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weren't those refugees going to save European economy and provide for our pensions?
I don't know who ever thought that, but it must be some politicians who don't have a clue about how the economy works and how it is going to evolve with new technologies (AI, robots). Freshly arrived refugees are always an economic burden because they need years to integrate, learn the local language, etc. before they can hope to start working and pay taxes. But that's in the best case scenario in which refugees are skilled and educated, which is almost never the case. Even the small percentages that could have the right skills will need to find jobs available, when the current trend is to lay off staff and automate jobs as much as possible. The Dutch ING Group, which according to Wikipedia was the world's largest banking/financial services and insurance conglomerate in 2012, has recently decided to cut one third of the staff in the Netherlands and Belgium, which they will replace by elaborate AI programmes. This is just the beginning. Almost all jobs will be automatable within 20 years, well before the majority of those refugees are fully integrated. Therefore they will never contribute anything economically substantial to their host countries and will in the meantime be a huge burden on the already strained public finances. Taxes will have to be raised further to finance their accommodation, food and integration courses. And that is again in the best case scenario, if thousands of these refugees don't commit crimes or terrorist attacks. As I have said before, even if only 0.1% of the refugees are hard-core Muslims that could turn into terrorists, out of 1 million+ refugees, that is still 1000 terrorists. It only took 3 terrorists to conduct the attacks in the airport and metro in Brussels. Imagine how much damage can 1000 terrorists cause. So even if 99.9% of refugees were the perfect kind of immigrants, who can pick up their host country's language in a few months, behave like perfectly upright citizens, are highly skilled in sought-after jobs, integrate easily within the fibre of their host society, and so on, but the 0.1% are terrorists, that is still 0.1% too much. And anyway everybody knows that there isn't any country in the world that can provide 99.9%, or even 50% of "perfect" immigrants if taken at random in the population. And of all countries, relatively poor and predominantly Muslim countries are least likely to provide the right type of immigrants for European society.
As they say just my 2c worth. I just returned from Sweden and I am not under the impression that all the jobs there need some huge skills and high level of Education. I have seen migrants working in Supermarkets filling shelves, cleaning toilets in airports, rail way stations, delivering furniture and so on. I am presuming that others do many low skilled jobs. I don't think in current situation there are any robots to do such work and its work that needs to be done if the economic wheel needs to keep on spinning. I am not demeaning these type of jobs as they are necessary for any society and it would be a disaster if people are not found to do these jobs. So one needs to see the whole picture. I know clearly locally that many sectors have a problem of finding people to work example in Restaurants, Hotels (Catering in general), same in cleansing departments and also hospitals and constrution. If locals are not found to do these jobs what is supposed to be done?
As they say just my 2c worth. I just returned from Sweden and I am not under the impression that all the jobs there need some huge skills and high level of Education. I have seen migrants working in Supermarkets filling shelves, cleaning toilets in airports, rail way stations, delivering furniture and so on. I am presuming that others do many low skilled jobs. I don't think in current situation there are any robots to do such work and its work that needs to be done if the economic wheel needs to keep on spinning. I am not demeaning these type of jobs as they are necessary for any society and it would be a disaster if people are not found to do these jobs. So one needs to see the whole picture. I know clearly locally that many sectors have a problem of finding people to work example in Restaurants, Hotels (Catering in general), same in cleansing departments and also hospitals and constrution. If locals are not found to do these jobs what is supposed to be done?
I heard yesterday (I do not know f its a reality or not) that Middle easterners are much more prone to go back to their countries once there is some degree of safety, but Africans have different ideas and travel to stay. Sweden example hardly have any Africans (at least my opinion from what I seen) while the south of Europe gets mostly African refugees migrants and many other legal migrants from the east of Europe (at least locally)
You are right, but in 10 to 15 years's time robots will be filling up supermarket shelves, cleaning houses, and so on. Amazon warehouses already have robots filling and picking up items from shelves. They are already there. It's just a matter of time and will before supermarkets follow suit. Once humanoid robots with good dexterity become available at low costs, all low-skilled human jobs are over.
Belgium has quite a lot of experience with poor, unskilled, Muslim migrants. 25% of Brussels' population is now Muslim and Maghrebi Muslim neighbourhood like Molenbeek have typically around 30% unemployment rates, but over 50% among Muslims themselves. Most of these Muslims were born here, and many are even third or fourth generation now. Not only are they not becoming more integrated over time, but they are getting more radicalised and now turning to terrorism. I really can't imagine how or why it would be different for other impoverished, low skilled Muslims migrants or refugees. Keep in mind that the Moroccans in Belgium did not come as refugee, but as legal migrants (often through France), who were "vetted" and accepted by the authorities. How much worse could it be with refugees whose background in completely unknown and who often arrive without any ID (or with fake passports or names if they are ISIS) ?
