TD]
[TD]I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Eurogenes places 14331 at a distance of 3.5 to Lombards, just a little more distant to Venetians, and so on.
Click to expand...
Yeah, its ungrateful to yet give any conclusions but i might try. This GD is just relative distance calculated by some formula according to shared DNA. Therefore GD 5 does not have to be same distance on mytrueancestry and on Gedmatch. However there is quite a few modal Italian groups in mytrueancestry and i checked them all yesterday and it seems that North_Italian group really shows somewhat close distance to 1600 BCE Illyrian sample. Here is results as they stand now on mytrueanItaliabs
By my opinion we need proper Illyrian study where at least 10 ancient bones will be tested from various regions to have better picture.

True Illyrians were anywhere from king Bardyllis to king Gentius. I would even consider Roman and Byzantine Illyrians from Illyrian native lands as real Illyrians also.

I just cant accept 1600 BCE sample as real Illyrian lol. He was most likely Indo-European, or rather indo-europicised by most likely R1b proto-IE.

Furthermore its clear that whatever he was, ancient Indo-European or already developed Illyrian. They conquered entire Italian Peninsula and much further from direction of Dalmatia, which was naturally reached by Indo-Europens earlier then Italy, there we also find 700 BCE Etruscan sample which is same branch under J2-L283 as this sample therefore of same origin and his direct expansion as Etruscian is 1000 years younger.
Therefore its nothing strange why North Italians might be a bit closer to this sample then Albanians. I think but also according to history Illyrians were more prone to Greeks and influenced and mixed with ancient Greeks much more then with Italics. Therefore its possible that their autosomal genetic shifted and combined with Helenic but also with native Pelasgian elements which played important role in creating Greek and Illyrian ethnos.

And that is why Albanians are a bit closer to Greeks then to Italians.

I am pretty confident that if we would test Illyrians from time of Bardyllis and Gentius that Albanians will be closest to them. Just as if we would test Constantine the Great bones he would be closest to Albanians, as his father was Illyrian and mother Greek.

This 1600 BCE Dalmatian sample is simply Indo-European which by mixing and intermixing with locals and out of there later Illyrians, Greeks, and Italic tribes development from.

Open for debate :)

Screenshot_20200614-135910.jpg

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Dema said:
Yeah, its ungrateful to yet give any conclusions but i might try. This GD is just relative distance calculated by some formula according to shared DNA. Therefore GD 5 does not have to be same distance on mytrueancestry and on Gedmatch. However there is quite a few modal Italian groups in mytrueancestry and i checked them all yesterday and it seems that North_Italian group really shows somewhat close distance to 1600 BCE Illyrian sample. Here is results as they stand now on mytrueanItaliabs
By my opinion we need proper Illyrian study where at least 10 ancient bones will be tested from various regions to have better picture.

True Illyrians were anywhere from king Bardyllis to king Gentius. I would even consider Roman and Byzantine Illyrians from Illyrian native lands as real Illyrians also.

I just cant accept 1600 BCE sample as real Illyrian lol. He was most likely Indo-European, or rather indo-europicised by most likely R1b proto-IE.

Furthermore its clear that whatever he was, ancient Indo-European or already developed Illyrian. They conquered entire Italian Peninsula and much further from direction of Dalmatia, which was naturally reached by Indo-Europens earlier then Italy, there we also find 700 BCE Etruscan sample which is same branch under J2-L283 as this sample therefore of same origin and his direct expansion as Etruscian is 1000 years younger.
Therefore its nothing strange why North Italians might be a bit closer to this sample then Albanians. I think but also according to history Illyrians were more prone to Greeks and influenced and mixed with ancient Greeks much more then with Italics. Therefore its possible that their autosomal genetic shifted and combined with Helenic but also with native Pelasgian elements which played important role in creating Greek and Illyrian ethnos.

And that is why Albanians are a bit closer to Greeks then to Italians.

I am pretty confident that if we would test Illyrians from time of Bardyllis and Gentius that Albanians will be closest to them. Just as if we would test Constantine the Great bones he would be closest to Albanians, as his father was Illyrian and mother Greek.

This 1600 BCE Dalmatian sample is simply Indo-European which by mixing and intermixing with locals and out of there later Illyrians, Greeks, and Italic tribes development from.

Open for debate :)

View attachment 12194

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Click to expand...

Dema, I can't debate your assertion when you have no data to support it. We have what we have. When we get more data we'll re-examine it.

I assure you I have no personal interest in whether or not North Italians or Albanians are closest to Illyrians, other than as a matter of interest. It will turn out the way it will turn out.

I also think the Slavic element may be pulling Balkanites away from some earlier samples. By a fluke of history we were spared that set of invasions, and the Germanic invasions didn't have as much of an impact as was once thought, and very little indeed on Central to Southern Italy. So, I believe we better preserve classical era and perhaps even Iron Age Southeastern European ancestry. However, the data will show whether that is correct.
 
Of course Angela and i dont say you or anyone have any personal interes in this. Its simply matter of finding truth since for sure in future when we will have ancient results we will know but until then there is some room and data that opens door for speculations. Anyways i agree that Slavic impact might push Albanians a bit from that sample but according to so far given results its really minor impact. And its not main reason why Albanians are a bit far from this sample, even tho its not that Italians are very close either. My proves for my claims are that Albanians plot close to Greeks while Italians are further regarding modern populations. But then again out of ancient samples Albanians are pretty close to Byzantines and Urnifed Bronze Age samples from Hungary. For example me personally, i am a bit Slavic admixed, we know we had serb female few generations back. So i have kinda more of Slavic admix then usual Gheg Albanian. I might even be on Tosk level of Slavic influence which is greater then Gheg group where i fall as Kosovar. So i want to repost my personal Ancient PCA plot. So take attention at these two samples: "visigoth mixed slav girona (550 ad)" and "scythian southern moldova (290 BCE)". These are my borderline further matches that indicate distant connection. Usually for South Slavs these are closest matches and i believe that because of my minor Slavic admix i see these matches at borderline of being very distant, while as seen below i am very very close and in middle of Urnfield Bronze Age sample and Byzantine Roman warrior which do not have anything with Slavs. Being so close to Urnfield culture and Byzantines tells that Albanians have autosomal genetic continuity at least since these times. Why Byzantine Roman warrior is not close to Dalmatian 1600 BCE sample but rather Kosovar Albanians are his closest match? I bet he was not slavic admixed just as 1000 BCE Urnfields were not. So what i say is that Slavic admix is minor among Albanians and Albanians still plot very good with Romans just as with Byzantines but naturally we expect when we test Illyrians from 300 BCE which were fully developed Illyrians that they will plot close to Albanians. I am sure that Albanians will not test them, we can only hope some foreigners like Americans or Europeans will invest money and do this kind of reaserch because i am sure everyone will be interested in results of ancient Illyrians and that would be very interesting paper.

kE8Tcf0.jpg

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