Religion What does religion bring that nothing else can bring ?

[bossel]

There was a research where they took children from different religions and kept them away from any human contact (which I think is really sad to do to a person) to see what they would believe when they grew up. No information was given to them, and they believed in God.

Could you give a source? Never heard of that one.
How were they fed? By milk machines? Chimps as nannies?

It's more like we humans have the intellect to figure it out and put 2 and 2 together.

I'm pretty sure I'm human & my intellect is (well, at least was, did the last IQ test some years ago) above average. I figured out something else.

Of course they are!!! Anything not human made is part of nature.

But you said that "anything that has to do with nature do not have a will of their own". Chimps et al. do have a will of their own.


All questions relating to the Koran have been answered in Mycernius' thread.

 

[belle74311]

More capable does not mean more superior or higher in a hierarchy, IMO.I have three problems with this. Firstly, you are proposing two completely different hierarchies - one between species and one between humans. That makes god sound inconsistent. Secondly, how can spirituality be measured? I'm just as spiritual in my own way as a religious person, but how can I prove it? Weigh my heart against a feather or something? Finally, I have a real problem with the idea that 'more spiritual=better'. My husband is far less spiritual than me - he doesn't really consider the 'big questions' like I do. But he's a much more useful member of society than I am - he cares about social issues - he's a union rep and has helped a lot of people at work. In that sense he is much 'better' than me. As far as 'goodness' goes, isn't his contribution to society more valuable than my spirituality?Now I'm confused. I thought it was spirituality that counts. What does that have to do with how you use your talents?

Hey Tsuyoiko...I'm going to answer this one only because I made a mistake in my choice of wording. The hierarchy is not in spirituality but in righteousness. I appologize for the mistake...my husband corrected me. And I thought it was important to correct this mistake.

I'm not proposing there to be 2 completely different hierarchies, there is a hierarchy among creation...humans being at the top, but there's also a hierarchy within the human race as well. There's nothing contradicting about that. It's like a school. There's 1st to 5th grade. 5th being the most educated so far, but among the 5th graders are the best students and worst students and everyone else in between.

How you use your talents...everyone has different qualities. Some have a talent of memorization, some of art, etc. It's how you use those qualities to give back to society for the sake of God, not for the sake of anything else. (money, power, recognition, people praising you...and the list goes on)

Another thing is that what you said above is according to your understanding. So according to your beliefs, of course what I'm saying you dont' agree with, but I'm just simply talking about the beliefs of Muslims.

It is not upto us to measure righteousness (now corrected from spirituality) among people. You are right, we would not be able to do that. It is up to God.

 

[Mycernius]

I have been thinking for a while on the original question to this thread, What does religion bring. In a sense I think that it helps bring balance to human society and how it progresses. Let me enlarge. Some people will say that theists would keep humans in the dark age with what, to an atheist like myself, are superstitions and fantasy stories. These would be the sort of people who wouldn't go any further than their own valley. A nice cosy world in which a set of moral codes guide humans to live. They set a steady lifestyle, but such a society is prone to stagnation.
At the other end of the spectrum you have the atheist type of personality. These are the sort that would question society and its beliefs. They would see what was in the next valley. They help push humans onwards. The down side is society never settles into a rhythm. Humans are always in a rush and never time to allow new things to take there place in human thought. Such a constant moving can cause chaos and anarchy. In other words the theist personality and the atheist personality are always opposed to each other. To help balance this constant opposition to each other are the agnostic personalities. These are the ones that decide on how society moves forward. They are the ones that help balance the world and what happens and how we progress.
For example during a war humans society must adapt quickly and new inventions and stratgies are always needed. To stay with one way will lose the war. For this the atheist types are needed. They will question and push forward to make new and better weapons ie: The atomic bomb. But when the war is over the agnostic type will reign in the atheistic type because such advancement is no longer needed. The theist type then take over. Society moves at a less rapid speed and the innovations dicovered in the wartime are put to use for the betterment of society. The problems of the new technology are worked out. But all the time the balance is held with the agnostic types.
Religion helps those who cannot keep up with the changing world of the atheist. Ever since we have looked up to the stars we have found out more about our actual place in the universe. 3000 years ago humans believed that the world was flat and the centre of the universe. The greeks discovered the world was round. Suddenly the world got smaller. As we progressed Copernicus and Gallileo said the earth is not at the centre of the solar system. Next the solar system is not at the centre of the universe, the milky way and so on. The Earth is in fact a very small insignificant world in a galaxy of 100 million stars in a universe of billions of galaxies. each adavancement has made us less important in the universe. What religion does is help those who do not like the idea of what we are in the universe. It is something for them to cling to and give them hope and that we are important to something, somewhere.
I hope that doesn't sound too patronising, but remember I am an atheist and thus writing from that point of view.