This is the same situation when Europe and especially America where embarking on huge projects such as rail way buildings and other huge infrastructural projects. The projects used to take many years to accomplish and where manned by many people from all around the empires (as it benefits low wages and so on) Probably these people were married and had children in these countries. This is the same pattern as used to happen in classical eras with big urban centers with high economic activity such as ancient Egypt, Babylon and Rome for example. Today we have New York and London. Maybe Dubai and gulf states have a better recruitment policy to avoid challenges with future integration? even though they have a very bad reputation in regards to subhuman conditions where they specifically hire people to do the particular job without ever giving a residence permit. Even though some of their populations are now outnumbered by 'Foreigners' and has been like that for a good number of years. Then there is the Chinese model, where it practically has Zero immigration and the cheap work force is widely available from people in the countryside. I am not sure which Model works for Europe.
This is the same situation when Europe and especially America where embarking on huge projects such as rail way buildings and other huge infrastructural projects. The projects used to take many years to accomplish and where manned by many people from all around the empires (as it benefits low wages and so on) Probably these people were married and had children in these countries. This is the same pattern as used to happen in classical eras with big urban centers with high economic activity such as ancient Egypt, Babylon and Rome for example. Today we have New York and London. Maybe Dubai and gulf states have a better recruitment policy to avoid challenges with future integration? even though they have a very bad reputation in regards to subhuman conditions where they specifically hire people to do the particular job without ever giving a residence permit. Even though some of their populations are now outnumbered by 'Foreigners' and has been like that for a good number of years. Then there is the Chinese model, where it practically has Zero immigration and the cheap work force is widely available from people in the countryside. I am not sure which Model works for Europe.
I don't see what this has to do with the refugee crisis.
Maciamo said:There are plenty of construction projects in north-western Europe, but also plenty of immigrant workers from Poland, Czech Republic, Bulgaria or even Portugal. The US is bringing its cheaper labour from Mexico. The refugees aren't going to be the ones working on construction sites, as one of the reasons former communist-block countries were allowed so early in the EU was to bring cheap labour to western and northern Europe.
And any way in 20 years' time there won't be a need for cheap human labour as robots will be able to build houses or any other job. Politicians are far too short-sighted.
what situation?
which kind of labour force lacks in Europe? explain me
if so, why so many immigrants remain on the streets without a job?
and do you know what are the conditions on the building sites and the factories or for house personel in Arabia?
they work for minimum wages, it is slavery, these peope have no rights at all, many promises are broken and in case of conflict with their employer they have no means to defend themselves
yet Arabia has no problem to recruit them, there are more than enough desperate people in the world, do you realise that?
Are you locked indoors and never go out? you never noticed jobs done by foreigners? You need me to explain to you. I already explained that example in Sweden I noticed lots of "foreigners" doing jobs and i mentioned them by name. There are more of course. And you are asking me to give you a list? You want me to explain to you?
Maybe they are the third and forth generation migrants that Maciamo was talking that entered your country a hundred years ago or maybe refugees who do not have citizenship. You should know better then me.
Exactly, I was just wondering if that would be a good model for Europe as at least those people know for sure they will NEVER get citizenship in those arabian countries. Would you prefer this system since you are complaining all the time about European politicians and their systems?
Read what I wrote and not something else.
I didn't say there were no immigrants at work, on the contrary.
I asked you for what jobs do we need to import immigrants.
what situation?
which kind of labour force lacks in Europe? explain me
if so, why so many immigrants remain on the streets without a job?
Are you locked indoors and never go out?
You fear is paralyzing your logic. Who would have expected 100 years ago that Earth can support 2 billion of middle class on earth today? World only had 2 billion people back then. Who would have expected, that we can feed 7+ billion people and still manage to overproduce food these days? That we can produce 100 million new cars a year? That these cars burn 10 time less gasoline for same amount of HP? That we have technology to take energy straight from sun with solar panels and from atoms? That we could make plastic and fuel off corn? That we will recycle half what we produce and probably everything in 50 years? That we will make fresh water out of the ocean? That we start building things out of ubiquitous carbon?Lefties wont be happy, until everyone in the world lives as well as Americans. Only issue is, that would take about 4.5 Earths to sustain. In the mean time, the 4 year degree is being de-valued, and costs about $60,000. Ad that value on top of working less hours in order to attend school, and we see the main issue. N more can the born and bred American finish School at 17 year old, get a full time job, and make enough to have a family, house, and car. The American dream is dying.....
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