 

[lastmagi]

for belle et al: if you're interested, discussions about evolution can be found in this thread:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19907

If there, belle, I would request you to give very specific evidence grounded on sound reasoning on why evolution does not work for you.

 

[bossel]

I'm going to answer this one only because I made a mistake in my choice of wording.

If you want to chicken out here as well, then be it. But I still would like to see a source for this one:

There was a research where they took children from different religions and kept them away from any human contact (which I think is really sad to do to a person) to see what they would believe when they grew up. No information was given to them, and they believed in God.

 

[Sensuikan San]

Grandpa has just gotta wade into this one ...! (Gonna be in trouble again - I guess ...!) .... however ...

Just a few questions regarding one or two sweeping and unsubstantiated statements .... I hope that I do not remove them completely from context.

.... there is a hierarchy among creation...humans being at the top, ...

Says who ... humans? I'm not sure that we're even at the top of the food chain! Only history - (and a lot of bacteria) will ultimately record!

On the other hand, mentally disabled people struggle in their life in ways we can not understand, and God willing they even go automatically to heaven because of those challenges.

How on Earth do you know that? Has he/she told you? Have you been there with one? ... or do you just "know"? What's the secret?

There was a research where they took children from different religions and kept them away from any human contact (which I think is really sad to do to a person) to see what they would believe when they grew up. No information was given to them, and they believed in God.

Really? Which God? ... God? Allah? Odin? Beelzebubb? Ozzie? ... or possibly anybody the poor little blighters could talk to ... ? ...and who were these "they" who perpetrated this disgusting and vile act? Were they possibly "humans" ... at the top of God's heirarchical tree ... ?

I'm also alarmed that you found this experiment "really sad" - I found it bloody horrifying!

It is not up to us to measure righteousness (now corrected from spirituality) among people. You are right, we would not be able to do that. It is up to God.

Just what is "righteousness"? What is the acceptable definition? Is it simply the measure of a conviction of faith? If so ... then most of the "righteous" people I've met don't seem to bother about God ... they seem to do quite well measuring it for themselves! (... and seem to score quite high marks!)

And if it is simply a measure of faith ... and 'God' alone is the one who can measure it ... and reward or punish by his/her judgement ... i.e. judge one solely by one's obeisance to him/her alone, then surely this is yet another confirmation of my observation that God is not quite the benign being full of grace that he/she is cracked up to be .... but rather, a mercenary, controlling, occasionally - nay - frequently cruel, calculating, totally selfish monster.

Harsh words to some, I know ... but that's how I see it.

ジョン

 

[Tsuyoiko]

The hierarchy is not in spirituality but in righteousness. I appologize for the mistake

So it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you try to be a good person? That's pretty much what I believe, so it seems we agree! Pararousia (for example) would disagree I think, as for her it doesn't matter how you behave as long as you believe the right stuff.

I'm not proposing there to be 2 completely different hierarchies, there is a hierarchy among creation...humans being at the top, but there's also a hierarchy within the human race as well. There's nothing contradicting about that. It's like a school. There's 1st to 5th grade. 5th being the most educated so far, but among the 5th graders are the best students and worst students and everyone else in between.

I don't think your analogy works. In a school there are two hierarchies, yes, but they are both based on the same criterion: broadly speaking, how much a person knows. The two hierarchies you are proposing are based on two different sets of criteria.

It's how you use those qualities to give back to society for the sake of God, not for the sake of anything else. (money, power, recognition, people praising you...and the list goes on)

What about if you use your talents for altruistic reasons other than 'for the sake of god'? The other reasons you list are all selfish, but there are other reasons people give to society. To use my husband as an example again, he is a union rep because he wants to help people who don't have the confidence to speak out for themselves. Isn't that an admirable use for his talents?

 

[No-name]

I've come to the point where I don't question the motives of people doing good. If they are doing because they are inately good people, or if they are trying to earn either my approval or some pass into heaven- I am perfectly okay with it. (Provided they don't follow it up with something bad.)

Back to the original question: Religion offers significance, certainty and connection. People need these three things and will go to religion or some other place to get them.

 

[Kinsao]

Just randomly (warning: my brain isn't working well at all today)... There has been mention of humans growing up without anyone telling them about the existence of any god(s)(ess)(es)/religion and all. And the feeling that a belief in some kind of deity is put into a person by the influences of those around them - parents, peers, educators, etc. etc. - and left entirely alone without that influence, they would naturally grow up to be atheist.

Which makes a sense.... but..... I was thinking..... surely right at the very very beginning... I mean, when the human race is first evolving or emerging as beings that think/consider about such things... people would have had no idea about any 'god', would they? The first idea of the existence of such a thing must have stemmed from some human brain in order to be perpetuated as it has been.

Rather than it being natural instinct for humans, left alone, to be atheist, it rather seems that it is closer to their natural instincts to invent a god(s), regardless of whether or not it/they really exist.

And, of course, you could say that when human species has become more advanced, developed, educated with more knowledge, that is when atheism comes to take the place of superstitions, too. So I'm not trying to make argument one way or the other... it's not the thread to discuss "does a god exist?" it was just.... a thing I was thinking.

 

[Mycernius]

Rather than it being natural instinct for humans, left alone, to be atheist, it rather seems that it is closer to their natural instincts to invent a god(s), regardless of whether or not it/they really exist.

You might find this strange coming from an atheist, but people left alone would probably come up with a supernatural deity of some discription. The reason? Depending on their development ie: children, they cannot fully explain the world around them. If no-one is to give direction then certain aspects of the world would sem impossible by their standards. Because humans are capable of thinking in complex abstract forms the idea of nature would take on forces they couldn't explain. If no-one has ever told you what is happening in a thunderstorm, would you know what it was? Until the knowledge gets to the point where it can expalin what is happening these things appear to be beyond human abilities, and because huamns would realise that there is nothing on the planet as intelligent as them therefore something more intelligent andd powerful must be doing thses things. It is probably how religions started alnog the lines of supernatural dieties. As time goes by morals and ways of living are incorporated into the life code and your religion as you know it is born. God is a product of mans intelligence and imagination. And it is his intelligence and imagination that will question it and eventually replace God with more rational explantions.
Now you might find this odd coming from someone who said on #45 It is not in mans nature to believe in God. Maybe not, but it is mans nature to create a God, whether it is something beyond our comprehension or himself.
Just to take you even further back:

So lemme make things clear...I'm not Christian, I'm Muslim. And I am not in favor of the theory of evolution. It is called a "theory" because it is only an idea. If it was proven it would be called a FACT of evolution.

Couple of things.
1. Even though it is a theory there is more proof than relgion can bring into the matter.
2. Creationism is also a theory, with a lot less proof than evolution. At least evolution has a fossil record and genes to back it up. Creationism uses blind faith and texts written by long dead people who had no idea how life and the universe works

 

[Frank D. White]

Brings me.....

requests in the mail for money.

Frank

:blush:

 

[No-name]

The word "theory" could carry the connotation that it is an assumption based on limited knowledge- there is definitely a connotation of uncertainty in the popular usage of the word.

"Theory" in science is a functional term- which denotes: "A set of statements or principles devised to explain a group of facts or phenomena, especially one that has been repeatedly tested or is widely accepted and can be used to make predictions about natural phenomena." (MW) It carries no connotation of uncertainty, conjecture, or assumption. When we discuss scientific "theories", they aren't educated guesses, but principles and formulas with predictive value.

(Not bad for a Christian...)

 

[strongvoicesforward]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaijin 06
I thought the Bible says human has dominion over all beasts somewhere?

I think that many of our animal lovers will disagree with that.

Yes, we do. Thanks, Maciamo, for pointing that out.

Since the Bible has never been proven to be the WOG (Word of God), this man made document at its arrogant self assignment, self serving action, of denegrating and relegating animals to eternal oppression and slavery, is built and perpetuated on a false premis.

As people reject superstition and bizarre assertions and move towards reason and compassion, more and more animals will come closer and closer to escaping this padlock from the yolk around their necks.

History has shown us and the Bible has been responsible for large scenes of history where compassion and mercy have been totally bereft. It is time the bible is swept into the dustbin or into the pages of myth along with Zeus and other discredited false religious doctrines. More will benefit from the freeing of the minds, as did many benefited from not having to worry about angering a pantheon of gods and goddesses.

At least, let`s tax them or subject their claims to laws protecting from fraud.

Liberation for the animals, Liberation for the minds from fraud.

 

[No-name]

What do you have agains Zeus?

 

[Mycernius]

History has shown us and the Bible has been responsible for large scenes of history where compassion and mercy have been totally bereft. It is time the bible is swept into the dustbin or into the pages of myth along with Zeus and other discredited false religious doctrines. More will benefit from the freeing of the minds, as did many benefited from not having to worry about angering a pantheon of gods and goddesses.

The Q'uran has also been responsible for the same things, but you don't seem to attack Muslims with the same vehmence that you attack Christians. Why is that?
As far as I am concerned all religions are myths and will eventually be consigned to the pages of history, but it will be a long time coming.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

The Q'uran has also been responsible for the same things, but you don't seem to attack Muslims with the same vehmence that you attack Christians. Why is that?
As far as I am concerned all religions are myths and will eventually be consigned to the pages of history, but it will be a long time coming.

First off, I am not "attacking." -- I am discussing, debating, and prosecuting that which I see as a fraud. That is my opinion. I support that through using examples in the BWOG against itself. I am nerely not making assertions. I am backing my opinions up with supporting verse.

I am not debating the validity or invalidity or fraudulent claims of the Quran because that is not what this particular thread or the other contentious thread is about, is it? If you make a thread about the Quran and I feel like posting in it showing why I believe it to be false, then I will. It could be that I don`t know as much about the Quran. But, declining to comment on the Quran bears nothing about what I know or the validity of my arguments againts the BWOG. They are separate issues and the only thing that connects them is that they are religions and both were spawned from the Judeic religio culture/stories.

We agree that religions are myths and that all will be consigned to the pages of history. I, unlike you, however, would prefer to speed up the process by exposing them for the frauds that they are -- or the one I am in my opinion certainly is.

 

[No-name]

I agree with Mycernius. You are attacking.

Religion brings peace.

Religious intolerance brings conflict.

 

[No-name]

back to the topic: 2006 has brought with it trials already- this week my family has experienced a car accident, a major stroke and cancer. I have spent most of this week, exhausted running from hospital to hospital- worrying, praying-- contemplating.

The question is: what has religion brought: It goes deeper than mere words- into something sublime and ineffable...but here is the bare outline: My faith has given my family and I comfort, strength, and peace. Christianity is often looked down upon as a crutch- well, this week we needed a crutch and thank God that it was there. My extended family from two churches in two cities has been there for us 100%. The pastors have visited and prayed and supported- without them I would not just be worried about my mother-in-law in ICU, but whether my father-in-law is eating and resting and taking care of himself. Life has hardships- you can face them alone, in your own strength in a Godless universe for absolutely no purpose. Or you can face them as part of a community with the comfort of eternity, with the acknowledgement that all things have a purpose.

 

[strongvoicesforward]

I agree with Mycernius. You are attacking.

Religion brings peace.

Religious intolerance brings conflict.

No, I am not attacking. I am debating. We`ve gone over this before.

Law, reason, mercy empathy, kindness and compassion bring peace. They need not be premised on superstitions.

Any kind of intolerance brings conflict. You and all should be free to practice your beliefs, as well as anyone should be free to voice opinions about or against your belief while regarding the right of each to try and change their minds on topics held by each. Voicing and exercising the right to pose opinions against something does not equal intolerance because that is not seeking to deny one of the right to do something that is permissable by society.

I afford you your right to practice your religion. I would never try to ban it or forcefully oppress and repress it by physical exertion on my part. I am merely endeavoring to convince that superstitions are not to be held up as Truth -- just like opening an umbrella will bring bad luck is also not based on any reason or Truth -- just fears.

btw, sorry to hear of your family`s difficulties in the New Year. I hope things work out for the best.

 

[No-name]

In my experience my faith has brough peace. I have personally seen the effect in my life and in the lives of believers around me. Christianity is a faith of mercy, empathy, kindness and compassion. I have seen this first hand over almost three decades. It is not a superstition.

Voicing your opinion in such a manner as you have been doing, demeaning, argumentative, agressive opposition is an attack. If I went to a foreign nation and walked around judging their language, food and customs...denigrating their most sacred texts in the most disrespectful manner I could think of, refering to their dieties as fairy tale kings, and their belief system as silly superstitions it would be unacceptable...you would be an ethnocentric bigot. I fail to see how this assault of yours is any more acceptable. This is not about discussion, debate or capital "T" Truth- it is a shrill, meanspirited, and hateful excersize in intolerance.